1.03: Intelligent Saber Combat Discussion

[blujay]

Originally posted by UsagiYojimbo

- Saber duels seem to be more fun now. It takes multiple hits which for saber purists is a good thing.

 

Is it really? Think about it. It's sort of like a game of chess. In chess, if you are playing a skilled opponent, one mistake may cost you the game.

 

In JO 1.02, it was similar. One mistake by you, letting your opponent hit you, could cost you the duel. You'd be so injured that it wouldn't take much to finish you off (talking NF here).

 

In JO 1.03, it takes so many hits to kill anyone, that you may make lots of mistakes, and your opponent may capitalize on them and hit you, but you can still live after many, many hits.

 

The result is that skill is rarely rewarded. You can score many hits against someone, but they do so little damage, that you often get no kill in return. This is especially true in FFA saber games, where you may hit someone over and over, only to have them retreat, jump into a large ball of sabers and get killed by someone else.

 

In conclusion: While the DFA move is no longer too powerful, and Light-Style is no longer too weak, the sabers overall are too weak.

[Dea]

I think they're just right for duel play. Don't forget that it isn't always a mistake you make, sometimes people lag.

 

I don't know about FFA, because that isn't something I like to play, but I'm happy with the sabers now for duelling

 

Same goes for the forces BTW

[blujay]

I haven't found lag to be much of a problem in Duel games myself.

 

Force Grip seems almost useless now. It's too easy to counter, because since you can't move as fast while gripping, the gripee can push or pull you almost immediately after you grip them.

 

Are there any FF saberists who actually use the Dark Side now?

[Cedrin]

I believe that the players liking the new saber combat are generaly inexperienced and not highly skilled at dueling. I have talked with several other highly skilled players and all tend lean towards blujay agrument.

 

Dea, do you have a conistant game play of say winning 6-8 times in a row on most games?

 

I *was* a very skilled player in the 1.02 version of the game often going on killing streaks till the map change.

 

Unfortunately that is no more. I still do very well but am severly handicaped with having to learn a totaly different combat style and having to basically fight a duel x2-3 times more due to the low damage.

 

If your wondering, Im not a DFA or red whore. Those players get killed in the first 15 seconds of my duels.

[blujay]

Yeah, Cedrin. I don't mean to brag, but I was quite good at 1.02. I often went undefeated until map changes on duel servers, using both medium and heavy.

 

I will say one thing about the new patch: you sure do get to admire the nice floor textures a lot more.

[AA-Tyrael]

no the patch is great and ur experienced friends are dfs newbies propably.JUST LIVE WITH IT MR.U WILL NO LONGER STRIKE AIR WITH UR RED STANCE TILL U LUCKILY HIT THEM.FIGTH AND DONT RUN like an *******.

[Cedrin]

AA-Tyrael, you make the point of my arugment. It appears that red saberist and DFA'ers got the best of you placing you in the lower bracket.

[TLG-Jaymz]

"Oh no! They've balanced the game! This means I can't go on 80+ frag raping sprees against people now!" or "Oh no! They've removed all the exploits that made my frag count astronomically high! Now I suck like everyone else!"

 

To be frank, that's what this whole argument sounds like to me. I mean... come on. DFA's that can swivel and instantly kill people who're within a bee's penis of it. Heavy strokes that are nigh on unblockable. Matches that are over within a second. You call THAT skill?

 

Before the patch, JKII was beginning to **** me to tears with the non-stop healers and heavy strokers. Dark Force users I can deal with, but those jokers? The only defense is to resort to their own dirty tactics, which isn't something I was prepared to do.

 

The whole argument sounds like Quake 1 vs Quake II to me. In Quake 1, you had the rocket launcher. You generally only had 1 rocket launcher per level which meant that if you weren't the person to own that part of the level, you had no chance in hell of winning.

 

Then came Quake II with the amazing notion of balanced weapons, meaning all the Q1 rocket whores suddenly discovered that it didn't matter if they whored a single weapon.. because almost any other weapon in the game can kill just as quick.

 

Their argument why Quake II sucked compared to Quake 1? "There's no skill!".

 

Think about it.. if it takes longer to kill someone, then it means you gotta work for your frag. Hence, it requires more skill, ne?

 

So, to rest my case.. I suggest those who're still whining about the lack of apparent skill in the new JKII patch should go the hell back to Quake 1, and THEN tell me what requires skill and what doesn't.

