Details About Some Patch Changes

[Nill the Mean]

Sorry, I still think my ideas are about a million times better.

Just read the simple ideas I put down there and try to imagine it a bit in practice. Solves most of the "problems" now doesn't it? We need to opt for these to be changed in the next patch.

 

And we need fists! ARG!

[WD Gambit]

iIagree with just about everything rage has said, this patch in a nut shell hurts high skill lvl gaming lets see the two best guns nerfed down to 1 shot for 25 ammo i mean i ran out of ammo playing vs another player at my skill lvl quite quickly at 25 per shot its going to make this game all about camping on ammo. Of course all the newbies praise this patch because saber battles are more "jedi like" or because it got rid of the dreaded DFA move that was never a problem bc/ it was so easy to avoid. raven if you want to anger all the people that actully are competitive gamers just do nothing because your going get from us what your giving us now Nothing.

[NewBJedi]

I erased my other suggestion - Jellybelly is 100% correct:

 

The ultimate solution is to simply make it all server side.

 

If the in-game browser fits itself to allow filtering of all the admin-options that change game play - doesn't have to specific numbers, could be greater or less than, than it would easy to give admin options.

 

People can also use rulesets in ASE and Gamespy to filter for exact servers they want.

 

Even the force nerfing/beefing-up doesn't have to be necessarily a complicated and specific matter - if that's too much of a problem.

 

There could be a g_specificforcerank type rule.

 

That would mean specific forces for light and dark could be adjusted.

 

Actually that would solve the problem - add more forcerank rulesets that adjust the different kinds of forces - probably combine them into light and dark and neutral.

 

g_lightforce 0-5 - Absorb, heal, mindtrick, etc

g_darkforce 0-5 Dark rage, grip, drain, etc.

g_neutralforce 0-5 - all other forces.

 

Also, say they wanted kick to be a part of the force:

 

g_forcekick 1 or 0

 

1 = it uses up and requires force.

0 = like it is now.

 

For weapon guys - for example:

 

g_ammorespawn 0-5

g_weaponsrespawn 0-5

 

Saberists:

 

g_newsaber 1 0

 

1 = New SP style in MP saber.

0 = Old MP style saber.

 

g_saberblock 0-5 (controls the amount of saber auto-blocking.)

 

This would alleviate the dev team from being responsible for constantly tweaking the game - and allow admins and the community (by popularity of the servers) to decide what options are best.

 

If a handful of people enjoy certain settings, so be it and let them run their server and enjoy the game. Make the defaults in the middle, and the admins change the rules, from that point on.

 

Sure dev can work on performance issues, cheats, bugs, etc, but I suggest simply replacing all future 'gameplay tweaks' with server-side (client filterable) options.

 

The most simple and easy solution.

[Kiell_Randor]

First of all Raven, thank you for the effort obviously put into this patch. It offers some improvements over the original version of the game.

 

That said however, there are some major problems that I feel need to be addressed. I can make NO comment regarding any changes made to the guns side of thing, as I am leader of a sabers only 'clan'.

 

Heavy Stance: First of all, you got heavy stance right! It is finally well balanced. The special is harder to do, and the attacks themselves do a more reasonable amount of damage.

 

Medium Stance: Removing the continous spin capabilities was a very good move. The stance plays more like it should be now. The BIG problem: the 'backstab' move in medium is a guaranteed one-hit kill. We tested it this afternoon, and someone with 100 health and 150 shields died in one shot every time.

 

Light: Too fast. It is unbalanced now. The original speed of the style was about right, but now the player moves around like a ferret on crack. Slow it down to something akin to its original speed please!!

 

Blocking: The increase in blocking was a very nice move. However, simultaneously decreasing damage was a very bad move. What you effectively did was, make any fight take forever. Two people who are at completely different skill levels can still take literally minutes to finish a duel. And then when fighting multiple opponents, all hope is lost.

 

It used to be that if you were _good_ you could take on 2, 3, 4 people at once with a hope of winning. A few very well executed moves could even the score up quickly. Now no matter how many well executed moves you do, they will eventually wear you down.

 

If you kept the increased blocking, but upped the damage a LOT, you could make it so that if one person is far more skilled, they can win quickly. If the two opponents are even, it will make for a much longer battle than pre-patch. This is how it should be.

 

Here's crossing our fingers for some life back into the game for saber fighting!

[Nill the Mean]

That with so many variables it would be impossible to find the type of game you want. There aren't enough servers to be able to have that much choice yet.

 

*in response to JellyBelly & NewBJedi*

[WD_Rage]

Originally posted by TheDarkSide

I see your points, and respect your opinion, but by reading through several of your posts here, it would seem to me that you play on No Force CTF servers. While ammo is a key component of defense, offense and interdiction/midfielders, you make it seem like it is the ONLY component.

 

No, I play FF CTF. You're right, though, there are more components to CTF, however, I use defense as an example. I'm lazy by nature, and including all positions (which I have in other posts and in this one) is just more for me to type. Does my laziness effect my playing? No.

 

You've mentioned you only get 12 shots max with new patch on a repeater. Correction should be in order. You're talking about alt fire, right? If you're using the repeater primary fire you got PLENTY of ammo to take people down.

 

Primary on the HR is inaccurate. It is better for laying down supressive fire than stopping a flag carrier. When you're stopping a flag carrier, accuracy is crucial, and you have better accuracy with secondary than with primary.

 

As a competitive team player, you should be well aware and able to use all modes of many weapons, and not be dependent on a single mode of fire for one weapon. And if the specific gametype can be TOTALLY ruined (your thinking) by altering one or two of the weapons alt-fire to require double ammo, then that specific gametype has problems for you to begin with.

 

In Bespin CTF for example, there are sooooo many ways to the defend the flag without sucking down ammo, I won't insult you by listing them out for you like you don't know them.

 

I use any and all weapons that I can get my hands on. The HR and RL, unfortunately, appear consistantly on CTF maps. I say unfortunately because I like having the golan in my arsenal. When the map limits you to what weapons you have to use, you have to use that weapon. In my JK2 CTF experience, every tournament or ladder match has been played in Yavin, Imperial, and Bespin. Two of those maps contain the HR and RL as the only heavy weapons. Plus, the HR had the highest increase in ammo spendage (from 8 to 25). The Golan's was increased from 5 to 15, if I'm not mistaken. These two weapons use the same type of ammo. All that to say I use whatever weapon I can use. I use the HR as my primary example because of the more than tripled ammo usage.

