Saberlock Sure Winner Everytime!!!!!!

[Waspie]

Oh well, that was a horrible analogy, then. =)

 

Well, how about if.. You're back in the early nineties again, and you go to your friend's house to play Street Fighter 2 on his Super Nintendo Entertainment System. He greets you at the door, proudly showing off his newest birthday present.. A gamepad pre-programmed with every single move for Street Fighter 2. Seeing as you're a big fan of Street Fighter 2, you decide to play him anyways.

 

It's a very close game, but he's firing off Dragon Uppercuts and Fireballs ad nauseum with a single button press, while you're doing your best to avoid them. Every time he beats you, he proceeds to tell you how great he is at Street Fighter, and how you harsh suck because he keeps beating you.

 

How do you feel?

[*T¥RANITH*]

Originally posted by SnowMongoose

Yeah, yeah, hacking falls under that heading...

But as I explained, hacking is beyond the scope of these scripts.

(Knowing how to script is just an advantage one gains from long experience with game engines...its coo)

Snow

 

If we can refer to CS again:

In CS there was a script going around. The anti-recoil script.

It's about 3 pages long of pure scripts. It eliminates the recoil of your gun while you are firing for you.

Now if you think that this isn't a cheat I don't know what you think is. It has been banned at all professional leagues (LANs etc.) and many anti-cheat programs have tried to counteract it. This is an example of how scripts can equate to cheats.

I used a few scripts myself. Well, ok so only one, it changed the colour of my crosshair every time I pressed my mouse, but it's not like this gave me an advantage over others. I can see how it would be a cool and fun thing to have saber colour changing every time u attack (in fact I might do it ) but a script that basically does button presses for you really IS cheating.

 

I liked that analogy of the SF2 game btw, quite appropriate. You're basically getting a 3rd party program to play the game for you. If you are ad enough that you have to write programs that play the game for you, either stop it and go into programming, or play the game PROPERLY and get better at it.

You will never get better at it, possibly worse, if you let your scripts do all the work for you.

 

Ok so I am aware that this script does not mean you win every battle, but I was playing the other day with this guy, and I kept trying to purposefully get him into saber locks because I knew he wasn't good at them (exploiting other people's weaknesses is one of the important things to learn how to do in this game imo). By doing this I dispatched him reasonably easily, I had found a weak point in a potentially difficult foe's defenses (he was quite a good duelist). In the 4th saber-lock, something strange happened, I was about to push him to the ground, when suddenly his saber came shooting up into the middle where I had to click like fury just to keep on even grounds with him. This happened every saber-lock after that, and he took 'half a second' to come into effect every time.

I asked him later if he had a script, and he replied:

 

'Only because you were using one'

 

Is JKII destined to go the same way as counter-strike?

[SnowMongoose]

Well, time to define some more stuff.

 

When I think Script, I think mebbe 1 to 10 lines of code at very most....normally one is all that is needed.

 

Something like a recoil hack is so far outside the scope of what the vast majority of scripters ever construct that it cannot be called a script....what we are talking about ****s with the game engine in naughty ways, while a script to DFA or win a saberlock ony has the effect of executing one move.

 

I disagree with the idea that these scripts can play the game for you. The SF2 analogy almost works, but falls short when you realize that this is a 3D game, and as such you can dodge to the sides, meaning avioding attcks is not just a matter of blocking or backing away.

The analogy also falls short as the situation there is much more dire...

instead of dealing with a direction + attack + possibly jump, in fighting games you are dealing with half/quarter/full circles and 2 or more attack buttons. Having a machine do a 2 second button combo is a different story than having the computer do DFA for you

Full on cheats are the only thing that can really play for you to the extent that you guys are talking about, these scripts, though making it easier to execute moves, still rely on the player to aim and time them for them to work.

It's wussy of them, but it is OK.

I dont care how many times some idiot tries to DFA me, I wil still either dodge or push his ass off me!

 

I'm just not really concerned about scripters for now.....hackers mebbe a lil bit, but not really scripters

(again, I consider recoil hack hacking, though it was scripted...)

 

Snow

[leelink]

Listen guys, here's the deal, writting a script for this actually puts you at a disadvantage because you cannot hack the guy after he falls down and even writting the script doesnt gaurantee a win. It might prevent you from falling down when the match ends, but you could still be swinging wildly because of the script. because the lock times vary it is not possible to time your script to the exact moment a saber lock will break. If you guys tried using the scripting process then you'll know that its hard to end the script at the exact moment you want to end it. its better just to do it yourself, maybe you want to backkick the guy after. with a script you wont be able to choose your next move without pausing for a moment to end the script.

[Kurgan]

How do you feel?