 

Oh, and while I'm on the subject.. WTF is it with this "n00b" stigma? Some guy will get 15 frags ahead of me by spamming me to death with DFA, and *I'm* the n00b? I'll bet you 10 bob that I was playing computer games when that little ****squirt couldn't go to the toilet without parental assistance.

[AA-Tyrael]

lol just to make sure u realize what a jerk u are mr cedrin i d like to know how many light stance is useless topics have u seen???

Yeah it did suck.Medium stance had the same speed to all but the spin.Now that changes !!!.

 

And btw THIS IS STAR WARS GAME did u hear me ? STAR WARS.based on the movies made by lucas arts.NOW TELL ME ONE OF THE MOVIES THAT HAD A JEDI DOING DFS ALL THE TIME.(unless they make cangooro jedi next)

 

Most of the *sigh* skilled red stancer used the extreme range of the red stance to just touch the opponent and suddently :| one hit kill.I suppose u also use heal right ? and i suppose everything is complaining cause they cant kill more with theyr lame strategy

 

Remember alt fire repeater ? well guess what !? the animation takes longer to complete u can fire again when the animation is fully complete takes ****load of ammo.Rocket luncher no more massive range.What do we have ?????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WEAPONS SUCK.SABERS can deflect energy weapons now everything is useless.Typical newbies that dont know that when a jedi is moving he has severaly reduced % chance to block it.

And typical newbie as u that complain just because ur cheap tricks dont work any more.

 

Oh and btw now the fights between the SKILLED players are spectacular now but i am sure u never experienced it..You just have to DFS to get the kills or pull kick.

[nabroc]

still to early to cast a final vote for me, cause I'm still trying to get used to the new saber combat.

I really like the 1.03 for the duels, but for any other type of game I can tell ya that DFA spamming will be replaced by forward lunge, backwards stab & backwards swing moves. I've seen this 1st yesterday and tried it myself on a team FFA server today, being on top of the list with another person, fighting the same stile using the blue stance almost exclusively (spamming forward lunge and backstab). Spamming anything shouldn't do it and I dislike playing that way. However the diff stances have their place in a duel game where you'll deal with a single oponent only, easier to counter exclusiv moves with no distraction from other players. But for mp putting any points into saber attack above medium stance is one huge waste of points - you can just spam back-orientated attacks into a pulk and aplying the "some poor soul will get hit" phenomenon , much better the running arround with the heavy stance leaving you widely open to others whenever an attack is launched. I didn't like the pre-patch DFA and I'm happy to see it being altered, but c'mon 8 force points for the red stance (+5 for medium), wheater you like the stance or not is bogus now ...

 

I'm not generally gainst the new saber system and upgrading medium + light stance actually suits me, but here's an idea - why not make all stances available regardless of saber attack level and increase dmg percentage wise if higher saber attack skills are being used OR make special moves available at certain SA levels (maybe include some new moves/combos).

[Swingin'Baws]

....but I read all these Patch comments with interest! I particularly love the way you all call each other 'newbies' or 'noobs' or just generally hurl insults. Its a right good read!

 

 

I downloaded the patch yesterday, but Im hangin off applying it until I really have to (i.e. When all servers upgrade). Seems like my tactics are shot to pieces though.

 

I am a gun whore - Pure & simple. I know the maps, and exactly where to get the big boys (Repeater and Flachette). I also know the location of all the relevant ammo. Too me, it sounds a bit extreme that the alt fire now uses up more than 3 times the original ammo! A full compliment of 300 units will now give me only 12 shots! Woah...... Whats the story?? Playing against a good player, on an open map, it may take all those 12 shots for a kill.

 

Couple this with the fact that the scarce ammo is SHARED between my two favourite guns means Im scuppered.

 

Never mind, lets move on. My next favourite is force grip - I love the NS Streets & Bespin levels. But whats this? Now I cant run while gripping??? Nothing gave me more pleasure than pouncing on an unsuspecting sabre-fool, and running him off a ledge before he could even turn around and face me.

 

Ahhhh, whats the point of this post you're all asking? Well, they've mucked up most of our current strategies - but so what. We can all adapt accordingly, and learn again. It should be fun actually, to see if I can still hold my own despite the gameplay modifications.

