The Patch from Hell (Saber Combat is Dead)

[JediGhost[SITH]]

I agree with fitz... Saber combat is completely ruined..

 

I refer to the patch as the "Quakerizer" because that's all it did.. Make JK2 even closer to Quake.

 

The problem, I believe, is the SP saber attacks in MP! Heavy is too slow and the rest are too fast. So now what we have are hardly any heaviers, and a bunch of non-skill rapidly swinging blue/yellow stances! If you join an FFA game with ATLEAST 6 people, just spectate. It's amazing what you'll see.

 

It's like World War III!

 

I believe most of us only asked for a DFA fix. That's all we wanted.... A DFA Fix. I do recall, however, some people saying it would be COOL to merge SP with MP.. But it's a stupid idea!

 

I say we get rid of everything they just changed.. But keep: DFA Fix, the keyboard above head, force/weapon disabling.

 

P.S.

I'm glad I didn't actually BUY this game.. I'd want my money back now... I can't wait for Galaxies, they better not **** it up like this.

[NemoX]

I must say this is a most entertaining Post/Replies i've read in a while.

[Vorax]

Yes, they did mess this up!!! Damn, now all them Skill Whores are owning the Duels!! I want the old patch back and I say it on all the servers, but the 'good players' (Skill Whores!!) all just keep telling me 'to adapt', 'learn to play the game, 'Study the moves', 'learn to anticipate', 'develop timing'...it's all BS!!....Skill Whores!!! All of em ar Skill Whores!!! They think that just because they practice the game and study the moves and try to learn counter strategies, tactics and all that other hockus pokus, that they deserve to win?? Skill Whores!!! I used to use just red and drain, in my day that was all we needed, now I am quitting this game, cuz it seems the only way I will be able to compete is develop skills of my own...and no f'n way am I gonna be a Skilll Whore!! I ain't sinking to that level!!! I have no skill and I don't have time to develop it!! I want the old patch back!

 

- Evil Twin Vorax

[deliboy007]

I think saber blocking has also seen improvement. With the old patch it took some maneuvering to get a strong slash to land right in the middle of the swing on the opponent, and this was usually good for a near lethal kill. In the new patch I have had a full on right in the middle of the swing smack and it just bounces off their saber. It does make medium more fun and it also makes fighting against strong more fun since you don't have to worry about the end of swing right when you think it's safe to attack, but the saber deals you 100 damage anyway.

[eON]

Hi all.

 

I have not installed the 1.03 patch yet so i wont comment specifically on the details, but based on what I have read so far I think it will be a lot harder on players like me.

 

I play in Aus and use a 56k modem connection. My typical ping is 180 to 350. I say this because I think that my connection speed forms a big part of the tactics I use. btw I tend to duel mostly.

 

I am primarily a red stance user. When I'm playing against people with cable or ADSL who have a very low ping then mixing it up, toe to toe, with yellow or blue is suicide fror me. I have to use hit and run tactics, kick-flips, wall kicks, force tricks whatever I can to minimise the the connection penalty.

 

I do, unashamedly, use DFA. I dont spam but I do perform it more than a few times in a bout. I have found that against good players who use other stances and force tricks, they can do quite well against me and are not fazed by my using DFA.

 

The bottome line is, from what I see, this patch will force me into closer combat and that will put me at a severe disadvantage.

 

eON

"thats not a lightsaber, THIS is a lightsaber....."

[JediGhost[SITH]]

Depending on what you play, the battles may be different.

 

Red:

Slower Swings

Slower movement during slower swings

Very Beginning and Very End of swing do not hurt

When using DFA, you can't turn (right,left,up,down) until the DFA is done.

 

Yellow:

A little slower

SP Stance

 

Blue:

Lightspeed

SP Stance

 

And ALL the moves now have the little spin/stab special attack from SP.. If you stand with your back to someone while holding Backstep, when you hit attack you'll do a spin and swipe or a backstab.

 

If you continue to use red (FFA), then you pretty much have a fair advantage on some servers.

