Raven: Are you even WORKING on a patch? (bump until someone answers)

[ArtifeX]

Can we please have someone at Raven at least tell us whether you're working on a patch?? Everyone here keeps talking about, "the next patch" with regards to bug fixes (Saber Throw missing saber, Hands-only Kyle model, etc.) and game balance. Yet, no one really knows if there is even a patch planned let alone what will be in it.

 

Everyone bump this ad infinitum until we get some answers!

 

^bump!!^

[creamy]

OR... someone could write a nice little txt that all the thread readers copy and paste and send to raven via email. i think that would give us an answer dunno if they gonna answer on the forum slim chanse of that IMO.

[Skyro]

At least with Blizzard Entertainment, you KNOW they're working on patches. There's usually a patch already ready by the time the game gets to the stores*. And with Battle.net's forums overflowing with Blizzard representatives answering questions left and right, you end up knowing most everything about the game and any patches planned. Their support is truely amazing, every company should strive to emulate them.

 

But, like you said, we don't even know if there IS a patch in the works for Jedi Knight II. It's a good chance there is, but we've heard nothing. That needs to change!

 

____________________

* What, you're thinking Blizzard rushes out their games before their ready? HA! You don't know Blizzard then. Ask anyone.

[BigHairyWookie]

This is Raven you're talking about here. Of course they are working on a patch. And a free map pack too...

[NewBJedi]

That was one of the points of my other thread, though I guess it seemed like I was saying too many great things about Raven:

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49130

 

Basically, ask LucasArts about updates and communication - it's their job.

[digl]

They are working on a patch.

I'm not from Raven, but I know there is a patch coming.

So no more bump

[ArmchairAthlete]

I want a patch. Blizzard patches and supports their games that are years old, and they patch alot. They are getting very aggresive on cheaters in Diablo II (20,000+ cheaters banned). They actually talk to you regularly on their forums. Don't belive me?

 

Click here:

http://forums.battle.net/war3-general/

 

Ah, questions answered by Blizzard employees left and right. I sure wish Raven would get their act together, JKII is my first Raven game so I'm not familiar with them. But it seems they have abandoned us. Blizzard would have patched it if it was their game by now for sure.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by ArmchairAthlete

 

Ah, questions answered by Blizzard employees left and right. I sure wish Raven would get their act together, JKII is my first Raven game so I'm not familiar with them. But it seems they have abandoned us. Blizzard would have patched it if it was their game by now for sure.

 

THIS is my point.

 

Tell LUCASARTS about this, not Raven.

 

Notice the forum name - http://www.lucasforums.com ?

 

Stop blaming Raven they aren't running the show, LucasArts is!

 

If you have problems with your car, do you go directly to the engineers (Raven) of the machine or do you go to the dealership (LucasArts) you bought it from?

 

http://www.lucasforums.com = Car Dealership.

 

Do you expect the engineers to talk to you about the designs, flaws and fixes, or do you expect to talk to the car dealership management/sales crew on the issues and they will relay message back and forth?

 

Hrm . . .

[Skyro]

So what you're saying is that we should be telling Lucas Arts to get their act together because THEY'RE the ones who're supposed to be talking to us?

 

Two things:

 

1) We should tell them to start talking to us... because they don't? Seems like it, really. Back to sqaure one.

 

2) Assuming Lucas Arts actually was talking to us, they're not exactly the ones who made the game from my understanding. I belive your analogy of the car dealership may be inverted. The way I see it, Lucas Arts didn't have a lot to do with the game, so why should they be the ones who answer our questions? They're not the ones who would know a lot about it. It's like asking the lead artist about a compatibility issue or something. Yeah, he's worked with the tech guys, but it's not his field.

 

Am I incorrect?

[XManny]

Originally posted by ArmchairAthlete

I want a patch. Blizzard patches and supports their games that are years old, and they patch alot. They are getting very aggresive on cheaters in Diablo II (20,000+ cheaters banned).

 

20,000 people? Twenty Thousand? Good one. And even if, by banning half of my customers online I sure make many friends.

 

Originally posted by ArmchairAthlete

Ah, questions answered by Blizzard employees left and right. I sure wish Raven would get their act together, JKII is my first Raven game so I'm not familiar with them. But it seems they have abandoned us. Blizzard would have patched it if it was their game by now for sure.

 

Yeah, they would also unbalance the game to hell. Diablo II was really buggy when it came out, and Blizzard had their asses worked off fixing the **** they created. That's why the patches. Raven releases a game that is almost bug-free. Oh, bad bad Raven!!

