What needs to be done to JK2

[WD_ToRMeNt]

- The sabers need to do more damage. That would speed up duals and give saberists more of a chance against gunners when up close. The saber really should do massive amounts of damage anyways.

 

- The ammo consumption needs to go back to the way it was in 1.02. CTF/TDM will remain pointless until this is fixed.

 

- There needs to be an option for the kick input. The player should be able to chose whether it requires a single or double jump.

 

- Heal needs to be set back to 1.02. Nerfed a LITTLE maybe, but not made useless the way it was in 1.03. Honestly, it was fine in 1.02.

 

- Drain. It did need a tweak, but it didn't need to be crippled. As of 1.03, it hurts the person using it more then the person it's being used on. That's rediculous. Let it take 2/3 - 3/4 of the drainers mana to completely drain the other player. Let it heal like 1 point or every 2-4% (of the max mana pool) drained.

 

- An option for chosing between 1.02 and 1.03 saber systems would be nice. Many good saberists say that 1.03 takes the skill facter out and makes it random, thus destroying gameplay regardless of how good it looks. I agree that it does take from gameplay. At least tone down the blocking.

[Galakgorr]

I agree with everything you just said, except for two things:

 

First, the ammo usage for guns in 1.3 is admittedly retarded, and cripples gun usage. But in 1.2 guns seemed a little overpowered... maybe changing the ammo consumption back to 1.2 and then slowing the firing rate for some larger weapons would help balance things out?

 

Second, I like the basis of the new saber combat system, but there is WAY too much blocking (blocking should be more active than passive; an AFK shouldn't be able to fend off heavy swings like he can in 1.3), and heavy damage has been made almost useless. The DFA tweak and the slowdowns during swings are fine, but with the incredible slowness of the heavy stance, there should be some DAMAGE involved. A happy medium between 1.2 and 1.3 would seem to me to solve most duelists' problems.

[TheDarkSide]

- The ammo consumption needs to go back to the way it was in 1.02. CTF/TDM will remain pointless until this is fixed.

 

 

Wrong. You don't need a new patch to fix this, what you need are CTF maps that are designed for competition, i.e. more ammo regens, etc. If I've read your other posts correctly, that is really what is holding you back.

 

I've raised this in other threads with nary a single response. How many UT CTF ladders use the original 4 maps that came with the game, how many Q3 CTF ladders use the original maps that came with the game? I suspect that they don't. They use primarily widely acclaimed user made maps that are much better than the original maps.

 

If your primary complaint is that there isn't enough ammo to alt-fire the repeater a sufficient number of times, that is easily remedied through new maps that are made with more ammo. Sure those maps need to be widely distributed, but you're telling me if a well-designed CTF map were released with enough ammo to make you happy again, it wouldn't spread through the "competitive" gaming community like wild-fire?

 

 

The points made by others about why more ammo is now necessary (flag cappers using absorb and speed) are valid ones, but in my mind, that's why JK2 CTF is inherently problematic. Much better, but not widely played is CTY. Essentially CTF but with the capper not allowed to use force powers. You can't use force powers on him per se, but speed and rage are your new best friends as a defender. Why hasn't the competitive JK2 gaming community jumped on CTY with both feet? It requires ALOT more teamwork to cap the flag.

 

One last point, you 'competitive' guys are acting like CTF has become unbalanced because you feel you can't defend your flag adequately. Well actually the game IS still balanced, since the other side has that restriction too! If your flag is now that much easier to cap, then theirs is too, and in fact tried and true strategies in CTF work even more effectively (like using your enemies ammo regens so he can't get to them, etc). You may claim that you don't like what CTF is in v1.03 , but you cannot say it is unbalanced. If one side had more ammo then the other, then you would have a legitimate gripe.

 

Just my opinion...no flames please, just civilized responses.

 

Thanks,

TDS

[[QGA]Vertigo]

Sure, the other side can get to your flag just as easily as you can get to theirs...