 

The big fights usually consist of 4 or 5 people smacking into each other non-stop swinging with blue/yellow.

 

All's you gotta do is DFA the whole group, or run into the group back-first and do the heavy backswing.

 

Or you could be non-trendy and do the DFA.

[fitzwilliamd]

Skill is not the issue.

 

Before this patch, I reveled in the thrill of competiton; if a skilled player crushed me, I adapted and learned to crush him back. Saber combat is now devoid of the elements that made it great. They fixed a few bugs, and then proceeded to bowdlerize the game into an unrecognizable, boring, slashfest.

 

The whole experience has undergone a total conversion. They have gutted it and happily provided us with an impoverished version: the richness and strength of the original saber combat system has been consigned to oblivion. I am not referring to the bugs that needed to be corrected, I am referring to the feel of the game, the action, the feedback: it has been mislaid or worse, abrogated.

[leelink]

Heres how the patch effected me.... I use pull/push/jump/all saber skill maxed/and heal.

 

Now I use pull/push/jump/all saber skill maxed/and Mindtrick

 

Did the patch cripple my gameplay? No not in any way. as you can See I play mostly a Neutral powered Jedi, I can still kill with one hit the same as I use to, I just use med stance backstab now. I see more players are using this but less people still know the counter to it. I have notice that walking rather then running will execute combo hits, so I use that as well when in close to get more hits and better defense. there is still much to learn. I cannot say whether the patch is good or bad, no one could possibly be good enought to execute all the moves in all the stances. Tell me a move or force that can't be countered and I'll find out the counter in 24hrs... you can email me at leelink@padgamer.com

[Demolisher]

I always used medium stance and light stance for the forward lunge attack and was getting fairly good at this game, now the new patch made the game much harder!! I can understand fixing the heavy stance stuff, but why did they fix light and medium!?!?! I mean nobody was complaining about light and medium and we all used it. Now Raven changes it.

[joey_kool]

You can't please everyone, there's always those that say something sucks because they are not used to the changes.

 

People fear change.

 

I'm already starting to adjust, I think it's added something to the game.

 

And if you really really hate the changes, all you have to do is stop playing, no-ones forcing you to continue, and im sure it would relieve the endless topics on 'how it sucks'.

[fitzwilliamd]

all you have to do is stop playing

 

I never posted a rant, complaint, or whine before the patch; and I never will. Despite much abuse, I will state my grievances and my opinion about a once great piece of software.

 

Those that are happy with this new conversion, I rejoice with you. I bought JK2, enjoyed it, started to get involved in the community and clans; I even began to upgrade my computer to augment my enjoyment of the game. Then Raven changes the entire Matrix sucking the marrow out of the code.

 

Do not tell me that to 'just stop playing' is justice. Raven altered my software once I got it home, months later. I would never have purchased this game in this form. It would have stayed on the shelf at the computer store with the other sloppy combat systems.

[fitzwilliamd]

This was published in another forum, so I have answered it in an open letter:

 

Originally posted by JRA_Wolf in another thread--

 

Quoting DIRECTLY from my email inbox:

 

"We're not reverting to anything, complainers are just going to have to get used to it all over again, I guess... :/ "

 

Michael Chang Gummelt

 

Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II

 

Raven Software

 

http://www.ravensoft.com"

 

Put up or shut up, thanks bye.

 

Mr. Gummelt:

 

The term is not complainer; it is customer.

 

It is surprising to me that a company with the reputation of Raven would pigeonhole some of its customer base in such a fashion. I for one do not wish to be relegated to the complainer pile due to my opinion of your recent renovation and utter alteration of the code and combat system.

 

When my coworkers and I purchased this software, there was no need for us to ‘get used to it.’ It was on the shelf in the format that originally interested us. We were not enrolled in a free beta testing project. The product won awards in the production version. Notwithstanding a few bugs, the combat system was fabulous and engaging. Following your mandatory patch, it is neither. It is hardly a patch, it is a new game: a game that I would never have invested time into.

