Obi-Wan's Graphics

[Padawan1587246512]

My First Impressions of Obi-Wan's Graphics aren't that good. If this title is going to meet standards of other 1st person titles (Quake 3 Arena, Unreal Tournament)it's graphics must be more improved. If there is another screenshot of another location besides Theed then my mind might change.

 

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Padawan

[deadwood]

Whatever...

[Guest solo_anakin]

I screen shot from the beta cant speak for the entire game. We wont know <U>exactly</u> how good they are until it is realeased.

[Guest Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I totally agree that Obi-Wan graphics need some improvement. Though they already look pretty good, they should have added textures for AGP systems (especially with AGP 4X being out!), support Hardware Transform & Lighting, and texture compression.

 

They should also ship with a level editor, like every other decent game out there, or I'm not going to waste my money on this.

 

-UkeNuke www.monolith3d.com

 

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The Darkside? I've been there. Do your worst.

 

[ZeroAi1587246527]

I agree one hundred percent on the level editor! Look at Half Life coming with WorldCraft 2.0 (beta and no tech support). We all know they use some kind of level editor (like leia) to make it so putting it on the CD doesn't cost anymore?

 

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There is Zero Ai

[Guest Grizzly]

As far as I can tell, Obi-Wan will look at least as good as Unreal Tournament, so no problems there. But why the insistence on a level editor? Does a game really suffer because you can't tweak it to death? I don't know what you people would've done ten years ago - virtually none of the games out then had a level editor, and people didn't rage in protest.

[Guest Conor]

It would look like UT if UT was full of pixels and low-polygon models. I'm not sure what you mean.

 

Also, editing is now the standard for most games, so a new FPS coming out without an editor could be viewed as sub-standard.

 

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"There cannot be any 'story' without a fall - all stories are ultimately about the fall - at least not for human minds as we know them and have them."

-J.R.R. Tolkien

[Guest Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Level editors expand the game's life and replayability. How many people would be playing JK still, if it hadn't been editable? I know I wouldn't!

 

-UkeNuke www.monolith3d.com

 

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The Darkside? I've been there. Do your worst.

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

I had a great long post, but it got deleted. Grrr! Here's the essence of my statement.

 

Also, editing is now the standard for most games

 

Not true, sorry. Most games are not editable in this way. Many great selling games are not editable (in fact the majority), and many editable games have not done well (some have, but not all as if it were the standard).

 

Maybe FPS fans have come to expect editors for the favorites, but this is not the case with most, or all games. We aren't talking about video games as if they were legos, requiring that they be edited to be fun.

 

From a game company standpoint, free editing really does nothing except increase the long term satisfaction of those who already love the game they bought. Of course a small percentage of those who get the game, and like it, even attempt editing, so it's not the deciding factor for most people. Many games that have editing have not done well (many have, but not because of editing). Also many games that lacked editing have still done very well. Just because there is no editer packaged with the game does not mean that commercial addons and engine liscensing will not occur. It also does not mean that a dedicated community cannot come up with editing on their own.

 

I think alot of people here are assuming that if Obiwan does not come packaged with a user-friendly editor, or unless LEC releases the scripting code on the 'net in a timely fashion, then they will not get Obiwan, and the game will be a failure. This is faulty reasoning, as it assumes that the only reason people buy games is for editing, and that the fact that editing is not present will prevent most people from buying the game (most people aren't fazed by this prospect apparently). If you can't convince me that editing is required for a game to be successful, how can you convince the game companies?

 

In short, if ObiWan includes editing, great, if not, fine. I'll judge the game on its play value first and foremost. If the game sucks, I'm not going to care about editing it. If it rules, but has no editing, that's fine too. It's not as if I have to edit it to enjoy it. I certainly hope ObiWan has editing, but that won't stop me from getting it if it's good, and I figure most people won't care anyway.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 11, 2000).]

[Wilhuf]

I'm tired of these excuses for LEC not to include quality features in its games. Especially when they arent rooted in fact, or at best ignore significant relevant facts.

 

Editing would be a terrific feature that would add great longevity to the enjoyment of Obi-Wan. An editor would be a tool and venue of creativity for community members.