 

BUT... this results in a stalemate and (as with the duels) drags out the game TREMENDOUSLY. It purely results in a big ffa fight around the guy with the flag, trying to kill that guy and return your flag... Needless to say, due to the increased blocking of the saber and the ammo shortage of the guns, this takes ages ....

[WD_ToRMeNt]

About the saber damage, it should go something like this. I Based this on 100 health and 25 shields since that is what you spawn with.

 

Light 50 (3 hits to kill)

Med 75 (2 hits to kill)

Heavy 125 (1 hit to kill)

 

The saber should do massive damage. That will help make saber battles go faster. Saberists won't lose so many kills to gunners and gunner will learn not to mess with saberists at close range (or draw a saber if in a tight spot). Making the saber this powerfull will make room to put the ammo consumption of the weapons back to the way it was in 1.02. CTF and TDM won't be worth playing untill they do.

[WD_Rage]

Originally posted by TheDarkSide

 

 

Wrong. You don't need a new patch to fix this, what you need are CTF maps that are designed for competition, i.e. more ammo regens, etc. If I've read your other posts correctly, that is really what is holding you back.

 

I've raised this in other threads with nary a single response. How many UT CTF ladders use the original 4 maps that came with the game, how many Q3 CTF ladders use the original maps that came with the game? I suspect that they don't. They use primarily widely acclaimed user made maps that are much better than the original maps.

 

If your primary complaint is that there isn't enough ammo to alt-fire the repeater a sufficient number of times, that is easily remedied through new maps that are made with more ammo.

 

One last point, you 'competitive' guys are acting like CTF has become unbalanced because you feel you can't defend your flag adequately. Well actually the game IS still balanced, since the other side has that restriction too! If your flag is now that much easier to cap, then theirs is too, and in fact tried and true strategies in CTF work even more effectively (like using your enemies ammo regens so he can't get to them, etc). You may claim that you don't like what CTF is in v1.03 , but you cannot say it is unbalanced. If one side had more ammo then the other, then you would have a legitimate gripe.

 

Just my opinion...no flames please, just civilized responses.

 

Thanks,

TDS

 

Actually, TDS, our main problem isn't the lack of ammo. Yes, adding ammo sounds like a good idea, however, it does not solve any problem.

 

1. CTF in 1.02 was a rather fast paced game type. Adding more ammo will just slow it down due to the waiting of respawned ammo.

 

2. No matter how much ammo is added, we are still VERY limited to the amount of shots we have.

 

3. Roving around for ammo through a whole game is entirely no fun. I'm like a saberist, I want to have fun with this game. Hell, if I don't have fun then I wasted $60.

 

Yes, 12 shots limit's spam, but SPAM IS NEEDED IN EVERY GAME. Certain strategies require spam. Attacking the enemey base, clearing the flag for a clean grab, covering the flag carrier: These three things (and other instances) require spam. Look at any decent CTF game: UT requires it, Tribes 2 requires it, even JK1 required it. Cutting down the amount of shots does nothing. How can we do the above three things with anything other than a heavy weapon (in most cases it's the HR). A ST rifle is pointless, the crossbow is weak, the primary fire on the HR is weak. I've seen many people say to get better aim. Honestly, the majority of the serious CTF teams have excellent aim, and we also know when to take that precise aim and use it and when to spam.

 

As for the maps, it is up for the leagues to decide which maps to use. Currently, there are very little (perhaps none) user-made CTF maps. It sounds like an excellent idea to make our own, however, that takes talent in that area which is one talent I do not possess.

 

Perhaps a better phrase to use is: The Game is Not Fun and Unfit for Competitive Play (instead of unbalanced). Again, see my above for why it's not fun and unfit for competitive play.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Ugh. I've been playing 1.03 CTF for the past few days and it's pointless. I litteraly spent more time hunting for ammo then I did actually playing. With so little ammo capacity, I could barely defend my myself, let alone my flag. The saber battles take way to long to even consider using sabers in a CTF game.