 

As for defending the flag, it is better to keep the oposing team as far from the flag as possible. That is just good defense. Yes, there are many ways of defending the flag in Bespin, however, nearly all of them require the oposing force to be at the flag stand. Defending the flag is defending the flag, yes, but it's better to keep the oposing team as far from your flag as possible. That requires ammo and guns that do not consume huge amounts of ammo.

 

With regards to your UT ladder point, how many competitive UT CTF matches use the original 4 maps that came with the game? I'm going to guess not many. There are so many incredible CTF maps out there for those other games they don't have to.

 

To be honest, I've never play UT for a competitive league. My experience with UT has been strictly public servers, however, I used UT as an example because of it's excellent CTF gameplay. I can, however, answer your question in Tribes 2 terms. It took about 6-8 months before user-made maps were legal maps in some leagues. I say some because my experience is limited to just a few in my T2 carrier.

 

 

If all you need to make you happy is more ammo for your alt-firing of the repeater....trust me more ammo will be forthcoming when the CTF maps start rolling in. In fact, Raven gave us the .map for Bespin CTF...all you'd have to do is drop some more ammo packs in there, recompile and distribute!

 

Unfortunately, increased ammo on the maps will not completely solve the issue. The ammo respawn rate is rather slow. In a game with 10+ players, ammo will go pretty fast and would most likely be spent in 1/4 the time it takes for ammo to respawn.

 

The quickest fix would be to just set the ammo consumption back to it's original state.

 

Originally posted by Kuroshi

Nice loaded question. Obviously everyone is a real player, but you don't seem to think that people that use the lightsaber are real players. Or am I reading you wrong here?

 

First off, please do not take what I say out of conext (as it appears that you are). I was asking the question to dansolo that said "I'll see the real players online...". It was a question directly asked to him because aparently I'm not a real player according to his standards.

 

I have said it many times (both in this thread and in others), I have no problem with saberists. I have no problems with the saber issues that this patch fixed. I personally found only the tweaking of drain/heal (not to the extreme Raven took it, however) and the hit box to be needed. DFA was very easy to notice and prepare for. Why others couldn't spot it I have no idea. I do, however, have problems with the saberists that enter a FFA/TDM server that allows guns, expects everyone to use a saber, and complains when they die by a gun. Never, ever, have I dissed a saberist that understands entering a gun server could mean their death to a gun, but usually, these people are smarter and tend to gravitate towards the saber only servers.

 

Essentially, you are discounting the argument of others by saying they aren't any good at the game. If they disagree with you, they aren't any good. That is not a way to discuss things.

 

Firstly, look at the ones that I accused of not being any good. They are the ones that rejoice that the guns were nerfed so that they can join in on FFA/TDM servers that allow guns and begin to saber. Your statement that I accuse those who disagree with me as being people who are not any good is completely and totally untrue. 95% of the time I can tell who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. It is to those who have no idea what they are talking about that I get upset with. Coming into a discussion without full knowledge of the topic is no way to discuss things either. I'm accusing you of anything, btw. I'm just making a statement to the general public.

 

I am big into guns myself, but I agree with the saber users on the secondary fire mode changes. They were just too powerful for what it cost. I would have made them weaker for the same amount of ammo, and I think the new ammo cost is a little too much, but I'm just going to play along with it.

 

But the saber users who made this complaint are the ones that do not have the common sense to choose a saber only server. It is these people that I have a problem with, as I stated earlier, and for which I have no sympathy for. If saberists want to play with gunners, then they need to understand and expect to be killed by a gun.

 

Perhaps there are some that see CTF differently than you. Perhaps all your problems could be solved by maps with more ammo. You are into competitive play, so you have a team. Get your team together and make a map for your style of play. We could all do with more CTF maps.

 

Again, please do not take what I say out of context. If you would have included the trailing sentence, you would have adequately been informed of what CTF is about. And no, all our problems would not be solved by adding more ammo to the map. I explained this earlier in my post. As for building a map, that's all well and good. Unfortunately, it is up to the leagues to decide which maps are used and which ones are not.

 

Originally posted by Dvlos

Your a bit wrong. Your also not comparing apples to apples here. Obviously, in all the movies the JEDI had advantages over any troopers. With the exception of the droidekas because they had shields (not because they had guns).

 

I'll have to watch that part again, but I believe one of them says they will not last long against the droidekas. Also, the troopers in the movies were not Jedi's, as nearly every gun toting player is in JK2. The troopers were idiots who couldn't hit anything.

 

However. It would be (perhaps, I dunno) kinda 2-dimensional if every HAD to play with sabers, that wasn't the spirit or guideline layed out by Jk1. To make this game compete with out shooters, IMO, they added guns that just don't exist in Star WArs. The only thing they can add and stay true to SW is, blasters, big blaster, small blasters, spears (ROTJ), grappling hook things (Bobba Fett in ROTJ), energy balls (Gungans), and thermal detonators (ROTJ and ESB).

 

If everything that showed up in the games were limited to what appears in the movies, we'd have some pretty boring games. I've often used the argument that if the emperor hadn't used lightning in RotJ, people would say lightning was un-Star Wars.

 

BUT -

 

If that were the case, then anyone who picks up a gun would be outmatched, a trained Jedi can deflect and push everything.

 

If Jedi's could do everything and be invincible, the game would be pretty boring as well. Jedi's aren't God, they have their faults and weeknesses just like everyone else. Read the Hand of Thrawn series. You'll find something in the ending that will surprise you about Jedi (mainly, they can't deflect blaster fire forever).

 

That's what patches are about.. the balance. SOme people like guns, with force, or NF, others like sabers. Personally I enjoyed the creative weapons of JK1, don't really care for them in JK2, mainly because the saber combat is 200 times more interesting than the guns.

 

The weapons were already balanced, sorry to say. They were only "tweaked" because saberists were joining FFA/TDM servers that allowed guns and were getting blasted. In CTF, I've had saberists pull my gun, push me down, and some other clever attacks against a gunner. I killed them 98% of the time, but at least they were trying. Had I not had the store of weapons I carry, the kill ratio would have been more 50/50.