[NewBJedi]

Jedi Outcast - the whole game is about Star Wars.

 

Basically Raven is contracted to develop the game, but all final say goes to the publisher, because it's the publisher's game.

 

LucasArts owns Jedi Outcast, Raven does not.

 

If you want things fixed, talk to LucasArts and they will talk to Raven.

 

It's like any management/ownership level problem.

 

If you have problems with your plumbing at a place you rent, do you talk to the plumber yourself, talk to the city about the water system, or do you speak to your landlord who owns the building?

 

Raven = developer.

 

LucasArt's = publisher.

 

Jedi Outcast = LucasArt's game.

 

Raven does not own it.

 

MOH:AA = property of EA Games not 2015 - in fact, 2015 is no longer the developer of the game.

 

Publishers are the ones who are completely responsible for what happens to a game - sales, support, patches. Development teams that are contracted, are just that, contracted.

 

It's much like purchasing a house. You deal with the Real Estate agent, insurance and bank, over all issues involved in purchasing, repairing, etc, as you buy it. You don't go talking straight to the construction workers who made the house, unless its some sort of fixer upper.

 

If problems occur due to that deal (purchase) you talk to the Real Estate agent, insurance, or bank and they can spend time and money on fixing anything that wasn't resolved or fell through the cracks - in order to keep good relations and maintain a decent reputation.

 

In this case Lucasarts is your Real Estate agent, insurance, and bank.

 

Raven, who did an exceptional job, are the construction workers.

 

Sorry for the redundancy, just trying to make it clear, that what happens to JK2 is entirely up to LucasArts not Raven.

[Zek]

ChangKahn informed us some time ago that they were working on a patch but had not yet finalized all the stuff that needs changing. I don't know what their progress is now. For what it's worth, he mentioned they were(at that point) taking a look at Heal, Grip and Drain for balance.

[NerfYoda]

Raven seems to be made up of a bunch of cool folks. I'm sure theyre working on a patch. As for why none of them are replying to any of these threads... they don't really HAVE to. This isn't a Ravensoft forum. It'd sure be cool if they posted here, but they're under no obligation to do so. Besides if Raven spent all their time replying to end user forums they wouldn't be working on the patch, right?

[Skyro]

Originally posted by NewBJedi

Basically Raven is contracted to develop the game, but all final say goes to the publisher, because it's the publisher's game.

 

...

 

If you want things fixed, talk to LucasArts and they will talk to Raven.

 

Yes. Jedi Knight II isn't Raven's game.

 

... how is this a counter to my comments?

 

They developed it. They coded the game, drew the artwork, adjusted the speed of lightsaber swings, thought up and implemented force powers... they're the ones to talk to about the game. You've amitted it, yourself.

 

In fact, I notice that everything you said didn't conflict with what I had to say at all. I don't remember saying anything like "It's Raven's game, so let's have them talk to us, and not Lucas Arts."

 

Even you just said that once we can talk to Lucas Arts, they end up talking to Raven anyway. You're encouraging people to talk to Lucas Arts, NOT Raven, because "They don't own [the game]?"

 

"Hello, this is a programmer from Raven Software."

"Nice to meet you. I have a question; are you guys going to change ___ at all in your next patch for Jedi Knight II?"

"No, I'm sorry, you're not allowed ask questions to us directly. See, we don't actually own Jedi Knight II legally. That's Lucas Arts' game. Ask them your question."

 

"Hi, I'm from Lucas Arts."

"Hey there. I was wondering; are you guys going to change ___ at all in your next patch for Jedi Knight II?"

"Good question. I'll write an email to one of the programmers at Raven about that, and I'll get back to you."

 

What's the point? Why is there any discussion about this? Do I really have to say any more about it? Isn't it already obvious enough?

[Vestril]

"Hello, this is a programmer from Raven Software."

"Nice to meet you. I have a question; are you guys going to change ___ at all in your next patch for Jedi Knight II?"

"No, I'm sorry, you're not allowed ask questions to us directly. See, we don't actually own Jedi Knight II legally. That's Lucas Arts' game. Ask them your question."

 

"Hi, I'm from Lucas Arts."

"Hey there. I was wondering; are you guys going to change ___ at all in your next patch for Jedi Knight II?"

"Good question. I'll write an email to one of the programmers at Raven about that, and I'll get back to you."

 

What's the point? Why is there any discussion about this? Do I really have to say any more about it? Isn't it already obvious enough?