 

I used to be able to cap then turn right around and help fight off the chasers who had followed me into my base. 1.03 just doesn't give me enough ammo.

 

Raven, CTF/TDM was fun before but now it's just not worth it. You have no idea what you've done to the competative community. There are fewer people playing JK2, just check out the gamespy stats.

 

If your goal was to ruin a good game you've succeded.

[Zodiac]

Like I said before: Just keep the gunners and saberists apart! Separate them! Just look at how it used to be and how it is now.

 

Prepatch saberists used to complain about the power of those guns.

Postpatch the gunners are now complaining and even stopped playing JK2, cuz the guns are too weak.

 

And in the next patch, when guns'll hopefully'll be made stronger again, the saberists will complain about how powerful the guns are again!!

 

See, there is NO way to balance guns with saberists, with ALL the parties being content.

 

Just separate the two worlds! Gunwhores and Gayberists, it's always been like that. They can't play with eachother, but they can coexist next to eachother. It's like releasing a pac of wolves in the middle of 100 sheep, and hoping for them to get a long peacefully.

 

Keeping them apart would make life so much easier. Just focus on making the guns more fun for the people who use them: The gunners, without even having to think about the saberist's opinion. And that goes the same way for Sabers, you can just concentrate on making them more fun for the people who use them, without having to think what those gunners may think of it.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Good idea, but the saberists seem to be to retarded to join a saber only/dual server.

 

I have many people join the WD server, which is always guns enabled, and bitch about the guns. Well duh, they can go find another game.

[oToRP]

Originally posted by Zodiac

Like I said before: Just keep the gunners and saberists apart! Separate them! Just look at how it used to be and how it is now.

 

Prepatch saberists used to complain about the power of those guns.

Postpatch the gunners are now complaining and even stopped playing JK2, cuz the guns are too weak.

 

And in the next patch, when guns'll hopefully'll be made stronger again, the saberists will complain about how powerful the guns are again!!

 

See, there is NO way to balance guns with saberists, with ALL the parties being content.

 

Just separate the two worlds! Gunwhores and Gayberists, it's always been like that. They can't play with eachother, but they can coexist next to eachother. It's like releasing a pac of wolves in the middle of 100 sheep, and hoping for them to get a long peacefully.

 

Keeping them apart would make life so much easier. Just focus on making the guns more fun for the people who use them: The gunners, without even having to think about the saberist's opinion. And that goes the same way for Sabers, you can just concentrate on making them more fun for the people who use them, without having to think what those gunners may think of it.

 

Yeah, it's so easy and obvious..It just doesn't work. Where is the common sense.

[Nathan Wind]

wow, they come out at night to spout their ignorance.

 

thedarkside is blatently advocating stealing. a patch that is really a mod is bait and switch. the fact the new levels must be added to fix the imbalance is flat out celebrating bait and switch. thats crooked.

 

guns were fine. there needed to be an equilibrium set in the force powers though. there is no such line between sabers and guns. i reiterate; there is no such thing as guns vs. sabers.

[AssKicker]

some of you ppl are retarded ... What good is extra ammo on maps if you can only hold a limited amount... it doesnt change the fact that the game turns into hide and seek with ammo ... regardless of how much ammo is on the map... u can only carry so much . DUH

[bedwyr]

I think the game was just fine before the patch. Some people like to use guns some people like to use sabers. I like to use both. There are times that each one has it advantages. Mostly I like to run around with a saber. A good saberist will have no problem (most of the time) dealing with a gunner in a fight. Likewise a good gunner can handle most saberist. If a gunner is complaining about saberist killing him all the time then he needs to work on his own saber skills and use them when they are needed. If a saberist is complaing about gunners alway kicking his ass then he needs to work on his gun skills when they are needed. There are so many facets to this MP game and that is what made it good. There was a defense for everything before. When ever you see everyone doing the same thing to win then the game is unbalanced. You should be able to kill using any tactic. In 1.02 I saw everyone doing something different and they were having fun(for the most part).