 

*thought strikes* Ooh! Perhaps I can say what the saberists have been saying about gunners since this patch. Maybe the saberists needed to try harder to get better. Better aim and better tactics.........Hmmmm.......just maybe.

 

As for saber combat being 200 times more interesting than guns, that's your opinion. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch two lighties dueling while I stand in line to play.

 

I would have loved to see some more creative guns in JK2, the flechette gun is dumb its just like UT and so is that sniper gun. I would have prefered to see something like a "droid arm" or some kind of heavy chain-gun type enormous gun, that reduces your movement and turning speed but deals tons of shots out. Or a stun gun, crap like that...

 

Technically, the fletchet isn't just like it is in UT. The secondary fire in UT is one ball that doesn't bounce. It explodes on impact. As for the sniper rifle, it's nothing like it is in UT. JK2's a pea shooter, unless you're looking through a scope. The sniper rifle in UT kept its power despite looking through the scope or not.

 

I'm all for having creative weapons, however, that's not what this discussion is about.

 

BUt what other people have said is valid. If you dont like guns, or getting shot in the back while sabering, your in the wrong server. FFA means anything goes, trip mines, det packs, FFA is all about the "never standing still" and racking up kills.

 

If you want to saber with class go to a duel server. ETc... There are 6 options and all the servers seem to have is CTF/FFA/Duel. In any case there are plenty of Saber Only servers out there.. so bitching about guns is stupid. And I also agree they made CTF fun pre-patch and a little more cumbersome post patch. CTF got hurt with this patch and so did Dark Jedi.

 

I think they should have made grip MORE powerful not less. Dark Rage should also be tweaked as should Protection. Dark rage should double DMG or something.

 

Considering Light Jedi can absorb, then Rage should be the counter (and probably is at the moment), to absorb abusers. But if someone is raged then Prot should be the answer, or Prot and push/speed something.. you know?

 

Amen. Grip was weak to begin with. Range was small, and damage was even smaller. The answer to Dark Rage is grip. That way you can keep the dark raged at bay until it wears off. Then all you gotta do is slash.

 

I apologize for the length of this post. This will probably be my last since I'm practically saying the same thing over and over and over again.

 

In short, the ideal solution:

 

Revert the patch. Build a new patch that gives the saberists the tweaks they want and gives the gunners what they want.

[Solo4114]

I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll post it here too. Although from now on, in patches where people are complaining, I'll just refer them to this post.

 

First off, thanks Raven. You've earned a loyal customer in me. You paid attention to what the fans wanted, and gave it to 'em. You balanced the game, and made it more fun (for me at least).

 

I like the patch so far. I haven't played as a darkside jedi yet, but as a lightside jedi, it's quite well balanced, I think. A lot of people don't like the patch though. I'm going to go through and explain why I feel that the patch has helped gameplay, at least for a guy like me who prefers to use the sabre.

 

1.) Nerfing of Drain and Heal

 

Now, I haven't conducted extensive testing of this, I'll admit, but it seems that nerfing both is valid. Maybe they nerfed drain too much, but as a lightside jedi, I really don't mind not being able to heal 50% health with 25% force at level three. I think it's pretty balanced, personally. Drain doesn't suck force power nearly as fast, and heal doesn't give you back inordinate amounts of health for very little mana the way it did. This makes for less abuse of force powers. We'll get into defining abuse later on.

 

2.) Absorb is invisible

 

This was absolutely necessary as a change. With the old blue glow on, absorb was totally useless. really. Especially with drain being so highly powered. Sure, you could turn it on immediately after the enemy attacked you with drain or lightning or grip, but they'd still get those few seconds of drain off of you (which, under the old way, meant you were down to at least 50% mana when you turned on absorb), or could hoist you up in the air using grip or what have you. Mostly, in 1.02, I'd only use absorb as a warning sign to say "Your mind tricks will not work on me, boy." Unfortunately, this meant that darksiders could simply wait until my force was drained, and could then just grip and drop me.

 

As said elsewhere by someone other than myself, you don't know when a drain attack is coming, so you shouldn't know when an absorb defense is turned on. Fair's fair.

 

3.) Guns being nerfed

 

Personally, I never played with guns much. I'm just more into sabres really. No DL-44 pistol, so guns leave much to be desired, for me.

 

I'll say this. I tried the patch out for the first time on a server I started, playing an FFA game. I loaded bots that use guns and bots that use sabres and force. And I joined in as a sabre/force user. Wanna know what happened? The solo bot, one that's been configured to avoid sabres and use guns, owned everyone else. When I could FIND the damn bot, I still could hold my own, but on an FFA server, at least as far as the bots were concerned, the guns still could do major damage.

 

I did try using the repeater and in alt-fire mode, managed to take out three bots in a matter of about three seconds, so if it is nerfed at all, I couldn't really notice.

 

Besides, even if they are nerfed, you can still probably find a cluster of dueling jedis and lob a few splash-damage shots into them.

 

4.) Blocking

 

Blocking makes the game more intricate and require a bit more thought. This notion that you had to have skill to be good with 1.02 is only partially true. From what I saw, you had to do the following to be good at 1.02:

 

- You had to know the moves

- You had to know how to maneuver

- You had to know how to time both your swinging and your running, so as to make sure you hit the other guy.

 

In 1.02 you had no chance to block. Now you do. In the new patch, 1.03, you have to know the following to be good:

 

- You still have to have know the moves

- You still have to know how to maneuver

- You still have to know how to time your swings so as to hit

 

BUT, with 1.03, you ALSO have to know how to block. Yes, you can sit there and block continually and hope the other guy burns to death on your sabre. If he does that, whose fault is that? If you're in battle and you simply stand still and let a guy throw himself on your sword, did you kill him, or did he kill himself? For the record, you still can maneuver to a position where the enemy isn't guarding. Try rolling, jumping, sidestepping, etc. You know what you also might try doing? BLOCKING. For a change of pace, let the other guy attack YOU, then when you've blocked him, attack HIM. I've played on servers recently, and have seen people be parried actually. They try a series of swings, and when you time your swing right, it seemed that you could parry their blow, knocking their blade aside and leaving them open for a second so you could deliver a hit.

