Myst Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Sorry idlemind, let's not squablle on non-JKII things. Truce Hey anyway, I was playing some games tonight on 1.03 and the cheapest stuff I could see was: -Blue Stance has this spin move that 1hit-kills anybody who fell on the ground. The trick was to pull opponent at close range, making him fall and then doing that move. It was extremely effective. I countered via absorb quite good, since the pulls and pushes were keeping my force pool at level. But still, that blue stance spin move that hits the legs is a one hit kill deal and may need to get patched big time. It's too fast for it's effectiveness. You may also try countering by double tapping jump to the side if you get knocked down. It gets harder for this move to be pulled on you in that scenario. Other than this I enjoyed the patch. But it's not as "addicting" as the old system. Like I said, both versions have something to offer. Old = more fun, new = more like a real saber fight. Truly, a mix between the two would be GOLD. Myst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petezilla Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Although the patch has some good new changes in it, like weakened drain and more power consumption heal. I must say there are just too many bad ones. The bad changes are all saber wise, now I don't even mind that they diminished all saber swings damages. But in combination with the HIGHLY (perhaps VERY HIGHLY) increased saber slash blockability, the saber has become a boring weapon which makes basically all saber only servers frustrating and annoying. I'll give you a perfect example of what i mean. not so long ago I was alone faced to five saberers on a TFFA, now theyre all running after me and I'm facing them. I do a saber slash and go into the mix hitting the first guy dead on, to my surprise he blocks the slash getting hit for probably 0 damage. The other guys of course slash at me with four at once while this is happening. Even more to my surprise I block all their slashes and getting hit for 25 shield damage. the battle then still took some 4-5 minutes before i finally went down, a battle at which I look back and basically say I was bored to death by fighting it. The thing is what should've happend was that the first guy died, and I shoud've followed 1 second after having killed him. (thats what would've happened in the previous version anyway). I think it's simply absurd that saber slashes do less damage than things like force lightning and the like. what's even more absurd is that you can block while your guard is down which means you are NEVER open for attack, and it makes the battles very random, no matter what slash you do (right, left, left-back, lunge, DFA, jump slash, spin slash,...) everything can be blocked by a lucky guy. making the saber-only-no-force matches into the-lucky-guy-who-randomly-blocks-and-who's-opponent-at-the-same-time-doesn't matches. The decreasing of the slashes damage in conjunction with the high blockabillity has also increased the posability that players run for health, or get reinforcements by the time a duel (whitout the being in duel mode of course) nears its end. making normal saber conflicts which where very fun in the first version. so anoying and boring in this one. I thought the saber fights where quite technical in the first version, but in this one they are so chaotic and random that even the greatest of losers can beat the best experts with pure luck. I sincerely hope the next patch has revised saber fighting and saber damage issues because here in this version saber fighting is totally not as enjoyable as it once was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Skill is not the issue. Before this patch, I reveled in the thrill of competiton; if a skilled player crushed me, I adapted and learned to crush him back. Saber combat is now devoid of the elements that made it great. They fixed a few bugs, and then proceeded to bowdlerize the game into an unrecognizable, boring, slashfest. The whole experience has undergone a total conversion. They have gutted it and happily provided us with an impoverished version: the richness and strength of the original saber combat system has been consigned to oblivion. I am not referring to the bugs that needed to be corrected, I am referring to the feel of the game, the action, the feedback: it has been mislaid or worse, abrogated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluff the tiger Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 95hps for a heavy stance hit? Why just heavy and not just add more damage to other stances too. I agree that some battles need to be more decisive but making heavy stance taking 95hps is ridiculous. You said it's more fun and satisfying... how so? Oh, one big heavy slash and follow by lightning or grip and the guy is dead. What so fun about that? I'm not complaining about red stance because I use it too, but my point is 95hps is waaay to much. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm, maybe 95 % is a bit much, but did u read my post closely ? I said all damage for all stances should be upped to make the game more satisfying. When I say satisfying I am refering to the feeling that players got in a game like quake2 when u railed someone who had just spawned or the glee you had when u blew someone up with a pipebomb in duke. Basically, I subscribe to the view that something that takes more of skill should be rewarded with more damage/satifaction - like using heavy stance effectively. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, I agree with you that the block system is way over done. I think it should be tone down a bit or make it manual where you have to turn your saber towards your enemy to effectively block. But then you state that all strikes be blocked except for DFA. WTF! Again, why just for the red stance? Instead make it unblockable for all of the stances special moves. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A good blocking system I think would be a key to block but it will only last for about 3 seconds before you have to take your finger off the key then press it again to block again - leaving players who continuously block open for strikes. Does anyone think that the movebackwards key could be used for this ? Also, what is this thing with attacking the red stance ? It is called the heavy stance because it should have the most powerful blows surely. I use all the stances for different situations - each stance should be more useful for certain things - maybe another idea would be to make the light stance (which is pretty much useless right now) unblockable or something. Raven have succeeded in balancing all the stance - but now they are all as useless as the original light stance was because of the automatic blocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewBJedi Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 They simply need to do this (besides un-nerfing drain and grip): Saber attacks - same as new patch. Saber blocks - much more toned down - more like the non-patched game. That is if they want a decent compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nill the Mean Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Which is what I have been saying all along. But they don't need to tone down the blocking that much. The radius needs to be smaller. I just tested it and I found it works almost 180 degrees, if not more. Apart from that, the sabers should clash less during attack animations. And more damage on all attacks, apart from backslash which needs to be toned down. AND FISTS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demolisher Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 I don't feel like reading through the thread, but has anyone else have the game flickering now? For example, single player Nar Shaddaa streets, the lights all flicker and it's really annoying. Also, I heard that Raven did not fix nor address the freezing issue and am really dissapointed about that . I also think that multiplayer sabering is harder now . I also think that the single player enemies should've been toned down too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dvlos Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Originally posted by Nill the Mean Which is what I have been saying all along. But they don't need to tone down the blocking that much. The radius needs to be smaller. I just tested it and I found it works almost 180 degrees, if not more. Apart from that, the sabers should clash less during attack animations. And more damage on all attacks, apart from backslash which needs to be toned down. AND FISTS!!! NO the sticky rocket launcher from JK1!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nill the Mean Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Originally posted by Dvlos NO the sticky rocket launcher from JK1!! God! I forgot all about that alt-fire... Man it was funny. Would actually be cooler than the homing alternative, yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dvlos Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Man that was HOURS of endless fun... I remember getting close to an opponent slapping to rockets on an enemy and force jumping over them to watch them explode under me. Haha..if your going to make guns please make them THAT KIND OF FUN!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 all you have to do is stop playing I never posted a rant, complaint, or whine before the patch; and I never will. Despite much abuse, I will state my grievances and my opinion about a once great piece of software. Those that are happy with this new conversion, I rejoice with you. I bought JK2, enjoyed it, started to get involved in the community and clans; I even began to upgrade my computer to augment my enjoyment of the game. Then Raven changes the entire Matrix sucking the marrow out of the code. Do not tell me that to 'just stop playing' is justice. Raven altered my software once I got it home, months later. I would never have purchased this game in this form. It would have stayed on the shelf at the computer store with the other sloppy combat systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTF_Nemesis Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Ever since i started playing JKII online ive been a heavy stancer and won a fair few with it but all i got was MOAN MOAN MOAN MOAN, with this new patch any wins i manage to get feel far more satisfying so if i hear anoter moan ill send the lads round .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maugan_Ra Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 If you were beating people left and right with heavy stance only, then you need to play against better people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippo Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 well, while i was gone all day, some of you made some really ****ty points in defense of the game. let's begin: Post patch FORCES you to actually get good cuts into people and not just swing in the bold hopes that the tip of your lightsaber hits the enemy and deals 30%. This was insane, and has been fixed. after playing a few FFAs and duels yesterday, i honestly have no clue how you could say this. FFA was already anarchy so i won't go there, but duels have changed completely for the worse. i was trying yesterday to play like 1.02. timing my swings in accordance to the opponents actions. the impossible block rate made it futile to say the least. then i switched to freak-out random swing mode. and guess what? i went from 0/1 to 6/1. 