 

Review the facts.

 

Quake 2 far outsold Jedi Knight. Quake2 has far more participants online than JK ever did. I would wager there are still more Q2 players online now than there are JKers. And I am positive Q2 is still selling more copies per month than JK. Go check www.pcdata.com as a reference. I'm sure there are other pc game sales sites available that will verify this.

 

The ability to edit levels in a professional quality editor (along with dedicated server support) has in fact made a direct impact on the volume and longevity of BEST selling games. Half Life now boasts more multiplayer servers online than any other multiplayer game. Half Life has sold extremely well and is feature rich. It includes dedicated server support and 'WorldCraft' a professional quality map editor.

 

'GreenMarine' of Epic games has stated that there are more CounterStrike (a user-made modification for Half Life) servers online than there are Quake3 servers. Counterstrike would not exist without WorldCraft.

 

Game companies dont need convincing that an editor helps sales. Even if the absence of an editor doesn't harm sales, its presence will help. Game sales have proven the theory. Moreover, the depth and longevity of online user communities are directly enhanced by the availablity of editing tools.

 

If you want to design a game purely for the purpose of sales, then you should be asking Steven Shaw for another Deer Hunter, an $11 piece of tripe which happened to have sold *extremely* well.

 

Wilhuf

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 11, 2000).]

[Guest FishBone the Hutt]

I think you are fotgetting something . LEC games storger side is on the plot . the graphics doesn't have to brake the standerts . if you can recall ,quake and jedi knight came out at about the same time . quake had better graphics , yet allot of us are here thanks to jedi knight , not quake (same thing about duke3d and quake)

[Guest FishBone the Hutt]

I think you are forgetting something . LEC games storger side is on the plot . the graphics doesn't have to brake the standerts . if you can recall ,quake and jedi knight came out at about the same time . quake had better graphics , yet allot of us are here thanks to jedi knight , not quake (same thing about duke3d and quake)

[Wilhuf]

I agree that LEC games by and large have the best plots money can buy. For single player.

 

Multiplayer is a different story however. Cooperative play wasn't included in Jedi Knight/MotS. The multiplayer modes in JK/MotS (Deathmatch, Team Deathmatch, Capture the Flag, and Kill the Fool with the Ysalmiri) really don't qualify as 'plot.' A pity really.

 

Speaking for myself, I am here because I enjoy the single player but especially the multiplayer experience of JK/MotS.

 

Wouldn't it be great to be able to complete the 'single player' adventure of Obi-Wan with your online friends alongside? To share LEC's plots online in cooperative mode?

 

Daily Radar reports that Force Commander will have coop play against AI btw, but I think its more a skirmish mode kind of deal, rather than full blown coop adventure play.

 

What irritates me is how tight-lipped LEC is about its game features. LEC enthusiasts are forced to rely on third party reports and rumors for information. Their aloof approach prevents the user community from providing any meaningful input during the actual game development cycle.

 

Wilhuf

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 11, 2000).]

[Guest Heidi Clogs]

The graphics in q3 may look nice but the game was rather pathetic. I still love jk because of 2 things: the story and the ability to edit it. Good Graphics don't make up a game by themselves.

 

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Now you will feel the power of my clogs!

[Guest Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Half-Life had a very good single player game, great MP game, AND great level editor. Throughout the development of the game, people doing total conversions for HL could actually talk with the people making the game, give input, and receive answers. This helped make HL a great game, and it still has a LARGE following.

 

-UkeNuke www.monolith3d.com

 

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The Darkside? I've been there. Do your worst.

 

[Guest Neumi]

Q3 graphics are not standard.

At the moment the engine is the most emproved.

If it is called "standard", then what would be better?

 

I don't want a game with perfect graphics, editable levels and MP support or dedicated servers.

I want a game with GOOD graphics, storyline (I think we all know the plot of OB1), gameplay, sound and level design are much more important.

 

It's true: the graphics of OB1 are not the best ever seen, but why should they be? Because it's Star Wars?

NO Star Wars game (except the original X-Wing) had the best graphics when it came out. But most of them are very good games.