 

I feel like buying my own gamepad, so I can level the playing field, and the gamepad company gets richer as a result. ; )

 

Its the same way with the scripts, if you use them, others will use them to compensate, assuming the scripts are THAT GOOD to begin with.

 

Think about the rapid fire joystick/gamepad button question again guys... I think I have a valid point there, since the effect is the same.

 

joysticks are different though. they might have the ability to do autolock on (or whatever its called), but using it as a movement or aiming is not that great.

 

True, but most of the time you can still use the keyboard mouse in addition to the joystick. Heck, with one hand I can aim with the mouse, and use the buttons on the joystick as my "keyboard" with everything programmed perfectly and in the right spots. Just an example....

 

Are you going to say that it's okay to spend $10-50 on a joystick to win saberlocks, but not to write one line in a text file to accomplish the EXACT SAME THING?

 

Heck, the joystick might even do a better job than the script! Is it still cheating? If the joystick method is okay, let me know, I'm just curious.

 

I can program my gamepad right now to press a button repeatedly and put it on one key when I hold it down (which I can use to win a saber lock, and get up quickly if I lose), without ever touching JK2's console or code. Am I cheating?

 

I guess this is the same as the kick/vote thingy. Either Raven removes it from the game and you can't use it period, or people are allowed to use it and that includes putting up with the abuse of it.

[JediGhost[SITH]]

It's cheating.

 

#1 The makers didn't intend for you to do it.

 

#2 It's an unfair advantage

 

#3 How would you like it done to you during a saberlock? It's cheating.

 

It's an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, making it a cheat.

[Kurgan]

It's cheating.

 

#1 The makers didn't intend for you to do it.

 

Why did they include the scripting feature then? They knew somebody would be able to write that script didn't they?

We'll see if you're right, if they remove scripting in the next patch.

 

Or maybe they feel that leaving in scripting, despite how it might be abused, is better than removing it.

 

#2 It's an unfair advantage

 

As I pointed out, not necessarily, if you can still pound the button faster than their script (sure your hands might be tired, but you might be in better shape than them). Or if you have the same or a better script, or a joystick...

 

#3 How would you like it done to you during a saberlock? It's cheating.

 

If I used one of the above methods, they would have no advantage over me, and I might have on over them. People join games with different levels of skill anyway, it can't always be perfect. I'd just suck it up and move on, chances are I wouldn't lose the game just because of saberlocks anyway.

 

It's an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, making it a cheat.

 

Not necessarily. And anyone can write the script, anyone can buy the joystick.

[SnowMongoose]

Thanks Kurg...

I was afraid I was gonna have to do what you did.

lol, at least some people are verbose in their explainations of why we are so wrong!

Scripts forever!

(but not hacks!)

 

Snow

[Waspie]

I can see where you're coming from, but I haven't made my point clear or something.

 

I'm flat-out sick of people obviously using scripts. I wouldn't mind the instant-DFA if people would just pull it out once or twice in a match.

 

As it stands, 90% of the time I can beat a leapin' DFA fool, but there's always that 10% when I inexplicably just blow up because I went too close to him or something. Of course, whenever this happens to idiot makes sure to deride me at every opportunity.

 

Of course, now I don't even bother going in so close, instead opting to just toss a saber their way. Of course, now I'm a "n00b" again because I "toss too much." They DFA repeatedly, but I'm a sucky player because I use the same counter to a move I KNOW they're going to do.

 

All I can say is that I'm no "n00b," because I'm actually fairly proficient and can duel without my saber toss. These idiots are indeed cheating.. They're cheating themselves. They can act all big and tough, but take away their scripts and they're nothing. They use it as a crutch.

 

And as for "the developers allowing people to write scripts" being in the game making it alright, that's not very valid. God gave me the ability to punch nuns in the face.. Does that make it alright? =)

The scripting engine is inherent with all Quake engine games, and taking it out would be a major hassle. I have to blame Raven for making "fighter-style" moves in a Quake-engine game, but I have to blame them half-heartedly, as it's quite innovative and probably the reason I really like JKO. =)

 

So, in conclusion: Use scripts if you must, but understand that you're cheating yourself.

[*T¥RANITH*]

Ok so let's look at a different method majority opinion.

Look at the poll.

'Nuff said

[Ko'or Oragahn]

Each game comes with its endlessly cheating or not debates, especially the ones based on Q3's engine.

 

People, just give up.

 

None of you'll be able to change the community, and maybe only a few would change their minds on the subject. As it's only a matter of point of view, just give it up.

 

These cheating debates are useless.

 

If you want rules, make a mod. If you want rules, play into some official stuff tournament where you'll have referees on your back.

 

So stop complaining.

 

You'll soon realize that you're losing your time.