 

In the future, please show consideration and decency to your customers by avoiding disrespectful labels.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Fitzwilliam

[Flash25]

Fitzwilliam,

 

What do you think accounts for the lack of skill needed and randomness in saber combat? I'd like to uderstand your point of view better.

[fitzwilliamd]

(In case you missed this quote and my agreement)

 

Posted by Idlemind

 

Raven has basically turned around, given everyone the finger, then walked away laughing as we all stand in stupified horror.

 

Posted by Fitzwilliam:

 

Since I am getting a bit loopy; please excuse my 'Princess Bride meets Raven Software' scene

 

*Cue Music*

 

Fitzwilliam: “Why did you make drastic changes to a wonderful game?”

 

Raven: “Die COMPLAINER!” Muhahahahahah …

 

Fitzwilliam: “I … Uh … ‘Mommy….’”

 

*Raven steps forward and a 1.03 lightsaber flashes into life*

 

Raven: "To the pain," means the first thing you lose will be your feet below the ankles, then your hands at the wrists, next your nose.”

 

Fitzwilliam: “And, then my tongue I suppose.”

 

Raven: “I wasn't finished. The next thing you lose will be your left eye, followed by the right . . .”

 

Fitzwilliam: “And, then my ears, I understand. Let's get on with it.”

 

Raven: “Wrong! Your ears you keep, and I'll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish, every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out: "Dear God, what is that thing?" will echo in your perfect ears. That is what "to the pain" means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery, forever.”

 

*Fitzwilliam stares in horror as Raven turns around, waving his behind in the air and backs up pressing back and attack repeatedly…*

 

Fitzwilliam: "NooooOooooo"

 

*Raven drops to console, typing 'bind Z +taunt'*

 

*Raven presses Z... again and again ....*

 

Raven: "PATCH THIS !!!"

[Flash25]

Great! I like The Princess Bride too. So, what do you think accounts for the lack of skill needed and randomness in saber combat?

[[Ars]Vampyre]

I'd have to say that the original complaint is pretty much right.

 

The saber, in general, is too weak. Perhaps this is because of the nerfed incidental damage(tip damage?), but either way it makes the saber completely unviable against even rather unskilled gun users.

 

In duels, battles that once lasted a few seconds now last 15 or 20 minutes. The difference isn't that I can't spam DFA(I am a majority Yellow Stance fighter, and always have been), its that my blows rarely do any damage, when they do connect.

 

I had an interesting set of duels with a 'gentlemen' who simply sat around in red stance blocking the entire time, waiting until I got bored to throw his saber at me. Eventually, I was forced to walk away, simply because there was no way to penetrate his defenses, which were to simply STAND STILL AND LOOK AT ME, and occasionally sidestep something like the DFA.

 

Saber blocking is far too effective. The result is that most must now resort to using blue-stance and spaming the target, hoping that the target will get annoyed and take a swing, and they can penetrate before the target hits.

 

I have been running a dedicated server, doing some experiments. It would seem that it takes far more than the '3 yellow hits' claimed to kill someone. It can take upwards of 12, even if it appears they connect. This is with a ping of 4, not 400.

 

I played obviously with the original Box version, and I never had a problem with spammers. Simply stay out of their way and throw your saber, you can do it in duels, and they were highly vulnerable to it. Only when someone used the DFA effectively did it ever do any damage to me, so I fail to see the large problem, other than the logical objection to what is overpowering, if not avoidable many times.

 

Now, it would seem that someone can simply stand around and do nothing and win a battle out of sheer boredom. The unblockable moves are completely ineffective, and worse, the blockable moves will leave you vulnerable to a quick throw that you wouldn't have been vulnerable to before... in essence, Duels are now defensive battles of patience rather than offencive battles of skill, and FFA is who can pick up the rocket launcher, repeater, or Fragmentation cannon first and secondary fire the other to death.