 

Errrrmmm, the point is that Raven won't bother with a patch unless Lucas Arts wants them to? Because its not their game?... At least that is how NewB explains it--I don't really know, but I trust him, he's a smart fellow (or she...)

[Necro]

thats what im afraid of

 

LucasArts and EA are both crap for patches and support. companies that have 100% on that are Valve and blizzard.

[digl]

I think no one here knows the details about the contract between LEC and Raven, so no one can say what obligations Raven has or has not about doing a patch.

[Vestril]

I think no one here knows the details about the contract between LEC and Raven, so no one can say what obligations Raven has or has not about doing a patch.

 

Isn't the point of this post to get the attention of someone who knows those details and knows wheter or not a patch is being released? So far what has been put out is mostly speculation, but I would think a lot of it is rather trustworthy since it follows a fairly solid line of reasoning. What's more it wouldn't be a forum if we didn't endlessly debate things we can't change (oh and I definitely include myself in that group )

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Skyro

 

Yes. Jedi Knight II isn't Raven's game.

 

... how is this a counter to my comments?

 

They developed it. They coded the game, drew the artwork, adjusted the speed of lightsaber swings, thought up and implemented force powers... they're the ones to talk to about the game. You've amitted it, yourself.

 

In fact, I notice that everything you said didn't conflict with what I had to say at all. I don't remember saying anything like "It's Raven's game, so let's have them talk to us, and not Lucas Arts."

 

Even you just said that once we can talk to Lucas Arts, they end up talking to Raven anyway. You're encouraging people to talk to Lucas Arts, NOT Raven, because "They don't own [the game]?"

 

"Hello, this is a programmer from Raven Software."

"Nice to meet you. I have a question; are you guys going to change ___ at all in your next patch for Jedi Knight II?"

"No, I'm sorry, you're not allowed ask questions to us directly. See, we don't actually own Jedi Knight II legally. That's Lucas Arts' game. Ask them your question."

 

"Hi, I'm from Lucas Arts."

"Hey there. I was wondering; are you guys going to change ___ at all in your next patch for Jedi Knight II?"

"Good question. I'll write an email to one of the programmers at Raven about that, and I'll get back to you."

 

What's the point? Why is there any discussion about this? Do I really have to say any more about it? Isn't it already obvious enough?

 

I didn't realize this thread was about your ego.

[NerfYoda]

Basically you need to follow the chain of command. Customer talks to LEC. LEC talks to Raven. We're LEC's customer's, not Raven's. Sure we can try and suggest things directly to Raven, but since LEC is the ones writing the checks for Raven they'll follow what LEC says & possibly take our suggestions into account.

 

Now in a perfect world Raven would listen to the consumer directly, and that may happen, but don't get too mad if it doesn't. Remember, Communism works in a perfect world too.

[Skyro]

I didn't realize this thread was about your ego.

 

Hm. Perhaps you're right. It did come off a bit heated, didn't it? Well, I guess that's just what happens when I try to convince someone of something. I just push too hard, and then they just sidestep and I fall over and everyone laughs at me. See? I'm doing it right now! Ha!

 

 

What was the point of this post again? Oh yeah, I would love to hear from official personages a lot more often (greater than zero would fill this request). That's all.

 

ha...?

[NewBJedi]

Awe, don't feel bad, it's the nature of Internet debate.

 

You're cool.

 

I agree with you there. 'Someone' needs to respond to us.

[Vestril]

Remember, Communism works in a perfect world too.

 

This is totally off topic but I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who uses that line, I use it in arguments all the time and people give me the most exasperated looks...lol

[Chewie Bakker]

Good things come to those who wait.

 

The game was released at Easter, which was late March. That means that the game has been out for 31 days. A month.

 

Patience, people. Raven did an unreal job to get the game out as quickly as they did, and now there are people getting grumpy because the game's been out a month without a patch? :rolleyess

 

[NewBJedi]

This was a rough draft to paper I wrote a long time ago for school - I can't seem to find the full paper which was pretty long.

 

 

Marx was on a mission. He believed that religious belief and superstitious dogma kept the human mind in chains. His purpose, in the German Ideology, was to free mankind from the shackles of ideology, so that that man may venture into an analysis of truth and fact, pursuing reality as something material and observable, not simply a question of arguing neither semantics nor principles. He believed that human activity (Species Being) is the true path to understanding the historical process of how humankind arrived at its present condition. Through such understandings of human activity one can abolish mysticism, ideology, and idealism, and truly understand the laws of nature as an observable force, not simply as an abstract philosophical model.