[Guest Grand Admiral Thrawn]

You may not want a game with good graphics, editability, and MP support, but I DO! Yes, I completely agree that level design, gameplay, and storyline are the most important aspects of a game, but why can't we have it all? Games cost a lot of money ($50 a pop that could be spent on something else ) and I think that we, as the customers, should get what we want. Half-Life had it all, and that's why it's still one of the most popular, if not THE most popular game around. I don't care how long I have to wait until Obi-Wan comes out. I just want it to be the best that it can be.

 

-UkeNuke www.monolith3d.com

 

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The Darkside? I've been there. Do your worst.

 

[Guest Grizzly]

Frankly, editing isn't really important to me. I'm interested in what I get out of the box, usually - I tend not to play with add-ons, unless they're extremely well done (as with Counterstrike or They Hunger for HL). I think the average consumer would agree; it's what you pay for that's important, not what may or may not be available in the future.

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

I'd wager that editing does not directly affect game sales.

 

Half Life now boasts more multiplayer servers online than any other multiplayer game.

 

This is incorrect. You ever check on Battle.net? TONS of people are playing Starcraft, Warcraft2, and Diablo on there, more than any FPS. Also, Age of Empires and AOE2 have tons more. And don't forget those RPG's.. Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest.

 

Half Life and the rest look pretty puny compared to the communities of those games, and do they have editing? Well SC and WC do, not sure about the rest. People put too much stock in the "editing" thing.

 

There are a combination of factors that made Quake2 a big seller:

 

the ID company name (the guys who made the megahit Doom, Doom2, and Quake!)

 

long term support (tons of upgrades, not just bug fixes, but improvements to the engine over long periods of time)

 

dedicated servers (at a time when this was a rare feature.. of course much of this was done because lag was so bad.. but still)

 

editing, at a time when relatively few FPS games had editing (supported by the company)

 

massive marketing

 

Those factors combined made it a hit. Obviously there were better games out there, and more innovative ones at that. But in the FPS department, it sold alot. Same goes for Quake2. The people who were into Quake went straight to Quake2. Plus all the editing stuff converted over quickly to the other game, and they just rehashed the same formula and strategy, and it worked.

 

Half Life has the "uses Quake2 engine" plug in there too. It's a good game, on top of that (good reviews).

 

Bottom line: I could care less if ObiWan sells well, or if JK sold as much as some other game. Sales alone don't dictate how good a game is. Honestly. Editing doesn't determine it either. Play value (read: fun factor) is the value of a game. I don't get a game just so I can "fit in" with the other people who bought the game, and I don't buy a game so I can hack it. I buy it to play it. I think most people buy games for that same reason. Just some of us have gotten to gossiping on the 'net and we assume that because we're into editing, everybody else is, and that's where it's it (that's only a drop in the bucket).

 

I'm not going to go postal if editing doesn't come packaged with ObiWan, and neither should anybody else. It's unrealistic, and short-sighted.

 

Btw, JK came out some time after Quake (in fact an entire year if I'm not mistaken). If JK had come out the first day it was promised, it would have been pretty close, but it was delayed 9 months. JK had much better graphics when it came out than Quake.

 

Quake was SOFTWARE for crying out loud! Ever look at those weapons? Big polygon blobs.. hardly any detail at all. Plus the graphics were dark and muddy, mostly browns. The models and animations were pretty simplistic in Quake compared to JK. JK's are alot better, even after GL Quake. Quake2's on the other hand are arguably better (more polygons, dynamic colored lighting, etc). JK still had some better animations, and some nicer textures in places.

 

Point is, when JK came out, it really was superior to everything out there, except:

 

-no dedicated servers

and

-smaller community (because Quake was already well established)

 

I think in many ways, it is still superior to a majority of FPS games out there (there are a few that are better in most aspects). It's still a good solid game though, and has some unique features not found anywhere else (and the major gaming mags agree with me on this).

 

Some folks seem to be insisting that ObiWan won't sell well if it lacks editing. I don't think you should place any bets on this, really.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 14, 2000).]