 

Sabre fighting now requires more thought from BOTH parties. Yes, you can just stand still and block the other guy while he charges at you slowly eating away his own health. But if you're the other guy, DON'T RUN UP AGAINST THE SABRE. Instead, try attacking, and counterattacking. If you're blocked, try a different angle of attack. Remember, the other guy can stand there and block, but so can you. Eventually, someone has to make a move, and that's where PARRIES come in. You can block forever, but unless your opponent is stupid enough to skewer himself on your sabre, you still aren't doing any damage to him.

 

Now, with blocking added, and parries implemented, you have to wait for openings in your opponents' defense. You have to time your counterattacks so as to knock your opponent out of position. And you have to know how to attack your opponent where he isn't protecting himself.

 

This is all what we call skill. It requires thought, an understanding of tactics, and an understanding of your own capabilities. In addition, you have to understand the MIND of your opponent. Is he the kind of guy who's going to charge at you, swinging blindly with light stance? Is he going to wait for an opening and try to cleave you in two with heavy stance? The ability to defend yourself now means that both you and your opponent engage in battle not just in terms of who can click the keys fastest, or who knows X number of moves, but also who can win the psychological battle. Who knows themself and knows their enemy better. THAT is true skill. Not just who can time a heavy stance swing best.

 

5.) Stance tweaks

 

a.) Light stance

 

Light stance is now truly light. As in nimble and quick. It's not simply "weak". Light stance in 1.02 was worthless. Since you couldn't really block with it, and you couldn't really dish out much damage with it, it served no purpose. Ergo, people would use medium or heavy stance. Now that light stance is the best DEFENSIVE stance, it has a real function. You use light stance while on defense, and then switch to medium or heavy when you want to go on O. This is a balanced change, and makes this not simply the worst stance, but rather, a stance that accomplishes a different goal than the others. It is now another tool available to players, not simply the worst stance in the game. Also, according to Raven, light stance's own lunge move has been nerfed itself. In some ways then, light stance has been further underpowered. No complaints here.

 

b.) Medium stance

 

Medium stance, according to Raven, hasn't really been tweaked that much. What they did with medium stance was to make it so that you couldn't spam a single move over and over again. Instead, you can only get chains of moves if you continually change your direction. This accomplishes two feats: (1) it again adds more true skill to the game. Instead of simply being able to repeadedly do one move, you now have to actually put some thought into moves. At least moreso than you used to. (2) it makes for a more interesting and intricate game. Try out different combos. See how many moves you can chain together. Figure out how certain combos will help you best. In my mind, this makes the game more fun. Regardless, it ain't much of a change anyway. So even if you don't like it, it really doesn't HURT the game any.

 

c.) Heavy stance

 

Heavy stance is now able to truly chain moves together. In addition, its damage potential has been reduced (I believe). It is no longer the best stance in the game. Again, much like light stance, it is simply another tool available to the player.

 

Personally, I never had much use for heavy stance, even in 1.02. It was too slow for my tastes. I prefer faster gameplay, and the ability to react quickly to changes in battle. Heavy stance reduces your reaction speed (by virtue of you taking a while to recover from a previous move), and while it dealt out a hell of a lot of damage, it was just too slow for me to use in the kind of fighting I prefer to do. I DID try the method of timing heavy swings while charging and backing up in 1.02 and found that to be a fairly effective way to score kills. It was also, however, extremely boring, and one of the primary factors that led to my deleting the game from my hard drive and not playing it any more, once I'd beaten SP. Now the game is back on my drive, because heavy stance is just another stance, not the uber-stance.

 

It can still be useful, though. I've gotten into sabre locks with opponents, and knocked an opponent to the ground, and wished I'd bothered to spend points on heavy stance. A swift overhead chop at that moment would have finished the enemy off quickly, instead of my having to spend another few minutes slashing away at them with medium stance.

 

Heavy is not useless now. It has its uses, the uses have just changed. Instead of being the stance of choice, it is now simply a choice of stance. This is what we call...say it with me now...GAME BALANCE. No single stance can always beat another stance. Nor can the use of a single stance beat any opponent you encounter. In lightsabre battles now, you actually have to switch stances to accomplish different ends. This is the end result of the changes to the stances.

 

Want to defend? Use light stance.

Want to to finish off your opponent, or force an opponent to retreat momentarily? Use heavy stance.

Want to be able to react and respond quickly to an attack, while not sacrificing ALL of your defense, and ALL of your offense? Use medium stance.

 

Want to own the competition? USE ALL THREE STANCES.

 

6.) DFA tweaks

 

I never noticed DFA being that much trouble, since I didn't play much on FFA servers where it seemed to cause the most trouble. There were, however, NUMEROUS posts on this forum about the problems with DFA. There were complaints about people using it exclusively; the fact that if you ran BY an enemy who'd used it you'd still die; the fact that you could turn mid-move, and turn even after you'd finished the move; and the fact that there really was no "moment of vulnerability" to the move, given that you could still be killed by a sabre buried in the ground, even if you approached from the side.

 

Therefore, nerfing and fixing DFA abuse was absolutely a welcome change, to me at least. Though I hadn't encountered abuse of DFA on servers, I sure wouldn't have enjoyed playing against people who did that. Even if the move was beatable/avoidable, it would've gotten intensely BORING after a while. Being a sabre guy, I like to have duels, even on FFA servers. I like having a drawn-out battle with a skilled opponent. I like having to adapt tactics, and try new strategies. If an opponent simply uses the same move over and over and over again, I get bored with them, even if I'm winning. That's what I consider abuse of a move. If you use the same technique, move, or force power again and again, I consider it abuse. That's my definition for in-game abuse. If you disagree with that definition, go for it. I don't really care much one way or the other.

 

DFA hasn't even been nerfed all that much. Read the official post by ChangKhan. He'll explain how to perform the move. Then, if you want to do it well, PRACTICE IT. The move always SHOULD have had a moment where you were left vulnerable, since it was a one-shot-one-kill move in the first place. There SHOULD be MAJOR costs associated with executing that move since, if you were successful, there was a HUGE benefit. For those of you who wish you could still spam DFA, and are going to leave the game because you can't, personally, I don't care. You won't be missed as far as I'm concerned.

