Augmental Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 yes heal needing a tiny bit tweaking but does it have to be totaly useless? it's only good for desperation now and good luck if youre dark side like me....the public cried out against lighting and grip well now it's all we have! dark rage kinda sucks when youe saber only hits with 6 moves and there all finishers drain hahahahhaha i don't know maybe i'm just as many have said a whiner... but my question is this ...do any of us still feel like a jedi? the utimate warrior able to combat forces and unskilled with ease? or do we now feel like Xmen who got born with crappy powers and raver glow sticks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorus_C'both Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 I've spent about six hour now in multiplay using the new patch. I just finished a 1 vs 1 duel sabers only that would have lasted about 1-2 minutes ina pre-patch environment. That duel not takes about 10-15 minutes---for one person to get one kill. I have yet to decide if this is detrimental or beneficial to the game as a whole, but I am not pleased that saber damage has been reduced exponentially yet gun damage remains the same. Why did raven not modify the damage caused by the infernal Flachette weapon? Right now I am in limbo, trying to decide which version to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l-lan_solo Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 1. well put Augmental, about the "do any of us still feel like a jedi? the utimate warrior able to combat forces and unskilled with ease? or do we now feel like Xmen who got born with crappy powers and raver glow sticks?" thing. but i think heres the prob, for what i see i think what raven was trying to do is make us feel like that with the blocking thing, like blocking behind you(like in SW EP 1) and i have to say the frist time i saw that happen i thought it was really cool and i still say it is. 2. all i see is everyone saying "it's all raven falt" "raven did this to us" raven made a sweet ass game and thay tryed to chang things in it becouse people didn't like it. you all say it's raven but i say it's other people who didn't like what thay had and thay yelled at raven for it. you have to remember all raven is hearing is things that people don't like and not what people like. all they hear is "we don't like DFA" so thay tryed to fix that and thay did and thay hear " saber hits take to much HP" and "the light stance is to slow" and "the yollow is to fast" and thing like that. everyone wasn't e-mailing them going "the light stance is just right" and "the yollow stance is just the right speed" all they are doing is trying to fix what people don't like, but not every one like the same thing so they try there best to make all of you happy and you all spit in there face. if you want to pick a fight go pick a fight with all the people who told them to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 14, 2002 Author Share Posted May 14, 2002 the collision map seems screwed as well Collision mapping does need work. Collision detection is SO important for realistic play dynamics. They have gone backwards in 1.03. A perfectly executed strike that is not blocked (rare ) can pass right through the model without a point of shield or health damage. Tweak this please, Raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 14, 2002 Author Share Posted May 14, 2002 we now feel like Xmen who got born with crappy powers and raver glow sticks? Lol! all i see is everyone saying "it's all raven falt" "raven did this to us" True. And this is a silly approach. I would prefer to dialogue with them as a community. raven made a sweet ass game Quite so! In fact, I would not be so broken up about the changes if I did not absolutely love the game. My hope is that we can get the bugs worked out and make the game better than it was before. But I must reiterate, this patch represents a step backwards; most of their choices in coding this patch are creating this impassioned backlash in the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShogunBlade Posted May 14, 2002 Share Posted May 14, 2002 im not dogging raven at all in fact i commend them for this game hell i am still playing if i thought raven did a shoddy job id be back to mw4.. however.. this patch was released wayyy to early.. it should have had more testing time.. that is all im saying.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 raven next patch open beta? please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twins of Doom Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 i believe they did a fair job on the patch, sure it needs some tweaking, but can anything ever be perfect? saber combat is definately not dead, and i feel the light stance is finally how it should be, it does next to nothing for damage and is almost always blockable, the point of light stance is to sneak through their defenses and hit them while they are open and get away quickly, not do a lot of damage or knock down their defences, DFA is fixed now, and the backstab is NOT cheap, you have to turn your back to the person, which could get you killed very easily! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 15, 2002 Author Share Posted May 15, 2002 Originally posted by Hado Thanks for your comments but we, for the most part, obviously disagree. There will not be another official patch. Michael Chang Gummelt Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II Raven Software http://www.ravensoft.com No further official patching. This is an odd move for a company that wishes to continue selling software in the future. This is a singular approach to product support. We feel sorry for people who got used to 1.02 and it's exploits and cannot adapt Michael Chang Gummelt Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II Raven Software http://www.ravensoft.com Those in the community that are offering data and facts to back up their position should take great exception to such a generalization (not to mention the logical fallacies involved: ad Misericordiam, Converse Accident, etc.). I for one did not like the exploits mentioned; however, version 1.03 is fraught with bugs and poor coding choices. Perhaps Raven feels that its programmers are infallible and the bugs and gameplay problems we have identified are fantasy. It seems that wanting to see positive changes made to the problems with the patch makes you an exploiter, incapable of adaptation, that needs to be pitied. What wonderful hubris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jorus_C'both Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 It seems that Raven has a real piss-poor attitude when it comes to addressing concerns of its customers. Perhaps the problem is with the individual from raven who has been writing the corospondonce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShogunBlade Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 hmmm ok.. so thats solved.. this game will move forward no longer i deem.. i paid 50 bucks hmm ok im going back to 1.02.. if they make no attempt to fix thier game i say to hell with them.. however not everything you read is true.. you never know.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 15, 2002 Author Share Posted May 15, 2002 I don't consider Raven to be the kind of company interested in building a solid community around they're game. Or at least whatever formula they extracted from the success of Q3 they are failing miserably at. Its just not in they're interests like it was ID software to build such a community. With ID software they also wanted to license the engine and as such make money by patching and upgrading that engine. But companies like raven care about no such thing. To them they want to put as little money out and get as much back in return, and if fixing some bugs we all hate doesn't accomplish that to they're liking then yes we as players are up a creek. But it's all quite simple, don't buy they're games, boycott them, talk bad about them. But the last thing you should do is buy they're game then complain. Cuz hey, after you bought it, they could care less what you say, they've got they're money. Sadly, your statements seem accurate. Building a solid community is not a priority for them. Each time I hear Mr. Gummelt's responses, I am forced to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morte_man Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 I like the new speed of the swings, but the damage should of been left, and if anything, medium should of gone up a little (since its speed went down) and fast should of gone down (cause speed went up). Lightsaber battles seem so bland and boring now, I liked the fast saber battles, they had you on the edge of your seat guessing what was going to happen next. Now its like "oh another backstab, oh i'm dead again. Oh i hit him yay..." Old version new version Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 i'm between the extremes here i think blocking should happen alot but maybe that kinda of blocking should cost serious points or have a button asociate with it sabers should do more damage,dismember or have more special moves dfa should not be spamable but now it's blockable? i think one mroe patch fixing the two extremes would shut everyone up but unless there is a new patch.....i feel that this game will always be divided.........and yes raven i know why your putting jk 2 on the backburner...someone say sof2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l-lan_solo Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 i think what we really need is for jucas him self to make jedi knight 3. have him get in there with all the people he's got working for him and make a really good game. if he backed up a game like he is his movies i think we'd have the best game money could buy. i mean if you ever watch him talk about SW he'll tell you he make it for him and he makes it the best way he can. he'll do what ever need be to make it like he's wants and make it right, to make it star wars. if he'd stop selling the good name of star wars to stupid companys who don't know what there doing we'd all be better off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 watch episode one and episode 2...do you really think lucas knows what he is doing anymore? i imagine raven offices :yay whoo sof2 comming out soon gotta gold disc! whooooooo! mailboy:uhh guys what about jedi knight 2? raven:we should really nerf his cart so it runs slower but has cool sparks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 15, 2002 Author Share Posted May 15, 2002 More literary legerdemain from Ravensoft: In general, some work was put into making sabers more likely to hit - both the other players and their lightsaber. This was not so much a problem with strong attacks because they are so long and slow, but often medium and fast attacks would miss or pass through. --Michael Chang Gummelt, Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II The work put into this problem was counterproductive. It takes only a cursory read of the forums to see that individuals are frustrated by the new propensity for the saber to pass through models without shield or health damage. Medium was not meant to