[power_ed]

Originally posted by Waspie

 

God gave me the ability to punch nuns in the face.. Does that make it alright? =)

 

 

hehe.. i kinda like that explanation

 

Allthough what Kurgan said sounded pretty right too..

 

Well.. I'm not gonna use that script, simply coz I like to play the game. Loosing or winning, hmm.. yes it's always nice to win, but Who am i fooling? Thats not me playing if i have every possible combo/saberlockthingey binded to a key? I didnt pay 50$ just to let my scripts do the hard parts for me..

 

I dont think this is a cheat at all, as Kurgan said, U can duplicate that very same effect simply by using a joystick/pad with autofire on.

 

But tell me, doesnt it make you feel better if you win that saberlock all by yourself?

 

 

 

OT: I really want to write a script to myself coz my place looks like a dump sometimes...

 

u guys think that:

 

Bind x "wait;takeouttrash;wait;dothedishes;wait;cleanupmess;"

 

..would do the trick??

 

..or would it be considered as a cheat

 

:D

[SnowMongoose]

sounds good...

 

but you know you would remove your X key within 12 hours!

 

Bottom line is, until the script plays the game for you

(including target aquisition, movement, etc),

its OK.

(stupid **** like recoil hacks dont count, this definition is for JK2 only!)

 

Scripts forever! go lightsaber disco!!

 

Snow

[Udi]

Originally posted by Ko'or Oragahn

Each game comes with its endlessly cheating or not debates, especially the ones based on Q3's engine.

 

People, just give up.

 

These cheating debates are useless.

 

So stop complaining.

 

You'll soon realize that you're losing your time.

 

Oh ok, shall we just not have any discussions anymore?

 

I thought that was what a forum was for....

 

In a few weeks maybe another hundred people will have voiced their frustration (or otherwise) at this.

 

We may not change anything, but you trying to tell me that there is no chance of any of Ravens people reading this?

 

I think that if there was a major uproar about a subject (not that this is), that Raven would take notice and fix it.

[Waspie]

Heh.. I'm not saying they should "fix" it, as in all likelyhood they can't. =)

 

I'm just saying people should use restraint if they actually want to say they're good at playing the game.

[DarkMadMax]

If most of ppl consider blocking script "cheat" .What u gonna call scripts for performing kicks, stances special moves etc? What you gonna call a man who binds and scripts force powers,weapon selection , movement keys in a manner so he can have access too all of em faster than causal player (who doesn't like to bother with configs and uses standard "wasd" layout) ? That man surely got an advantage over another .But this advantage is not cheat ,it was implemented by dedvs to make game interface more customizable and conveninet . Cause different ppl prefer different configs and devs leave to ppl to configure interface the way they want .Since q1 the things were this way . But some ppl are lazy so much that they dont find time to learn how to use it . And start blaming all others that they gaining "unfair advantage" and call em cheaters. Scripting requires no special knowledge ,scripting is supported by engine feature ,scripting was invented in order to

facilitate games controls . And if u don't use it its only your fault and you cannot blame anyone else for using it .It's like blaming by someone who doesnt have mouse other ppl that who have it .

 

p.s. Sorry for poor English grammar .

[Ko'or Oragahn]

Originally posted by Udi

 

Oh ok, shall we just not have any discussions anymore?

 

I thought that was what a forum was for....

 

In a few weeks maybe another hundred people will have voiced their frustration (or otherwise) at this.

 

We may not change anything, but you trying to tell me that there is no chance of any of Ravens people reading this?

 

I think that if there was a major uproar about a subject (not that this is), that Raven would take notice and fix it.

 

Mmm... lol.

 

Fixing ?

 

Just an example : For Quake 3, id has been releasing an incredible amount of patches and even now, as the last patch is now given and no more will come out, you still have this kind of threads and a lot of people disagreeing. There will always be unsatisfied people.

 

So as I said, until you start your own mod or competition, just saying that sucks and that doesn't won't change the problem, especially if the scripts are based on functions that the game is also based on.

 

The only thing you can do is agree to disagree and join the ones that share the same point of view.

 

If you're posting here because somehow you still believe you'll be able to change a few player's mind, you're already losing your time. Maybe you'll convert some to your side (like some of your friends), but one thing that I noticed is that it's quite hard to convert to your ideas a whole bunch of players that you originally disagreed with.

 

An official patch fixing this case may look as the right way to put an end to this debate, but then you'll have players disagreeing with that new rule and try to get rid of it by any means, mostly with mods.

 

So this leads to what I was saying : Try to make a mod.

 

Btw, I doubt Raven could do something about that, because if they wanted to fix the "hit the button or use a script" problem, they would have to block functions like "action" and you couldn't play the game anymore.

 

...

 

Well, there could be a possibility : Make the program detect each binded line that use more than one function along the "action" one and simply ignore them.