 

I think what Raven has done is to balance what had previously been an unbalanced game. Could they have maybe done it better, subtly? Sure. Costs for force powers could've been tweaked maybe, certain fixes could've been implemented better maybe, who knows. The biggest problem that I see is that the patch wasn't actually an add-on. By this, I mean that the patch is TRULY a patch. It patches OVER the existing version, removing 1.02 and its play mechanics from sight, in a sense. An add-on, whereby people could still choose to play in either 1.02 or 1.03 mode would have made everyone happy, I think. Would this have been feasible? Who knows. Maybe doing so would've screwed with the netcode. Maybe doing so would've made the game inoperable. Maybe it would've made tech support harder. I have no idea. For whatever reason, Raven decided to fundamentally change the gameplay mechanics in a way that I happen to support, but a lot of people seem to dislike. I think, however, that they did this because they don't really NEED to make it a server side option. That option actually still exists, sort of. Read on to find out more.

 

Those of you who dislike 1.03, I have this advice to give:

 

1.) If you find you're getting your ass kicked using the same tactics from 1.02, change your tactics. If you want to practice your tactics, I recommend either dueling with bots, or replaying the SP game. Since MP is now essentially like SP (how it always SHOULD have been, in my opinion), playing SP would be great practice for the new 1.03 style of play. Try downloading that ladder level, where you play against larger and larger waves of reborn. I'll bet just doing that will improve your skills at the 1.03 style of play pretty damn quickly. I think if you give it a chance, you'll find that the new MP plays just like SP did. Remember how much fun SP was? Aside from the mario jumping puzzles I mean. Remember how awesome sabre combat was the first time you played it? If you haven't played SP yet, PLAY IT. You're missing out. When I first got the game, I immediately loaded up MP. I didn't bother with SP. MP was cool, but when I started playing SP, I discovered that SP was MUCH cooler. Anyway, try learning and adapting to the new style of play. You may find it to be not that much of a change of pace from SP. Give it a chance. you may even enjoy it.

 

2.) If you absolutely hate the 1.03 patch, guess what. You're not alone! Plenty of other people out there feel the same way. Including plenty of server admins. Here's what you should do if you don't want to give up 1.02. First, delete, then reinstall the game, so as to remove the 1.03 patch. Then, either start your own server, or play on a server with 1.02 enabled. How do you find a 1.02 server? Well, the easiest way is to download All Seeing Eye. You can then create a custom filter that will check version numbers and filter OUT any server with 1.03 enabled. Simple as that! You can also configure All Seeing Eye for other custom filters, IE: sabres only, no force, guns only, etc. It's a great program. If you don't already have it, I highly recommend it. If you don't have it, either do a search for it on Google, or just go to http://www.udpsoft.com, I think. (can't remember if that's the name of their website or not...)

 

Ultimately, the choice is yours. But don't be fooled. You DO have an option. If you really like the game, and other people feel the same way, there WILL be servers for you to play on. Those of us that like the 1.03 patch, there WILL be servers for us to play on as well. This is, I believe, why Raven didn't bother to make it a server-side option to play 1.02 or 1.03. Because they didn't HAVE to. You can simply not upgrade to 1.03 if you don't want to play that way. This is also, I believe, why Raven will NOT be changing the game back to the way it was. These guys probably worked damn hard on this for a long time, deciding what to change, changing it, tweaking the changes, fixing bugs, and finally releasing it. They're not going to instantly undo all that work and piss off all the fans who are currently QUITE happy with the changes, especially when YOU already have the ability to fix what you don't like on your own. Don't want to play 1.03 style? Don't install the 1.03 patch then. Just stick with 1.02. It's not like Raven forced everyone to go to 1.03. You voluntarily downloaded the patch and installed it yourself. If you don't like it, uninstall it and play with 1.02 instead. See? Everyone's happy this way. 1.02 fans can still play the way they like, and 1.03 fans can play the way they like. Everybody wins.

 

 

I have one final comment. Well, two final comments, actually.

 

First off, my initial inclination was to start posting things like "HA HA!! WHINERS!! How's it feel to be on the $#itty end of the stick for a change? You're all WHINERS!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!" But you know what? That sucks. Calling people whiners because they articulately express their own dissatisfaction with specific aspects of the game is not whining, no matter what side of the argument you're on. Therefore, while I'd REALLY like to get in the face of everyone who dislikes the current patch and says as much on the board, since that was how myself and a lot of people who disliked 1.02 were treated, I'm not going to. I hereby declare that, as far as I'm concerned, those of you who ARTICULATELY express your grievances are NOT whiners. On the other hand, if all you do is write a post saying "This sucks now!! Gameplay sucks!! I hate it!! Fix it!! Lucasarts/Raven/Activision sucks!! You guys ruined the game!!" then you ARE whining. Offer constructive criticism. Support your argument. Clearly express your points. Don't just write a bunch of bitching and moaning with no substantive complaints or support for your position (and PLEASE don't write it in haxor -- you just look like a frigging idiot when you do that and no one will take you seriously). Look at it this way. Fans who didn't like 1.02 complained. They complained on here and they complained to Raven. Do you think they simply wrote "You guys suck!!! I hate the game!!! It sucks!!! Fix it!!!"??? Do you think they even wrote saying things like "FIX BLOCKING!!! IT SUCKS!!"?? No, those of us who complained to Raven, and those of us whose opinions were likely taken seriously and taken to heart (which, along with Raven's decisions, ultimately led to the patch being in its current form) actually took time to explain what we didn't like, why we didn't like it, and how it affected gameplay. We were clear, we were articulate, and we offered constructive criticism. If you don't like things as they are, I suggest you adopt that approach. Who knows. Maybe you'll get something done.

 

Oh, and the other final thought is, "Take care of yourselves...and each other."

 

P.S. Sorry for the duplicate post, but I felt it was appropriate for this thread. Like I said, I won't be posting this russian novel of a post again, just linking to this post now. My apologies to the admins and to people who've now read this litany twice.

[Borf]

Well said mate

 

Cheers

[Jedi Legend]

That post was so inteligent, it made me proud to be a 1.3 patch supporter. Well said Solo.

[Spider AL]

SpiderAL - long time no see...

 

Oh hi TDS, Yeah... It was nice while it lasted.

 

when I last saw you, we were debating bunnyhops and fanboys

 

Actually I was asserting that guns were necessary in JO, using a thread about bunny-hopping as a soapbox. So you're wrong there.

 

For the record, what you and others were preaching wasn't a "just live with it and adapt" philosophy. It was a "hey this is an fps first and SW game second, go find yourself a saber only server if you don't like guns."