[Wilhuf]

I really should have qualified my statement about Half Life. It is the most successful 'First Person Shooter' multiplayer game in existence, judging by copies sold, presence of servers and number of onine players. No other FPS has the presence or sales.

 

We really should be comparing first person shooters, rather than bringing in RTS games, although it is interesting. (BTW, as was stated earlier, it is precisely the presence of editors in games such as StarCraft that have helped them thrive.)

 

Q2 had a more developed graphics engine than JK and it was released a mere three months after Jedi Knight. Without question however, JK had more innovative gameplay, especially with the Force abilities.

 

LEC themselves have recognized the need for dedicated servers. Interesting article on the topic at http://www.gamasutra.com/features/19990903/lincroft_01.htm

The article indicates that LEC lawyers wouldnt allow the use of DS in XVT for license protection reasons, although the programmers were in favor of the architecture.

 

Editors *do* in fact enhance the longevity of multiplayer games. Yes a minority of endusers actually develop levels, but their work keeps the community alive. The fact that they are in the minority in no way diminishes the value of the editor of course.

 

I'd wager the majority of JK players don't even play online. Most probaby went through a few levels of the single player campaign and stopped. Should we drop multiplay from Obi-Wan as a consequence? By all means no!

 

We need to make sure LEC is not simply milking the Star Wars license in its games, rather than providing high quality games that meet a standard worthy of the Star Wars license. Today, a rehash of Jedi Knight/MotS, anemic in features, will not fit the bill.

 

Please! Stop apologizing for LEC, and giving them ill-conceived reasons not to include features such as DS and editors. Unrealistic and short-sighted apologists for LEC wont make it easier for us to see to it that Obi-Wan delivers. The reality is there *is* a fan base that wants such features.

 

Wilhuf

 

p.s. short of conducting a survey on what features in a given FPS influenced consumers to buy games, all we can really do is speculate on what makes a game sell well. It would be very interesting to see what a survey would produce in terms of the factors that influence a person to purchase a game. Perhaps such survey results exist online? http://www.pcdata.com seems to suggest that game pricing is a primary factor in terms of sales. (e.g. success of low cost games such as 'Who Wants to Be A Millionaire' and 'Deer Hunter').

 

Of course as LEC enthusiasts we can still discuss what we think would be desireable features in Obi-Wan. LEC will have to determine whether the cost of implementing such features (if LEC is even aware of what the fan base wants) is justified.

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 14, 2000).]

[Guest Neumi]

You can't tell me the majority of players playd some SP levels and changed then to MP.

 

If it is so, than most of this players didn't buy the game and got the version without cut scenes and music.

 

I played JK online exactly 7 times and I know a lot of other players finishing the SP mode at least 5 times.

 

The SP mode is what makes JK.

 

MP games are easy to create. I don't know any game wich sucks if I play it with others.

 

but creating a SP game is much more difficult.

 

I don't want another Unreal Tournament or Q3, in SP mode UT is okay, but Q3 really sucks.

 

I first want a good SP game, if it offers MP: fine.

If not it's okay too. I relly don't need it.

 

 

I play only games with a story line (except UT, but I ditn't tuch it since more than a month), and no MP game offers one, if not the storyline from the SP mode as coop mode.

[Wilhuf]

You need to read what I wrote a bit more carefully.

 

I said most players probably played some single player JK and didnt really spend much if any time at all in multiplayer.

 

However, I also said that this was no reason that LEC should skimp on its support for multiplayer features such as a dedicated server.

 

To say there are no games with both strong multiplayer and single player features isn't really correct. Half-Life, mentioned earlier, was pretty successful at developing an in-depth single player campaign and also boasted strong multiplayer support. Half-Life did extremely well in sales and can currently claim the largest base of fans of any first person shooter game. (Although the quakeX series in total probably has more fans).

 

Wilhuf

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 15, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Oops, in my last post, I made a typo.

 

I meant to say those were the things that made QUAKE 1 a big seller AND Quake2, not just quake2. Obviously when Quake2 came out, more games were starting to have Dedicated servers, but when Quake came out, virtually none did (if even one did).