 

Historical Materialism

 

Marx replaced the notions of natural states and rights (of human nature), with human activity, or rather ‘species-being’. History must be evaluated by human activity by neither conjecture nor ideology: “The writing of history must always set out from these natural bases and their modification in the course of history through the action of men” (150). The truly observable history is always material, and to consider consciousness and conceptuality merely by-products of it, and to see that society’s interchange develops from it, not by dialogue or thought alone:

“This conception of history depends on our ability to expound the real process of production, starting out from the material production life itself, and to comprehend the form of intercourse connected with this and created by this mode of production (i.e., civil society in its various stages), as the basis of all history; and to show it in its action as State, to explain all different theoretical products and forms of consciousness, religion, philosophy, etc., etc., and trace their origins from that basis and growth from that basis; by which means of course, the whole thing can be depicted in its totality (and therefore, too, the reciprocal action of these various sides on one another)” (164).

To Marx ideology is also known as ‘false consciousness’; basically it means to understand reality or human existence one must show tangibility and factuality in order to have a true empirical grasp. Human activity precedes consciousness according to Marx; “Life is not determined by consciousness, but consciousness by life” (155). If one tries to understand human history through states of consciousness, it will only lead to a comprehension of said consciousness instead of articulating the true circumstances and physical properties associated with actual human history through activity, resulting in observable production and outcome, handed down from generation to generation. Historical materialism observes production just as an archeologist uses artificats to study an ancient culture – it is the product of activity that is the only means to understand why a society is shaped as it is:

 

“It shows that history does not end by being resolved into “self-consciousness” as “spirit of the spirit,” but that in it at each stage there is found a material result: a sum of productive forces, a historically created relation of individuals to nature and to one another, which is handed down to each generation from its predecessor; a mass of productive forces, capital funds and conditions, which on the one hand, is indeed modified by the new generation, but also on the other prescribes for it its conditions of life and gives it a definite development, a special character” (164-165).

Marx believes that the concepts of culture are not independent of human activity, but directly related in a cause (production) and effect (consciousness) relationship:

“We set out from real, active, men, and on the basis of their real life-process we demonstrate the development of ideological reflexes and echoes of this life-process” (154). What Marx means by ‘ideological reflexes and echoes of this life-process’ is basically consciousness, schemas, and our ideas about existence – whether they are morality, religion, philosophy, or politics. Continuing onward Marx further explains that:

“The phantoms formed in the human brain are also, necessarily, sublimates of their mental-process, which is empirically verifiable and bound to material premises. Morality, religion, metaphysics, and all the rest of ideology and their corresponding forms of consciousness, thus no longer retain the semblance of independence. They have no history, no development; but men, developing their material production and their material intercourse, alter, along with this their real existence, their thinking and the products of their thinking” (154-155).

The end product of human history is the material; “By producing their means of subsistence men are indirectly producing their actual material life” (150).

To understand what it means to be human, and to follow the humanity activity one must study and realize the product of man. What causes humanity to be separate from the animals is not necessarily the intrinsic ideas that make one human but rather activity and production. This is clearly stated by Marx:

“Men can be distinguished from animals by consciousness, by religion or anything else you like. They themselves being to distinguish themselves from animals as soon as they being to produce their means of subsistence, a step which is conditioned by their physical organization” (150).

 

More to follow…

 

Economics

 

Marx deduces that labor and production can only measured through historical human activity; “The writing of history must always set out from these natural bases and their modification in the course of history through the action of men” (150). Labor is the activity or the means, and production or rather the product itself is the end itself. That only way one can scientifically understand the process of human social evolution is to observe what has been created and produced by such peoples on a material level. “By producing their means of subsistence men are indirectly producing their actual material life” (150). Ideas and concepts are meaningless without human activity; this is a pre-symbolic interactionist, pragmatic, approach, yet more focused on the empirical.

 

In summary: “Economics is how humans interact and transform nature into something useful and productive” (Stolz, 1999).

 

A brief outline of Marx’s idea can be easily sketched:

 

Mankind

/ + \ Production

Economics = | = Labor

\ + /

Nature

 

As you can see with the outline, economics according to Marx is the relationship of man to nature. This reveals that labor is the means and production as the end. This is fundamental to understanding Marx’s theory of how human society developed. It did not develop solely on the basis of ideas and concepts, but rather physical activity, and the fruits of such activity. This is fundamental understanding to a proper analysis of human history.