 

Jumpkicking doesn't seem to be that much of ap roblem.. I can doubletap the jump key as easily as singletap it, and I never used pull to get someone into my jumpkick. However, it would be nice if I could use it to knock someone down in a duel when they're stationary and only blocking, and it would be nicer if it also did damage like it does outside the duel.

 

Also, is not the weapon of a jedi a feared and awesome thing, which should command respect and CARE? If you can't avoid accidentally getting hit with the tip, you deserve to get fried. Its not a butterknife, its a lightsaber. It should do alot of damage regardless of how it hits you. If anything, it should do as much damage at the beginning and end of the swing as it does in the middle.. the majority of a lightsaber's damage wouldn't be from the kenetic energy placed in it, but the searing heat that can melt doors on say, a starship. It doesn't lop off limbs because I swing it hard, it does it because it can melt through almost anything. Are we all covered in Shadowtrooper suits now?

 

I'm severely disappointed in some of the changes, and greatly appreciative of others. Heal and drain spamming were annoying, and its only logical that the Overhead smash of death move wouldn't allow you to spin quickly and kill someone with your saber buried. On the other hand, someone standing stationary and blocking should not be able to deflect all blows. Give me a kick to knock them down and hit them with their defenses if they refuse to fight, at least. I'm tired of having to try and negotiate the blade to slip just past their defenses and knick them, only to have them plow their blade into me while I'm retrieving mine, simply because they chose to wait me out until I got bored.

 

Saber Duels should only take minutes if the two opponents are skilled, move alot, and are probing eachother for weaknesses and holes in the defenses. They shoudln't last half an hour because one guy decides to back into a corner and block with his saber, becoming invulnerable.

 

As such, my dedicated server is either reverting or going down. This patch makes saber dueling unfeasible, and makes using it in FFA with guns available pointlessly frustrating. I should be able to beat someone simply with my saber skill, not because I caught them off guard, pushed them down, sabered them, then ran 20 times in a row, and ahd the luck not to get gunned down in the back.

 

Also, is it me, or does the force regenerate slower now? Maybe I missed that in the list of changes made.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for Raven's developer response, I can't say I'm surprised though I am disappointed. So long as companies continue to treat dissatisfied customers as 'complainers', they'll lose business. One can only hope that in a year, Raven's employees are sitting in the unemployment line thinking about why their latest game didn't sell, and why everyone says they treat their customers like crap. In my mind, the least he could have done was be a bit more diplomatic about his refusal to accept criticism, something more along the lines of 'We're attempting to strike a balance that suits the vast majority of our customers, and we regret that we have some disatisfied fans. However, you can't please everyone, but we hope that perhaps our disatisfied fans will come to appreciate these new changes." Instead, he's more or less said "if you don't like it, stick it where the sun don't shine. We really could care less about your opinion, and when the guys that like us now suddenly don't like some other change we've made, we'll tell them the same, becuase Hey, Raven is about what we want to do, not pleasing the people who paid us money."

 

Mr. Gummelt, one can only hope that you either learn to hold your tongue, or become more soothing with it. Else, when your customers do realize what a prick you are, you might have no way to feed your family or the horrible crack addiction which makes you think that treating your customers like 'complainers' is going to score you more sales. Personally, your response will likely cause you to lose my recommendation, which means losing a few sales. Not much to you I suppose, but if there's 1 who's willing to say it, there's 100 who aren't, but will still do it.

 

Besides, we all know 'The Sims', is a better game in every respect, right?

[JediGhost[SITH]]

*gazes in awe at the magnitude of that paragraph (or short story?)*

[tempest8008]

Originally posted by fitzwilliamd

 

The greatness of JK2 stemmed from the skill required to gain prowess with the lightsaber. Saber proficiency was the reward of time invested in the game. The gap between a true proficient and the average player was high, as it should be.

 

Now the learning curve is flattened out to where my 5-year-old son ran around a few 1.03 servers swinging and placed 3rd out of 20 and 4th out of 10. Is he a JO genius? I think not.

 

Gotta disagree with you, Fitzy....

 

Learning the combos and "new" moves does take some skill and timing. The problem is that the patch has made so many changes to saber combat that people have yet to build that new skillset.