 

Quake was unique when it came out because (I'm almost positive) it was the first FPS to have all true 3d objects. While Dark Forces had true 3d rotating objects, it was still mostly sprite based.

 

However, alot of features and things that were far above Quake came out before or at the same time. Quake was a software mode game, and you couldn't crouch. There was virtually no plot, and it was really buggy. However over time enhancements were released, and a dedicated community emerged (including editing). I think alot of it was as a result of an already loyal community from the Doom series. However, apparently alot of folks who liked Doom didn't like Quake (which suprised me, I thought I was the only one who felt that way!). Quake2 was a much better game than Quake, but never reached the huge dedicated playing and editing community of its predecessor (or at least hasn't yet).

 

Half Life is great, but its not the greatest FPS I've ever played. It's certainly more fun and challenging for me than the Quake games though.

 

Kurgan

[Guest Neumi]

Sorry, Wilhuf.

It seems I misunderstood something.

 

 

Ok, so HL has a good SP mode.

But the MP mode as in any other game has no background. Sure, you can play different roles and so, but that's not what I hope for.

To be true, I played HL for a while, than I putted it back where it came from (gave it back to my friend I borrowed it from).

There are very good ideas in the game, but they are not well developed. The best thing was, when the special forces arrived.

But that moment was over soon. Than the game returned to standard.

And it uses that damned Q2 engine - I begin to hate this engine. All the games based on it look the same. Every object looks like it was made of plastic.

The sounds in HL are okay, but the quality of spoken text really sucks.

I played the MP mode only for a short time, but what I saw was not what I hoped for (hearing all this halleluja's about it in several tests and message boards).

After all, even Star Siege Tribes is more interesting (in MP), even if it lacks on the tecnical side.

A good MP mode must be very simple (Quake 1) or very complicated, HL is something in between. Let's see how TF2 will be.

 

I really don't care IF there is MP support, but if it is, I first want a coop mode.

[Wilhuf]

Well I and many others *do* care a lot about whether Obi-Wan has multiplayer support, and the depth of features it presents.

 

(I guess I've veered off topic a bit into the realm of multiplayer, rather than graphics. It amazes me that there is even speculation as to whether or not LEC will include multiplay. Really, LEC should be at the point where they are supporting coop and DS. Other successful games have been supporting these features for some time. Fans are starting to doubt whether LEC can even handle multiplay...)

 

Anyway, Half-Life was an immersive single player experience. The Team Fortress Classic multiplayer game it offers is a reasonably complex team based game to provide some good entertainment online. Was HL the greatest single player experience? Well many PC gaming magazines think so. Others magazines have said that Jedi Knight was the best. It's up to the individual to make that choice. Personally I still lean toward Jedi Knight as THE single player experience.

 

I played through the entire single player campaign twice (once for lightside, once for darksdie). I'm sure many of you will laugh, saying 'oh you only played it twice?!' I can't say I'd play through HL single player twice, though. LEC have demonstrated that they can make single player FPS games that DELIVER. DF1, DF2 and Outlaws are all great examples.

 

Half Life has shown us that there are game developers who can deliver both outstanding single player and multiplayer experiences, and can enjoy brisk sales as a benefit of their labor.

 

I guess I'm being greedy. I'm hoping LEC will make the next 'Half-Life Killer.' (Remember how it used to be a rush to be the next quake-killer? I suppose it still is to an extent.) I'm kind of assuming that Obi-Wan will have an outstanding single player experience, given LEC's track record. But I'm hoping LEC can improve their track record and publish a multiplayer Obi-Wan that delivers.

 

And yes I think those recently released Obi-Wan shots show some graphics that are sub-par with other current successful FPS games (UT and Q3 by comparison). The graphic design is terrific, however. It's interesting how JK's graphic design simply blew away anything Id produced, although the JK cg engine really was subpar with Id's work (with the exception of exteriors, where LEC really shines).

 

Oh btw, Justin Chin, creator of JK is developing an FPS game using the UT engine. Check out info on New Legends on the Adrenaline Vault at http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=1281999-11052

 

Wilhuf