 

Ill still use grip, Ill just observe carefully the amount of force the guy has before I pounce and slowly escort him to the ledge. Likewise, Guns will still be my first option, Ill just have to take better aim before firing off shots, and ensure ammo is always topped up. You can bet your ass Ill still fire those wee balls into a crowd of sabre-fool!

 

Heck, maybe I might even learn to use the sabre now.......

 

See you all online sometime.

[Tarus]

Hear hear jaymz, well spoken. I think the new patch is great and I, for once, get to have a real saber fight rather then side stepping the heavy DFA over and over. Further the fights are now fast paced (like they should be) rather then two people swinging once a second and running around midswing.

 

If you all are complaining that your 'skill' is gone then perhaps you need more practice. Just because something changes and you start to lose doesn't mean the change sucks. Seems to me your just upset you have to relearn the combat (and you should pick it up quickly).

 

Tyrael, I would consider name calling a sign of being a noob quicker than I would someone questioning a patch. You basicly said nothing worthwhile to the topic of this post except, in your way, bragging that you can now get a frag. Why post at all?

(rhetorical question, dont' bother answering)

 

Swingin, I think its good that they reduced the output of some of the guns and made them less useable. I bought Jedi Knight for the saber combat...never really cared for quake (im more into the FPSs like action half-life that are more realistic...NOT counterstrike, uninstalled it the first day I looked at it Im sure it will hurt some people but I think its for the better.

[zenroth]

I dont lile it so far, I miss how medium use to work, I miss my spins Also what is with the super reduced damage and what seems like super increased blocking? Also is the medium finisher still in the game? If so I havent been able to do it since the patch.

 

Personally I think just a bit of balanceing on DFA and a few tweaks in general areas would have worked, they didnt need to screw with damage and style changes. Also now that it seems to take 10 hits to kill someone how do you fight gun users with a lightsaber? I mean it was kinda hard before if they always ran back but atleast 2-4 hits would normally kill them but now where gonna need 8 or 10 ?

[melin]

well i think the game SUCKS now..

[UsagiYojimbo]

Let me say this, I was getting tired of joining 32 player servers and seeing 30 players doing DFA as well as with the other popular tactics such as the aforementioned force heal and strong stance one hit kills. To me the game was turning into a Quake3 fragfest.

 

To those who hate the patch: patience! It's only been out a few days and for now everyone is going to feel like a total n00b. We will see in a few weeks just how well this patch really is.

[Dogma]

Originally posted by zenroth

Also is the medium finisher still in the game? If so I havent been able to do it since the patch.

its still there, but i also think it is difficult to do...well, i already thought that before the patch, so im not sure if its really harder to do it...

i only played once with the patch and so far, i am a bit torn...really good is that dfa is weaker now. its also ok that they made the sabers a bit weaker...but sometimes a duel lasts almost 10 minutes, and thats not really funny for the people waiting in the queu...also, i dont understand when i get through the defense of a sword (sometimes they block everything, sometimes i just get through the sabre...)

the borg will adapt...me too.

[leelink]

Originally posted by Cedrin

I believe that the players liking the new saber combat are generaly inexperienced and not highly skilled at dueling. I have talked with several other highly skilled players and all tend lean towards blujay agrument.

 

No one is highly skilled anymore. after watching a demo of the strong moves I can safely say that no one has mastered those in "combat" yet. Saber Dueling has changed so much that its now much more skill oriented. before it was just do the big swing and see if you could get your oppenent to run into it. Now we actually have combos that can be completed to do great damage and kill the oppenent if pulled off properly. I doubt none of the skilled players are even aware of all the combos. I not talking about just mashing the attack button either. they are complex key commands that have to be done in a certain order or way. Much better then just moveing right to left to do the big swing. although some of the moves still exist we do have access to more styled and skillful fighting. you guys just have to practice and give it a change. Kills are not as easy anymore and are going to require better tactics, so get used to thinking people. gone are the days of wildly spamming your saber at an oppenent.

[Sanjan]

I just fell in love with this new patch the moment I installed it! I fired up duel_training and had a little session with Lando. It must have been the most fun I have had with this game, ever!

 

The increased blocking is really good since it all looks much more flashy and impressive.

The new way of doing the moves is also great!

 

Seems like "DFA" is dead however. It's still great for chopping people lying on the ground tho.

 

Overall I think this is the best thing that could have happened to this game!