 

I GUARANTEE you that in a couple of weeks your son won't be able to leap into a fight spamming his guts out and live more than 3 or 4 seconds. Right now people are spamming because they are TRYING to do what they did before, it isn't working, and they're just ending up swinging their guts out.

 

This WILL get you some kills, especially if you're in the middle of a big melee, it always has, but a smart saberist will back off in that case and whip out a gun (if available) or stay back and saber throw in...

 

In this case, the only ones dying are the stupid...and I'm all for that!

 

But I suppose after all that my point is that using the saber PROPERLY under the new patch does take some skill, and there is a learning curve...and as more people mount that curve, the unskilled will be weaned out, and saber combat will become a skill again.

 

I'm not saying it is now....ye Gods, I'm not saying that. I've watched and played on 1.03 servers and a lot of the time it is a gory mess. BUT, I've also seen isolated groups of 2 or 3 fighting at least somewhat thoughtfully, and it is a sight to behold...

 

Watching someone do a light lunge, a heavy backsweep, flip in the air doing a downward slash, turn and parry a medium sweep coming in from behind, then duck rolling past someone and doing the light backstab for the kill....not only was it damned nice to look at, but it was a lot of fun to DO...I think I broke my middle mouse button (bound to change stance), but it was a LOT of fun, and took a lot of skill, IMNSHO.

 

And Fitz?

 

I LOVE YOU TOO, MAN!

[Darth Jar Jar]

very well put [Ars]Vampyre. I agree with you 110%

[fitzwilliamd]

But I suppose after all that my point is that using the saber PROPERLY under the new patch does take some skill, and there is a learning curve...and as more people mount that curve, the unskilled will be weaned out, and saber combat will become a skill again.

 

Tempest8008,

 

This sounds nice. I hope you are right, I truly do!

 

With that said, however, prima facie, the changes are drastic, unnecessary, and add nothing to game play. It seems as though someone at Raven decided to eviscerate the multiplayer aspect of the game by making it like single player. It is their new ‘vision.’

 

I have tried to enjoy it, but it is soft, with little feel and no feedback during combat. Proficient aiming and well-timed swings do little damage, spam is rewarded. Combinations yield dubious results.

 

The game was highly addictive and fun, why make it like single player? I bought it for multiplayer and personally found the single player aspects unrewarding.

 

Now it is an exercise in frustration and boredom. This patch has changed the game far too much. Many who enjoyed it are now disillusioned and disappointed.

 

The best game play melee combat ever made has just been patched away from me, after I paid to buy the game.

[tempest8008]

Originally posted by fitzwilliamd

 

With that said, however, prima facie, the changes are drastic, unnecessary, and add nothing to game play. It seems as though someone at Raven decided to eviscerate the multiplayer aspect of the game by making it like single player. It is their new ‘vision.’

 

I think the changes have enhanced the gameplay, mostly by removing bugs and changing certain aspects of the heavy stance, especially the DFA.

 

When I first moved from SP to MP, I had to learn a whole new set of skills. Did you enjoy the SP game? I know I did, and I'd love to have been able to just move smoothly from SP to MP. I think that that is what they were aiming for, you can now take all the time and effort you used learning the SP game saber combat and shift ever-so-slightly into MP, with no new batch of skills to learn.

 

Personally, I think that that is for the better, I never understood why they would make the saber act different ways in MP than it did in SP, saber combat is saber combat.

 

I think, in the end, what the patch is going to do is to force players to be more thoughtful and take their time. It's no longer going to be a fragfest, and spammers will suffer the inevitable fate that all spammers do....their constant attacks will be defended against with ranged attacks and judicious use of the Force, and well timed close combat.

 

As to your comment about the "feel" of combat...I may not be as aware of the nuances that you are, but from my experience engaging in duels and other one on one combat, I find the changes in the patch make the fighting more exciting, and has forced me to watch more closely what my opponent is doing. Unless there is an obvious opening, your swing will be blocked, and it seems more like real sword combat now. Your MOVEMENT determines if you're going to penetrate defenses, not just your swing. You attack the rear or the flanks, head on attacks won't work unless your opponent is otherwise engaged (recovering from an attack or starting one of his/her own).