be the whirling dervish style, so it was made so that, if you do the same exact move over and over again, you cannot chain as many attacks as if you mix it up a little. "Spinning top" fighters should use fast style. This is the *only* change to medium style. --Michael Chang Gummelt, Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II Even a casual examination of 1.02 Medium in comparison to 1.03 Medium will reveal enormous changes in the style. Mr. Gummelt claims that there has been a single change to medium: reduction of chain attacks. If there was *only* one single alteration to the style, then why is medium radically changed? The answer is simple and undeniable. The core gameplay adjustments made were not made in a vacuum, as it were; each time the code is altered it influences other variables causing enormous change to the whole. The medium style is almost unrecognizable due to the impact of the new saber mechanics. This single change to Medium appears small, but not when examined in the context of enormous alterations to the whole. After delineating the changes Mr. Gummelt says: Regardless of what you feel is different or other posters say, these are really the *only* changes to saber combat... Since a large portion of the JK community see this patch as a dramatic conversion: why patronize us by saying that what we feel or read is wrong; to contend that the changes are minor is astounding. Whether you enjoy the patch or not, it is obvious that saber dynamics are tremendously different. The realization becomes more acute relative to your knowledge of the intricacies of gameplay. Idle saber damage tuning, parries, deflections, knockaways, hit probabilities, etc. This sounds revolutionary to me. Raven wants Multiplayer to be like Single Player. But we are Ravensoft! Our official view is that despite what you clearly see ‘these are really the *only* changes to saber combat...’ Incredible. Complex systems created by simple deterministic programming rule sets must be thoroughly understood in order to make predictions and effectuate control of the final product. Perhaps, since the Raven programmers are using a canned engine (Quake 3) their excellent alterations have gotten unmanageable for them. They are not the creative genius behind this remarkable engine; Raven has modified the Quake III Team Arena software. Perhaps the complexity inherent in the system has gotten out of their control. At first, they modified the tune to make a pleasant melody. Then they began tinkering with it and some of the notes have soured. If you have a good ear for music, you are going to want them to clean up the score. As Byron has it, "a change came o'er the spirit of my dream." And you are quite wrong, Mr. Gummelt, what we feel and discuss and can clearly see is not invalidated because you say so. Your Jedi Mind Trick is useless against us. These ARE the droids we are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 1:on the down side jk series is always this same as the new movies better like it cause you won't see the next one for over 3 years 2:sof2 is comming out as one of raven main products this will naturaly get more support 3:on the plus side in chang post about the changes he made several references to things not yet implemented and vague references that he didn't exactly know what wheather there was gonna be a new patch or not he may say there won't now but with the mercs vs jedi code not fully implemented but in the core coding it makes you wonder if they will complete what they started...maybe like what they did with sof gold 4:1.02 had issues 10.3 had issues if we combine both we might reach a happy medium 5:if not new names for jedi knight 2 could be Dance dance revolution Blue light megamix! or Xmen:mutant rejects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitzwilliamd Posted May 15, 2002 Author Share Posted May 15, 2002 1.03 Propaganda: In general, some work was put into making sabers more likely to hit - both the other players and their lightsaber. This was not so much a problem with strong attacks because they are so long and slow, but often medium and fast attacks would miss or pass through. --Michael Chang Gummelt, Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II Now a demo showing this to be false and utter nonsense. Keep in mind that Mr. Gummelt claims sabers are now more likely to hit as you watch the demo. 1.03 Facts: Originally posted by Hado http://www.iceplosive.com/saberbugs103.zip This is the first version. There's a lot more clipping issues where sabers go right through people without damaging, especially after a victim is knocked over. I'll come up with more demos soon. Let me be clear. We post so that fixes will be applied to the current patch. Raven released an eminently buggy patch, now hopefully they will tidy up the mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 15, 2002 Share Posted May 15, 2002 record a demo of the worst aspects of the new patch save it to wav format add music like "the end" by linkin park send that to raven or show it to us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l-lan_solo Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 i have to ask you Augmental, what is it you don't like about the last 2 SW movies? and don't even tell me it's that the story doesn't fit or i well shoot down anything you have to say about it, i've done it many times before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 episode one the pod race... darth maul dies do we learn anything about darth maul? no all the darth maulist learning time was spent on pod race and jar jar quotes this also sucked up anytime we could