6, count 'em, 6 people were killed by my wild and mindless swinging. the person who beat me was also mindlessly swinging. i couldn't even mutter "GF" for fear i would vomit in my mouth. geez stop complaining and get used to the new system, its better than "ill spin around randomly and watch my saber go through the other persons and kill them" ok. there is no way in hell you were good at this game prior to the patch. if you were, you would know spinning around as much as possible was probably the easiest thing in the world to counter (besides DFA). just because someone spinned, and killed you, doesn't mean it's an abuse. it means he most likely saw you running at him, swingin' your saber like a madman, and thought to himself, "ok, you are dead, in 3..2..1" hell yellow stance was NOT messed up.....i still use it and it works just fine for me, if not better. see above. Many of the things you've learned pre-patch that you can no longer "use" post patch are mostly abused parts of the game. -Turning DFA -Touching an opponent with the end of your blade when in heavy stance -Switching stances to account for opponent's health -Random swinging. ugh. 1.) i never used DFA, in my life. 2.) i don't use heavy either but many people i've fought did. and who cares if you just get hit by the tip. in my opinion the heavy user deserves the hit. i really suck with heavy so i say give them any hit they can get, because otherwise it would be even easier to beat a heavy user. of course, now it really doesnt matter since blocking is out of whack, heavy is almost useless (from what i've heard). 3.) i don't switch stances, but some of my best opponents did. the are probably the hardest people to beat, because it is hard to pull off effectively. saying switching stances is abused is really you saying you hate people who can do it. 4.) as stated random swinging has increased 10-fold since the patch. If you think that post-patch is all about random swinging, that is wrong. It totally contradicts the fact that blocking is so easy. If it's so easy, that means random swinging is just gonna be stopped. it really doesn't matter if you time it, swing at the back, or poke 'em, it will be blocked! As someone said above, he played single player, then went to multiplayer and was "lost". Already this proves that the person enjoyed single player dueling enough and was out to play it online. you missed the point of that. i meant as great as i thought the single player was, as soon as i adjusted to the multiplayer, i could see how much more refined saber combat could be. after player multi for a while, i played a little single player again, and saw just how bad it is in comparison. of course single and multi are completely different beasts. Well, I'm gonna play both 1.02 and 1.03, don't know about the rest of you guys. I like the new system, but the old system was a classic and I'm not giving it up. you could just as easily play a little single player, and a little mutliplayer for the same effect, without screwing the rest of us. I say we all do our best to make the people who hate the patch enjoy it! anything short of a cash bribe won't be enough to make me like this patch. people who were good at this game see right through this patch. they can see it is completely watered down. give me one valid reason why saber combat has changed for the better, besides: fights last longer, fights look cooler, fights take more skill. these are all non-points. because it's obvious fights take little more than a monkey with his fingered taped down on the fire button wildly moving the mouse around to score kills. and yes most of these quotes are from myst, mainly because he wrote the most and had the least boring of the defense posts. so take it as a compliment myst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Originally posted by JRA_Wolf in another thread-- Quoting DIRECTLY from my email inbox: "We're not reverting to anything, complainers are just going to have to get used to it all over again, I guess... :/ " Michael Chang Gummelt Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II Raven Software http://www.ravensoft.com" Put up or shut up, thanks bye. Mr. Gummelt: The term is not complainer; it is customer. It is surprising to me that a company with the reputation of Raven would pigeonhole some of its customer base in such a fashion. I for one do not wish to be relegated to the complainer pile due to my opinion of your recent renovation and utter alteration of the code and combat system. When my coworkers and I purchased this software, there was no need for us to ‘get used to it.’ It was on the shelf in the format that originally interested us. We were not enrolled in a free beta testing project. The product won awards in the production version. Notwithstanding a few bugs, the combat system was fabulous and engaging. Following your mandatory patch, it is neither. It is hardly a patch, it is a new game: a game that I would never have invested time into. In the future, please show consideration and decency to your customers by avoiding disrespectful labels. Sincerely, Fitzwilliam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippo Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 wow. i am stunned at the unproffesionalism of mr. gummelt. i'll be sure to never buy a raven game ever again. of course that doesn't mean i can't play raven games. out of respect to game developers i never warez. but the total uncaring of mr. gummelt's attitude makes me believe raven isn't worthy of such respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idlemind Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 omg. so....angry....can't....contain.....rage..... That email has to be the...the.....GAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! WTF? I thought I was pissed before, but at least I was tryingto be constructive because it might help something. But now I can see that nothing I say, no valid explanations on the diminishment of gameplay, NOTHING is going to make the game good again. Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick this amazes me. Raven has basically turned around, given everyone the finger, then walked away laughing as we all stand in stupified horror. I now don't mind the people that like the new patch. If you want to waste your time pretending that your getting good at a system that is broken beyong all repair and offers no room for improvement beyond backstabbing everyone, then go ahead and continue to walk in circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Raven has basically turned around, given everyone the finger, then walked away laughing as we all stand in stupified horror. Welcome to my nightmare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessicka Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 patch sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 Since I am getting a bit loopy; please excuse my 'Princess Bride meets Raven Software' scene *Cue Music* Fitzwilliam: “Why did you make drastic changes to a wonderful game?” Raven: “Die COMPLAINER!” Muhahahahahah … Fitzwilliam: “I … Uh … ‘Mommy….’” *Raven steps forward and a 1.03 lightsaber flashes into life* Raven: "To the pain," means the first thing you lose will be your feet below the ankles, then your hands at the wrists, next your nose.” Fitzwilliam: “And, then my tongue I suppose.” Raven: “I wasn't finished. The next thing you lose will be your left eye, followed by the right . . .” Fitzwilliam: “And, then my ears, I understand. Let's get on with it.” Raven: “Wrong! Your ears you keep, and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish, every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out: "Dear God, what is that thing?" will echo in your perfect ears. That is what "to the pain" means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery, forever.” *Fitzwilliam stares in horror as Raven turns around, waving his behind in the air and backs up pressing back and attack repeatedly…* Fitzwilliam: "NooooOooooo" *Raven drops to console, typing 'bind Z +taunt'* *Raven presses Z... again and again ....* Raven: "PATCH THIS !!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippo Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 you know what? you're ****ing right idle. **** this ****ing bull**** game. good ****ing job raven, you had a ****ing hit on your hands and ****ing blew it for the newbies. i too have been trying to be constructive but **** THAT! i'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 F*** you too!!! Sheesh, that's just...rude. I really hope that that was some kind of mistake... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord Chief Posted May 9, 2002 Share Posted May 9, 2002 I know a lot of people have allready spilled their guts about the new patch but I want to my spilling too Anyway, its true that Jk2 sabermodes needed some tweaking. Heavy was way too powerful because the DFA move was as lethal once you were on the ground as it is when you are in the air. The fact that you cannot turn anymore while on the ground after DFA is a good thing so no complaints there. Light has been improved too. Its way faster now so the difference with medium is far more noticable. Medium has been ruined, simple as that. You cant cirkleswipe anymore by strafing, only by walking diagonally can you carry out something that looks like a turnmove but its very limited in usefulness. They should have made the damage from medium a bit lower but keep the moves the same. Alas, they did not and choose to limit the moves you can do. Like some before me allready mentioned, the deflections just plain stink in mp. You can now walk up an enemy and frantically hit about without too much worry that youll be sliced in half because the other guy is more experienced and times his hits better. Also, and this is a personal thing I guess, I hate the fact that an enemy gets more damaged when he gets hit when you are in the middle of a swing then when he gets hit when youre at the beginning/end of a swing. Ive heard things like, "yes, but its more realistic this way." Realistic? Qui Gon uses his saber to stab through a steel door in Eps1. The thing is made out of pure energy so whether you hit something hard or soft with it doesnt, or shouldnt, make any difference. The patch rewards people who blindly barge into enemies and slice em up whereas the old version truly made you need to play strategically. Because if you didnt a better, more patient player would beat the living daylights out of you. Just needed to get that of my heart, I feel much better again FYI, I merged your newly created thread into this official one in order to cut down on redundancy and so many impressions posts on the first page. Nothing personal, just trying to tidy this place up a bit. -- Canoli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Posted by Messy_Dwarf (in MP Strategy) The new patch has made the saber about as effective as a flashlight. I would argue that the flashlight is more dangerous as you stand a chance of temporarily blinding your opponent (I know this first hand, I have a younger sister). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkSide Posted May 10, 2002 Share Posted May 10, 2002 Where's the link to this other thread that the email came to? It seems rather out of character of him...almost to the point of being a fake. I've sent him quite a few emails, and in the responses, he's never once used an emoticon like a smiley, or anything. What was the question asked of him anyways? Let's see that before we make conclusions. If it was, "Mr. Gummelt, a lot of complainers are on the forum asking for a patch to revert to the old way, are you guys considering it?" Then his response looks a whole lot less inflammatory doesn't it? Crikeys people, everyone is certainly worked up into a frenzy over this. Somebody post the link to that thread... TDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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