 

One thing that does bug me...

 

Yesterday I skewered someone with a light lunge as they walked towards me doing a heavy, overhead swing. I saw my 'saber come out their BACK. They killed me when their swing connected, because my 'light' attack didn't do them in. Light attack or not, when a lightsaber goes THROUGH you, you should be toast.

[fitzwilliamd]

Very good point!

 

However, installing this patch is quite similar to being forced to reenroll in Kindergarten. Though, quite frankly, finger painting is somewhat more entertaining than the spam, back attack nonsense that is the bulk of the new 'saber artistry.'

 

Skill is out, spam is in. After having perfectly timed, well-executed attacks pass through your assailant without doing any damage, you become somewhat disheartened. Aim, timing, artistry are useless if your strikes are autoblocked and incapable of doing reasonable damage.

[tempest8008]

In that case it's going to become a case of attack - counter-attack. With two light stancers, this means a duel 10's of minutes long. With two heavies, less time, but still longer.

 

Is it just that it takes too long for you to get a kill, 'cause it doesn't seem like you're saying you CAN'T get kills, just that it takes longer to get 'em.

[Ono-Sendai]

I'm not saying that my opinion is more correct or superior to others. However, I have a great deal of experience in games that involve melee combat such as JK, JK2, and various Street Fighters and Tekkens. The general overall trend for these games (and for videogames in general) is a reduction in the skill necessary to be a decent player.

 

In this new patch they've made blocking way too easy, to the point that your saber passes through people several times without a hit. This is just plain wrong. If I see my saber pass through someone, I expect to be rewarded with a hit. In the previous version, if a block was sucessfully excecuted, the attacker's saber would rebound violently and the defender would be able to time a quick counter. Now, a saber block simply happens without consequence.

 

This one change effects saber combat immensely.

 

Saber tossing is a more valuable tactic because of the uncertain nature of the swing.

 

The strategy of sabers swings has shifted from movement and timing to probablities. With this new patch I find myself thinking that if I swing my saber in a certain way I have a greater probablitity of landing a blow instead of thinking if I excecute a certain action I will land a hit. This, of course, leads to spamming. The more you swing, the more likely you are to hit.

 

I'm not sure if I'm hallucinating, but I could swear I've been blocked by people on their back and with their back facing me. This is also very wrong.

 

Another idiotic change is the double-tap flip-kick. It is a pointless change. Did they do this because some people were annoyed at the fact you couldn't be pressed against the wall, running forward, and jump over a small platform? This, to me, is mind boggleing.

 

Drain and grip are toned down, which is good, but they forgot to do the same to lightning. Why? It's free, quick damage. Anything that is free, quick damage should be marginalized in gameplay.

 

This reminds me of the evolution of Street Fighter 2. The game started out as a fun, challenging, strategic fighting game and, with the addition of supermoves, easier combos, and strange fighting systems, eventually morphed into Marvel vs. Capcom. Those who have been with Street Fighter since the beginning know of what I speak.

 

So, in FFA and, to a lesser extent, in duels, I see people running around swinging sabers wildly, flashes of brilliant light leaping from constantly interconnecting sabers, while John Williams' music mixes with the electrical hisses and snaps of a physics experiment gone horribly wrong. It seems that Raven is going to the lowest common denominator, replacing sound combat with the destruction of the critical senses.

 

I hope that with continued play, I will prove myself wrong. At the moment, however, this shift in gameplay has me shaking my head with disbelief. Things aren't looking good for JK2.

 

Ono-Sendai

[Ono-Sendai]

Anyone else find it ironic that the developer who e-mailed fitzwilliam is telling complainers to shut up?

 

This patch is, after all, a very obvious response to people who were complaining about v 1.02.

 

Funny stuff...

 

Ono-Sendai