 

Rubbish, I don't care what interpretation you put on it, what I was saying along with the others was that people such as yourself, who were whining about how there was "BUGGEY CHEETS" in the game should have adapted and stopped going on about it.

 

You're last paragraph is dead on target.

 

Yes TDS, it is dead on target. Just like the other paragraph in that post.

 

You can conserve ammo all you want. Conservation is no problem. My aim, and 50% of all the other competitive CTF teams, have excellent aim. Conservation isn't the problem, the problem is have not enough ammo to do our jobs. Defense needs ammo, mid-fielders need ammo, and attackers need ammo. Yes, both teams are in the same predicament, however, that's a lame excuse.

 

Ragey! it's been ages, we should get together sometime for a beer and a spot of nostalgia for the old JK1 days. What have you been doing with yourself?

 

Back to the topic, anyhoo. Hmm, let's take the flechette as an example... Two F2 hits will kill a normal attacker. With extra health or Force aids, three hits will do it. Three hits costs 75 ammo, leaving you one shot spare. So let's say two defenders with ONLY 100 ammo and a fleshy each... they could take out up to three attackers before they ran out of ammo. That's not including the use of force powers which make opponents impossible to miss, or vulnerable to primary fire... To me, a disciplined team could share ammo in a disciplined way, and back each other up with other weapons and forces. Sure, the patch requires some tweaks and refinements to team tactics, but different isn't necessarily worse.

 

Oh, and the sabre is my best friend in CTF! Probably because people don't expect me to use it in the ways I use it... but I ain't going to tell all these fewlish sabreists my secrets, so we'll leave it at that.

 

In my experience (one day's experience, anyway ) what the patch changes... and ALL it changes, is one's reliance on force. I've had to use a lot more force powers to do the same amount of damage today. Gun-wise, I've gotten closer to my opponents... dodged tighter shots... used the force to hold the skipping fellows still... Ahh it reminded me of the good old days on BGJ.

 

In fact, instead of being called a "cheeeep cheeter" or a "gunwhore" today, I was called a "lame force user" a lot. Which I found amusing, at any rate.

 

It was Phayyde who originally wrote the masterful spoof containing the line "Know what? No ANY force nuthin! I've died too many times from lamers using those force powers, so byebye force! True Jedi don't need force. " I salute him, for the prophesy of what whiners would be saying in about two weeks time. lol

 

So anyhoo, I totally respect your concerns about the patch, but I have to say the day of the gunner hasn't drawn to a close quite yet. Certainly one must use them slightly more in combination with sabres and force, but it's a small price to pay to shut a lot of these whining sabreists up, I feel.

 

But hey, they'll be whining again in a week's time, and folks like you and I will be the cause of it. Trust.

 

Take care Rage.

[Solo4114]

Thanks guys. I just felt that it had to be said. Also, I wanted to let people know that they can still enjoy the game, regardless of which side of the debate they fall on. Plus I wanted to give a really clear defense of 1.03 without actually slamming anyone else. Too often we get dragged down into a "n00b" fight, with folks simply calling each other names and saying that folks are using "n00b" logic and "n00b" arguments. Those aren't really arguments, though, just character assassination. I wanted to take a stance where you really couldn't attack character, since it just wasn't an issue in the post. Hopefully, it'll spark more focused debate.

[Raven_Xwing]

Ever since the new patch several things have shown up in my game now.

1. when i use force drain my , when its near running out of force energy my player automaticaly throws the saber

2. sometimes when i use the secondary fire key it switched to the lightsaber

3. in single player when i use the bacta key my player automatically puts on the night vision goggles! \very strange!

anyone else having these things happen? Raven any answers?

[Aoshi]

hehe wow that guy really summed it up i would just like to say that i really like the ctf aspect of the game as well. running around killing people gets kinda old after a while and ctf is a nice variance. i think that raven did a good job in this new patch and i would like to thank them for all their hard work and dedication. we all appreciate it

[WD Gambit]

If it hadnt "newbified" the game.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

The NF CTF/TDM ladders were pretty inactive before, but I'd say 1.03 finished them off. Trying to defend a flag with a saber, 4 shots of ammo, and no force doesn't make for enjoyable gameplay.

 

Drain did need a tweek, but not that bad. Rage and I tested it the other night under 1.03. It cost him his entire mana pool to take me down to like 1/3 of my mana. So, basicaly, using that power does more damage to him then me. WTF...

 

Grip didn't need to be fixed, no one complained about running and gripping. It was weak enough in 1.02.

 

Heal is barely worth using. Maybe it needed a slight adjustment, but I don't even use it anymore.

 

The ammo situation makes competative CTF and TDM pointless. The gameplay just isn't there.

 

It's amazing, competative JK1 lasted for over 4 years with no patches. JK2 competative gaming ended after a month.

 

Sab battles are longer because of blocking, that makes saberist even easier targets for gunners. The complains will not stop because they nerfed the guns. They pretty much nerfed everything with this patch.

 

It's like Raven is trying to remove that skill facter so no one has to actually learn the game. I dont know if they realize this, but MP JK2 won't last long if they don't fix this.

 

UT2k3 is due to have a MP demo out at the end of this month. It'll be intresting to see how many JK2 servers are converted to UT2 servers. If raven doesn't release the tools to make mods, or fix the nerfing in a 1.04 patch, I think the WD JK2 server will become UT2.

[Vanor]

Just feel like responding to this, for the most part I don't disagree with the point he makes, but the attuide dripping from this post really doesn't help those on his side of the debate.

 

Originally posted by WD Gambit

iIagree with just about everything rage has said, this patch in a nut shell hurts high skill lvl gaming

 

This seems to somehow imply that those who like the patch have no skill, and that guns are the only thing in JK2 that require skill.

 

Of course all the newbies praise this patch because saber battles are more "jedi like" or because it got rid of the dreaded DFA move that was never a problem bc/ it was so easy to avoid.

 

More of the same... Sabers are for skilless newbies, and only guns and CTF are tests of skill.

 

Raven if you want to anger all the people that actully are competitive gamers just do nothing because your going get from us what your giving us now Nothing.

 

I love the attuide here, it somehow seems to say that competitive gamers are the only ones who should have a say in how the game plays. That Raven screwed over any player with "skill" in this patch and made it so the newbies rule. If your that good, then you should still be able to beat a true newbie.