 

Grip feels like a first level force power now. I have no Idea why that was *tweaked*. What some people just were not able to combat it? I use grip alot. It works on some people and one some people there is no point.

 

Like I said there is a defense and counter for everyting in 1.02. I am just so upset that so many servers decided to impliment the 1.03 *mod*.

 

I think that if the game was released the way it is in 1.03 the reviews would not have been as good and would have done alot worse. Now I got a game that was cool but now want to return.

[MrCrusher]

Like I said there is a defense and counter for everyting in 1.02. I am just so upset that so many servers decided to impliment the 1.03 *mod*.

 

This should indicate something...........

 

 

If you like 1.02 then play 1.02 but soon you will have very few places to play.

[Zodiac]

"A good saberist will have no problem (most of the time) dealing with a gunner in a fight"

 

pre-patch: not true, just look at all the complaints by the saberists on this forum, before the patch was released. They were all very upset they'd never beat a gunner in a 1vs1 situation. Why do you think Raven nerfed those guns anyways lol.

 

post-patch: true, but that's just because the gunners have been "weakened" by several changes in the patch. It is balanced in the way that saberists can now hold it's own against a gunner, but gunning isn't much fun anymore, so most JK2 gunners are leaving JK2.

[bedwyr]

Originally posted by Zodiac

"A good saberist will have no problem (most of the time) dealing with a gunner in a fight"

 

pre-patch: not true, just look at all the complaints by the saberists on this forum, before the patch was released. They were all very upset they'd never beat a gunner in a 1vs1 situation. Why do you think Raven nerfed those guns anyways lol.

 

post-patch: true, but that's just because the gunners have been "weakened" by several changes in the patch. It is balanced in the way that saberists can now hold it's own against a gunner, but gunning isn't much fun anymore, so most JK2 gunners are leaving JK2.

 

There is always going to be people that whine. In most of the games that I have played the person that owned the map was a *saberist*, Unless it was an FFA game. When used right the saber is a very effective weapon.

[bedwyr]

Originally posted by MrCrusher

 

This should indicate something...........

 

 

If you like 1.02 then play 1.02 but soon you will have very few places to play.

 

It was always hard for me to find a server with good pings but there is not much difference. The more time that goes by since 1.03 was released the more servers I see running 1.02. Everybody just says "ohh a patch is out I better update my server". Now that people are finding out that they were happier before they are asking "gee, what is the best way to un *mod* my server"

 

!The fact that lots o people refuse to *mod* thier servers at all should tell YOU something.!

[Nathan Wind]

i could always beat gunners with my saber before...

 

goodbye clans and elites. see you next game

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Bleh.

 

Sabers block 100% of every direct fire weapon in like a 240 degree arc. That leaves only rockets, alt repeater, and alt fc1. Those are slow, with a limited amount of ammo, and are easily pushed.

 

Guns were over nerfed in 1.03. They were fine before actually. People complained because they didnt realize they were in a game, not a movie and didn't take the time to learn it. The direct fire damage was uped but that's moot since saber blocks 100% of that.

 

As I said before, the ammo consumption needs to go back to 1.02, and the saber damage needs to be roughly doubled. This would fix CTF/TDM, and it would make the saber more usefull in games with guns. Saber battles woud go faster and there would be less of a chance to be blasted by a gunner.

 

Also, if the primary saber attacks did more damage, there would be far fewer "ass fighters." I'm a gunner, but today I used a saber. I used a lot of backswing/backstab because the normal attacks took forever to kill. Overall it was pointless.

 

When I did saber in FFA it was kinda pointless, just people running around swinging randomly, others trying to back into groups of saberfighting enemies. 1.03 might looks better, but 1.02 was far superior in gameplay.

 

Increase the saber damage by as much as x2.

 

Return ammo consumption to 1.02.

 

Un-nerf drain and heal.

 

Oh yeah, cut down on the blocking to.

 

Else, Jk2 continues to slide.