 

 

Master Sanjan

of The North Side

[SirDogmeat]

Ahhhh, whats the point of this post you're all asking? Well, they've mucked up most of our current strategies - but so what. We can all adapt accordingly, and learn again. It should be fun actually, to see if I can still hold my own despite the gameplay modifications.

 

Kudos to swingin... Your the first "gun whore" I've seen post about the patch and not cry like the a lot of the gun proponents I've seen in the forums. Now if only everyone would take heed....

[BrainStorm]

It seems that a lot of people are complaining that it takes too many hits for one jedi to kill another with a lightsabre. Well, this is a game based on Star Wars so...

 

Go back and watch the movies. How many times did you see one jedi kill another with one or two hits?

 

Even a padawan vs. an old man in a walking iron lung, had to take umpteen swings before either even landed a single hit.

 

Or... go back and watch 'duel of the fates', and tell me how many swings they had to make before anyone died.

[Darth Sun]

I agree with you Leelink.

Timing is so much more important now to connect the right moves into the right combo slashs making it a real skill to use these in actual combat.

 

Even though the demo I posted shows the combos, putting them into actual use during combat takes great skill wich can only be achieved with lots and lots of practice.

 

I used to be quite good in 1.02, I had a group of people wich I used to teach (you can call them my padawan learners if you like, hehe) and still teach them, but now Im also training and practicing to adapt to the new changes like them and Im finding it great because the game now is so much better this way since you need to use complete skill, instead of DFA spamming/one hit killing all over the place.

 

I do agree saber combat the way it is might not be the best option for FFA (light stance whores along with backstabbers in the middle of a confusion) but the way it is, saber combat is PERFECT for dueling and since I only do one on one duels, I find this patch awesome.

 

Darth Sun

Ichimoto Factory

[BrainStorm]

Ok, so I have too much free time, but I had to know...

 

The duel of the fates showed approximately 102 swings for the first part before Qui-Gon is struck down. (and this is not counting all the swings you could not see because of the camera angle.)

 

Then there are approximately 42 swings before Obi-Wan is able to take Darth Maul out.

[zenroth]

Thats alot of blocks but if you look most of them die when they get hit. I mean a lightsaber should generally kill in one hit if its a good hit. Now though its like block, dodge, repeat, hit, repeat,hit, and it goes on and on. I didnt have alot of time to play with the patch but I will later look over it more, so far though I miss my yellow stance.

[Blank1234]

game balance vrs starwars realism

 

"It seems that a lot of people are complaining that it takes too many hits for one jedi to kill another with a lightsabre. Well, this is a game based on Star Wars so... "

 

Last I checked, Obi wan wasn't glanced by mauls saber 2-3 times in "fast stance" and managed to heal instantly with a minature bacta tank.

 

I don't remember jedi using shield devices either....

 

and hey, what's with all the bowing crap? Vader took a swing at luke for "lowering his defenses" so why do I get vote-kicked when I take a swing at some saber-off monkey?

 

When's the last time you saw Mon Mothma chuck force lightning level 3 at Luke? I saw it yesterday in a duel game.

 

Why doesn't quigon wait for maul to attack, saber throw, then roll away 10+ times?

 

Since when do jedi's have a massive FFA only for some Weequay warrior to own them all with flak 2nd fire? I don't remember that part in the movie.

 

I think I made my point

 

Blank

[NeoKast]

The patch is great. I learn these game really quickly and I found that the king strategy pre-patch was the DFA spammage and heavy stance abuse. Playing this way and against this way is very boring in my opinion. I never liked resorting to the same tactics to win. I use all 3 stances to suprise my opponent with different skilled attacks, and since the patch I've had a 15/0 streak and very good scores overall. The duels are much more exciting and require a larger variety of tactics to win. I think yellow stance is better now, it has more control. If I want to spin so I have a higher chance for a hit, I use blue. Now, if only I can find a server with saber throw off. It's not as bad as DFA spammage, but it's being abused. With it, I can win most of my fights. Without it, a much more epic battle occurs when someone else who's skilled takes me on, with a lot of attacking and counter attacking and amazing blocks....I don't feel so bad when I lose now, that's the key part. Losing to DFA spammage or some dick who uses only red stance and spams geeky text messages about owning me blah blah...as well as calling me a noob....well, that's not fun at all..