[Waspie]

Different binds ARE NOT the same as scripts, DarkMadMax.

 

Binds allow you to have every basic command at your fingertips. Scripts allow you to string together several basic commands, allowing you to pull of a "special" move with a single keystroke, which isn't how the designers intended it. If they had, I'm sure they would've included an "instant DFA" button, or something like that.

[tomservo51]

Originally posted by Darth Viersaan

I betcha half the people who said it is a cheat copied the script and put it in their JK2MP.cfg

 

LOL!

[Tekken]

Man, why bother even scripting this?

 

Just do what I do; when in a saber lock, quickly alternate lightly clicking the mouse1 button with your index and middle fingers.

 

Geez, are you guys still clicking it with just your single digit?

 

Doing this, I'm able to also switch to Red (mouse wheel click bound to saberstyle) so I can finish him off when he falls.

 

Took me 10 secs to figure this out, compared to the amount of time people have spent trying to script this.......more time for gaming for me!

[Mertado]

Fixing bind-scripts (disallowing them) would be rather easy if Raven wanted to.

 

I saw a buddy of mine tapping his mouse and the CTRL key at the same time and having some pretty good luck with it. Combined with Tekken's idea, that's just 2 of many more ways to approach this problem without the need for scripting skills.

[drallvekk]

ok listen.... i have never won a saber lock but i have tied some how ever i usually lose outright! i have attack bound to mouse one and space bar and i do a drum roll on them when i enter a saber lock and i still lose! i am certain that i am just as fast as anyone else at clicking the £ucking buttons (i can do a real drum roll like nobodys business) but i think it may be my connection speed or ping spikes or something, anyway it's definately not my skill level. i'm great at judging lag and countering different styles of combat but the saber lock is the only thing i dread. (if we both had a counter and a timer and were put the test of clicking the counter faster i would not lose every time period) i want this script could u post it so i can start it with a button push and stop it with a second button push?

[Waspie]

I wish there was more of a way to gauge who's winning, too..

 

Maybe they could make some kind of "tug of war" bar..

[hardasanut]

go ahead and flame me for this message, since i won't be going back to read any replies (not that i don't care specifically about this cheating issue (i do, it presents much philosophical muddling that borders on a buddhist mantra), it's just that i'm such a noob with forums in general that i have yet to figure out how to keep track of the messages i post (besides writing down the url); also because i think this post will help ease a lot of the tension that has built up in this thread).

 

why not ask raven designers who designed jedi knight 2 what their opinions are on about the script capability? they put the blasted capability in; they must have had a reason to put it in; if the use of the script falls outside of their reason(s), then either the use of the script is an exploit/cheat/unfair advantage, or just a poor oversight which may be dealt with in future patches.

 

unfortunately, i cannot address the overlying issue of what constitutes cheating. besides, many others have already addressed the issue, and i don't feel it economic to me to repeat (and likely bungle) the issue with my noob philosophe (with the 'e' just for fashion).

 

the philosophical conflict in this thread may go on only as long as those posting wish to prolong it; it is doubtless that a definite conclusion on the issue of cheating in general will be reached in this thread (if it does so conclusively, then congratulations, those involved will have contributed to the *genuine* enlightenment of the human race, assuming that the message gets across).

 

my suggestion of asking raven what reason they had for the scripts serves to place the jk2 script debate into the creators, hopefully easing any tension in the player-posters, and thereby providing a means to get everybody back to just playing and beating the ish out of everybody else; and on top of it all, to have fun.

 

thank you.

 

god bless america.

 

----

oh, if anybody is forgiving enough to indulge a forum noob's laziness to research, then could that anybody please give me a down-and-dirty guide to forums and keeping track of one's posts/replies to posts?

 

or, if anybody wishes to reply specifically to me about what i have written, or to congratulate me on my enrapturing oratory, or to berate me for being obseqious (or for mispelling/misusing the word "obseqious"), please do so as well.

 

since i have already said that i will likely not be able to find my way easily back to this thread short of copying the url (forgive me since i won't do even that) then both of the above may be done by sending email to me at jbetonio@uci.edu

 

oh, for some pseudo-academic anti-plagiarism, i will state that the "asking raven" suggestion isn't entirely my own. the idea was hinted at by those posters who wondered what raven intended for the script, but didn't explicitly express the idea. and, to add, the idea does assume that one may ask raven (and have a good chance of being answered by raven).

 

jbetonio@uci.edu

[hardasanut]

btw, i'm not writing raven.

 

"and when the citizens realized that they could not end their civic dispute, they laid their weapons down and joined as one to present their case to the king. the king knew what needed to be done to restore peace in the kingdom and did so, but it was the wisdom of the citizens which began the rebuilding."

 

"i'm getting senile in my youth."