 

I'm more then willing to support changes to JK2 to make CTF playable again, provided that they don't remove the SP saber feel they changed MP to. There's no reason that the guners and duelist can't both be happy with JK2. The two styles of game play are different enough that we could have both.

 

But when you have someone who goes on about how much Raven sucks, and how they destroyed the game and made it so you don't need any skill... Well you won't really get many results that way.

 

Say what you dislike about the patch and how to fix it... just ranting won't help anyone, but can hurt your chances of getting what you want.

[vulcanspy]

I've posted this elsewhere, but thought it might look nice here too...

 

I don't intend to sound demeaning, but if the game had been released with features similiar to v1.03, and then a patch came out with features similiar to v1.02c, you'd all be complaining about how guns are overpowered, saber combat is too short, and dear Lord why oh why did they take away the double-tap flipkick 'cause now I keep kickflipping off 'lips' on bridges and stuff. It's really amusing if you think about it. I'll even be big enough to admit that I'd probably be making the exact opposite of the argument I'm making now.

 

We all bought the game (in theory). After we bought it, there were things about the game we all did not like. Yet we played it and sang it's praises anyway. Now the patch comes out, and there are different things we don't like. But this time, we all say it's ruined the game and half of us are giving up on it. Well I for one am still planning on getting my money's worth, and if it means I have to relearn a few things, that does not disuade me from having fun. There will always be things I like and dislike about any changes or additions, but I can deal with that. I respectfully suggest that we all try to do the same.

 

-VulcanSpy

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by vulcanspy

I've posted this elsewhere, but thought it might look nice here too...

 

I don't intend to sound demeaning, but if the game had been released with features similiar to v1.03, and then a patch came out with features similiar to v1.02c, you'd all be complaining about how guns are overpowered, saber combat is too short, and dear Lord why oh why did they take away the double-tap flipkick 'cause now I keep kickflipping off 'lips' on bridges and stuff. It's really amusing if you think about it. I'll even be big enough to admit that I'd probably be making the exact opposite of the argument I'm making now.

 

We all bought the game (in theory). After we bought it, there were things about the game we all did not like. Yet we played it and sang it's praises anyway. Now the patch comes out, and there are different things we don't like. But this time, we all say it's ruined the game and half of us are giving up on it. Well I for one am still planning on getting my money's worth, and if it means I have to relearn a few things, that does not disuade me from having fun. There will always be things I like and dislike about any changes or additions, but I can deal with that. I respectfully suggest that we all try to do the same.

 

-VulcanSpy

 

Repeat after me:

 

Drastic gameplay changes = bad.

[Kuroshi]

Originally posted by WD_Rage First off, please do not take what I say out of conext[/b]

 

My bad, I didn't see that you were responding to something dansolo (?) said. Seeing what you wrote without noticing that broke my rationality for a minute.

 

I don't like those people that can't stand dying either, but I still don't think that the changes were put in solely due to them. I believe the 'nerfed' guns were too strong, and CTF is still a great game with the changes involved.

 

Again, please do not take what I say out of context. If you would have included the trailing sentence, you would have adequately been informed of what CTF is about. And no, all our problems would not be solved by adding more ammo to the map.

 

You said this before:

"Conservation isn't the problem, the problem is have not enough ammo to do our jobs."

 

I took that to mean that there wasn't enough ammo around, rather than that you didn't have enough ammo on you. Sorry again for misunderstanding. As for the trailing sentence, I read it and understood it, but didn't feel like I needed to quote it. Here it is for reference:

"It's about defending your flag, controling key points of the map, and controling the enemy's base."

 

That's true. My only disagreement with you is that it can still be done fine with the new patch. Nothing else to say here, heh.

[Lucky]

Spider, what about rage?

 

I stick to rage/speed almost exclusively because its the closest I can get to JK's gameplay. You could fire 8 shots point blank at me and not kill me.

 

Half the time i shoot 8 shots at my feet just plowing thru defense. My rate of fire is faster, my movement is faster, AND i do more damage. All I have to do is take a lil more time to find ammo and then I can plow my way thru an entire team, no matter how good they are, they don't have enough ammo to kill me.

 

If there were 2 of us, if we were using energize like us competitive types tend to do with rage/speed, it'd be even harder to stop us. The damage increase is less than the damage decrease, so telling people to try the same thing doesn't work.

 

It didn't even work in 1.02, i had to chase a friend of mine out of my base in bespin on a pub we were whoring, and between the 2 of us we ended up killing my entire team twice using the same exact tactics. People were getting flung around like pinballs on spawn.

 

The guns didn't need to be nerfed, they got nerfed because the sabers got nerfed, and that lil nerfing spilled into CTF.

 

What should have been done, was to make the saber a nice lil stunted BFG for all of the people who refuse to use anything else. Mebe a one hit kill against gunners. Leave the changes to the saber combat system in place, but make it more useful against ranged weapons.

 

As it is, its now impossible to a) kill a gunner with a saber in time to do any good, and b) defend yer flag consistently because the guns got nerfed.

 

What people were calling for was that the saber be made MORE effective, now its LESS effective but more cinematic. Personally, I like the changes in general made to the saber, however its entirely useless now, and so are my guns.

 

CTF is now an exercise in sitting around staring at eachother wondering why we're not playing a different game. We play CTF to compete as a group against other folks, but when our means of competition gets nerfed out from under us, we're a lil dumbfounded.

 

Raven needs to up the effectiveness of everything in the game. If that means you can get by doing one thing for a long time, then so be it. So long as you can do one of MANY things, thats not a problem. Eventually people will develop the skill needed to do more than one of those depending on the situation and the game will require more skill to succeed at.

 

One more note, saying that the ammo constraints even remotely affect saberists is a lil fraudlent. Obviously, we can all agree that the nerfs were meant to balance the 2; guns vs sabers. However, because the saber got nerfed so heavily in terms of damage, people cluster together even tighter now, and make it even easier to get huge group kills with any explosive weapon.

 

There's less ammo, but it translates into more kills in a DM situation against saberists. So essentially its even easier to run around smashing poor helpless folks who want to play sabers.

 

So the nerfed guns didn't do much other than mildly stem the tide of huge sickeningly genocidal group kills. And im seriously tired of indulging in them, thats why I started playing CTF. DM was just a matter of smashing the every loving crap out of anybody who was sabering, or chasing the one other guy on the server who was using a gun around until I got bored.