[Lucky]

Torment i proposed exactly that in Al's thread over in the main forum.

 

I'd like to seperate the 2 tho, a saberist swinging at a saberist should do a different amount of damage than a saberist swinging at a gunner. Actually, i proposed exactly the same setup you did, for the same reasons. 3 for light, 2 for medium and 1 for heavy vrs anyone not holding a saber.

 

If you ARE swinging at someone holding a saber a different amount of damage needs to be done. I'm not a hardcore saberist so im not going to suggest an amount, but it should definitely be different than the amount of damage done against someone holding a gun.

 

I agree with most of rage's points, and kickers as well. You need a weapon that can clear multiple people away from somthing. I wouldn't mind the current ammo constraints if all the guns did considerably more damage.

 

So far, it looks like the only reason they nerfed the guns was to make up for the new saber combat system. Tweaking that system to allow you to kill someone not holding a saber in a hurry would definitely speed up the game for both parties. Could then un nerf the guns and make whatever tweaks saber vrs saber combat needs and we're off and running again.

 

Everything else needs more tweaking too, from the sounds of it, but that alone would make CTF entirely playable again, definitely end all the stand offs.

 

 

Lucky

[Nathan Wind]

1 changes would make the game balanced in .02 (but probably not in the eyes of anyone who is less then great)

 

Make saber throw more powerful with a less activation cost and increase damage, while possibly keeping/increasing the in-flight cost.

 

If this could hurt drainers, this would be a balanced game without the nerfing of guns or force powers. i could always beat a gunner with my saber before, and now those anti-gunner tacticts are uberfied in .03. (those tactics being pull and swipe on the ground)

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

1 changes would make the game balanced in .02 (but probably not in the eyes of anyone who is less then great)

 

Make saber throw more powerful with a less activation cost and increase damage, while possibly keeping/increasing the in-flight cost.

 

If this could hurt drainers, this would be a balanced game without the nerfing of guns or force powers. i could always beat a gunner with my saber before, and now those anti-gunner tacticts are uberfied in .03. (those tactics being pull and swipe on the ground)

 

You're forgetting the NF players. Just 1 change is not enough.

[Nathan Wind]

nf people are playing a gunning only game no?

 

either that or they are playing a nf sabers game, in which case, i argue that it is balanced. the only main problem was dfa, and that was easily beaten.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

There is one more thing that needs to be done to JK2 gameplay; Pulling/pushing items in MP.

 

In JK1, pulling items was a major part of the game. JK1 FF was extremely fast and complex and a large part of this was item control. I pulled all the health, force boosts, and whatever if I needed it or not. It also made me faster since I could control more items better by pulling them from a distance rather then running over them. Timing shield and surges was also central to the game, and pull was important for item timing (items respawned faster if you pulled them). All games have item control, but JK1 pull brought it to a new level of complexity and importance.

 

Adding the pulling (and perhaps pushing) to items in JK2 MP would add another dimension to gameplay. It would further seperate JK2 from quake and make it more like JK1.

 

Another advantage would be for the saberists. If they were smart, they' d make sure to pull/push all the ammo and guns so the gunners couldn't get them.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

BTW, this would fix the backswing/backstab spamming...

 

***

 

People are complaining about people over using backswing/backstab. Well, the knock down + backswing/backstab combo is about the ONLY thing I do. Why? Because the saber is nerfed so bad that the backswing is the only move worth using. The standard damage isn't good, and the blocking makes sabering take forever. It's a waste of time to use saber (expect with the knockdown + backswing combo) in CTF, FFA, or TDM.

 

I don't use it because I like it, I use it because it works. Now, if you would up the damage of the saber's normal attack to something along the lines of...

 

Red 100

Yellow 75

Blue 50

 

... then there would actually be a reason to use the normal saber swings and not the backstab/swing. This would make saber fights in guns enabled servers go faster so saberists wouldn't be such easy targets for gunners.

 

PS tone down the blocking also.