of learned about qui gon the most common problem the age test ok the queen is older then anakin ok then how come in episode 2 he seems older then her? i can't judge episode two yet but so far this is what i've heard.the same complaint as in episode 1...too many characters fit in to too little time...you forget who characters are why they are...or there point...in the original star wars you knew who everyone was why they were and what they did....the stories match because it's not hard to match a prequel to a sequal so that rules out your auguement right there but characters wise it seems shot to hell...oh well the fetts got a movie that's a good thing..serious family values there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShogunBlade Posted May 16, 2002 Share Posted May 16, 2002 the pod race: familiarize yourself with anakin's piloting skills as im sure by ep 3 he is going to be a flying fool... darth maul.. well lets go into the sith and what lucas himself discribes them... secretive, hidden, and stealthy.. darth maul was never supposed to be darth vader in any sense.. his character added flavor to the movie.. sure jar jar was annoying and the movie seemed a bit kiddie.. but it was just a back drop of anakins origins.. people that pay attention to these things get them... others that do not wont.. the star wars universe is so huge.. that they only get a few scenes.. although any standing actor that plays a major role always is felt out.. boba fett: we now learn about his origins obiwan kenobi: we now learn about his darth maul: a sith acolyte that was over confident and got shredded all these characters fit somewhere.. just take your time take a deep breath and watch the movie again.. thats right.. relax... wipe the drool from your chin... ahhh much better... remember a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmental Posted May 17, 2002 Share Posted May 17, 2002 darth maul at best was a filler no he was not suppose to be vader but he didn't need to be a filler lucas orinaly wanted to make the pod race longer age issue still not adressed we know were gonna learn about obi won maybe some where along the line they'll explain who or where qui gon came from you say some miss thease things no i think we assume thease things it's easy to make up darth maul orgin easy to make up where qui gon came from but that's your image of the movie not exactly what it was and if lucas has to explain his movies then why are we watching them? explaing a bad joke doesn't make it more funny the fact is if this was a sequal they would have to abine by certain facts but because it's a prequel it's up in the air darth vader could have originaly been a clown who has force powers like...keflka.......you can also explain some of thease by the books but as lucasarts says...if you want the true canon look to the movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l-lan_solo Posted May 17, 2002 Share Posted May 17, 2002 sorry i didn't say anything last night about the starwars thing(i was watching EP 1 and then i had to go to bed so i could get up and go see EP 2 today) but i thank you very much for helping me out ShogunBlade, i think you got alot of it but theres still some things you didn't really say and that is that SW EP 1, 2 and 3 are really about one thing, and if you have to ask it's about, anakin! just like ANH ESB and ROTJ were about luke and not about to much else. i mean really, how much did you hear about anyone else in the old movies? it was for the most part about luke and the new SW's are about anakin, and some other people, but for the most part it's about anakin. as far as darth maul, all he was really meant to be was "filler" he was a sith that no one really new anything about and he died that way. i mean think about the old SW, the big bad guy was really the emperor, but did you know anything about him? no, you didn't really know anything about him, and for that matter you didn't know anything about vader. and thats where the new movies come in, to tell you about two of the biggest bad est bad guys ever. and for what you said befor Augmental about "in the original star wars you knew who everyone was why they were and what they did" no you didn't, in a new hope you didn't really know anything about anyone, you had to see every movie to know the hole thing, and if you don't belive me go back and just watch a new hope if you have it and tell me it tells you all about every one and you know everything about them just from that movie, trust me, you'll fined out real fast it doesn't tell you all that much. all i can tell you is you can't tell a story as big as star wars in 2 hours, heck you can't tell a story as big as star wars in 6 movies, thay can't even really tell you the story of star wars in all the books and comics of star wars. i mean don't git me wrong, i'd love to know every thing about every one, like plo koon, if any of you even knows who that is(he's a jedi and he's in EP 1 and 2), but the movies not about him, he's not a big roll and i can live with that cause i know you can only put so much info in 2 hours and you can tell every ones story, thats why you get one of the many books about these people. like lord of the rings, for anyone who has read the book and seen the movie you know that so much stuff was left out and every thing was not right, but they did a really really good job with the time they had. and just to tell every one, if you haven't seen EP 2 you really really really need to, even if you didn't like EP 1 i bet you like this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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