 

The saber was at least mildly useful before the patch in a ctf match, its still not TOTALLY useless, but its much harder to use in a situation where a very slight mistake can have you respawning.

 

What needs to be done to balance the guns vrs the sabers, is make the sabers more deadly against guns.

 

It's like tic tac toe, a saber should translate into a very quick and elegant kill against someone not holding one, and that should be that. It should of course require you to get close enough to get a swing in, but nothing more. (this would also draw people into dueling situations more often, rather than risk getting smacked to death by some beligerant JKii.net forum goer) =P

 

The saber would then be on par with the rest of the weapons. The guns in general SHOULD do at LEAST the minimum amount needed to keep someone away from your flag.

 

Thats really all we're asking, all of us who have posted are not in the slightest going to offer the notion that we wouldn't appreciate another useful tool like the saber in our tool bags. The problem is that most of our other tools are ineffective now.

 

There'v been other complaints that people have mentioned, but those are very minor things to tweak. Adjust the damage on the saber slightly to keep duels moving along faster, nixing everything in the saber combat that is an obvious repetitive exploit.

 

The biggest issue for us, those of us that consider ourselves competitive CTF'rs, is how they attempted to balance the sabers with the guns.

 

Again, if the saber were to be made into a weapon that could actually kill us without requireing somekind of ingenious talent or a sheer stroke of luck, we'd all love it and use it.

 

As it is, it has no advantage over a ranged weapon other than defense against anything thats not explosive. Personally, the solution I see is to make it VERY deadly against guns, and return the guns to their previous abilities if not actually making them slightly MORE effective.

 

That would allow us to use both, much to our delight and the delight of anyone who enjoys a lightstick over a boom cannon.

Personally, I use one over the other simply out of necessity.

 

This is just a suggestion, feel free to point out the errors in my logic.

 

 

 

Lucky

[NyghtWalker]

All I know is I want my team mates and opponents back. Before the patch I frequented about 5 CTF servers a night depending on their slots available. Each of them on the average had at least 15 players. Since these servers have patched up they have been completely devoid of human life (although I did find a bot on one server). This by itself should tell the Raven crew that the patch has taken the enjoyment out of CTF.

 

I've said it before in other threads and I'll repeat it in brief here. Pre-patch CTF was a blast, I am primarily a saberist and 1v1 I do ok...not good, not bad. I win some, I lose a bit more than I win. I excel at multiple opponents vs me though (like when I have the flag and several people are trying to get it back from me). I play on guns+saber CTF servers and I loved being able to jump around, roll here, dodge there and force pull the gun from my opponent just before slapping them a few times with my saber and moving onto the next person trying to take the flag from me. Sometimes I'd die but more often than not I'd be able to hold onto the flag, kill quite a few of my enemies at the time and score for my team.

 

Now that the patch is out and saber damage has been reduced (except for spamming a backstab attack) saberists are at a vast disadvantage against even 1 gun user, let alone 5 of them. Even with the higher ammo consumption the gun users are still better off than their saber wielding counterparts.

 

True I could find a saber only server but that's not what I personally like. I liked the challenge of deflecting blaster bolts, dodging the various alt fires, force pushing the rockets, force pulling guns. But what was an entertaining challenge has now become an excercise in futility because as it is if the gunner has ANY skill at all with the gun then he/she will riddle the saberist before the saber wielding jedi can do enough damage with his whiffle bat to put a stop to the gunner.

 

I'll continue playing weither this is fixed or not, but my enjoyment factor of the game has greatly declined.

[Lucky]

Exactly, they nerfed the sabers fairly badly, and nobody's even bothered to take the issue up yet.

 

While satisfying the duelists, they screwed the chances of anyone wanting to use a saber in a game with guns. + they screwed the CTF'r so bad he can't hope to defend his flag properly in just about any situation.

 

Solution:

 

Make the saber a one hit kill against anyone not using it. Give us our ammo back. That fixes AND enhances CTF. The other issues with this patch are going to require different fixes.

 

 

Lucky

[Nill the Mean]

1. Less saber clashing during attack animations (not none, less)

2. Smaller blocking radius for more realistic feel

3. Less sparking, no fireworks please

4. Up the damage on all saber attacks (apart from backstab, which needs a small nerf)

4. Add fists

5. Add a Gungan you can hit with a stick

[Jellybelly]

Hi all

 

Well, reading the posts here and the amount of different views and opinions that are expressed, suggests even more to me that serverside options is the way to go.

 

I don't think that Raven will ever make eveyone happy (that's obviously impossible), and it's really not their obligation to do so either.

 

However, instead of trying to tweak out the "ultimate" patch...I think Raven would win over big with more serverside options, if it's technically possible that is.

 

If it is, then giving the multiplayer gameplay teaking responsability to the server admins, would deliver more freedom and control for the users (giving them the gameplay they want - regardless of taste), as well as get some public heat off Ravens' back.

 

I can't beleive peeps be going "This suck! Fix it!". They obviously do not have any idea of the amount of work involved. Furthermore, Raven has already released a finished product, and apart from fixing obvious bugs they can hardly be said to have any obligation to "fix" anything else for us.

 

Some time has past now since Raven released this game...and as far as I know it's got great reviews, it's doing good in sales and it's got a big user community behind it (just look at this Forum).

 

Considering the above, it's to me pretty unlikely that Ravens serious efforts to tweak the game according to public demand is mainly due to economical interests (selling more copies). It is far more likely to me that they are a developer who actually cares about their customers and take pride in their product, sincerely trying to make it as "perfect" as they can to as many gameplayers out there as they can.

 

I even feel I might be asking for far to much when suggesting to implement major multiplayer serverside gameplay options. Nevertheless, I still see it as probably being the most logical step to take considering the circumstances, in order to end this debate once and for all.

 

Anyways...thank's a million to Raven for a great game, a great patch...and for trying so hard to please us. You did an excellent job indeed.

 

Thank's You guys.

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

 

PS To fellow visitors: I made some edits to my previous post in this thread regarding dismemberment. If You feel like reading it, You can do so here (my post is in the middle of the page).

[Nill the Mean]

But as I said before to you, which you probably didn't read...

 

With so many serverside options you would have to look for ages to get the type of game you want. Everytime you log onto a server it might be very different. There are not enough servers to support that much more game-types. I find it hard to find the type of game I want now already, sometimes.