Obi-Wan's Graphics

[Guest Grand Admiral Thrawn]

To find out more about New Legends, visit Justin's site at www.infinite-machine.com.

 

-UkeNuke www.monolith3d.com

 

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The Darkside? I've been there. Do your worst.

 

[Guest Neumi]

Wilhuf:

Funny, most pc game magazines said the exterior levels where the worst of JK.

 

Hmmm ...

 

 

[Guest Conor]

I'd certainly disagree with that. Every level rocked, including every outdoor one. They probably just got vertigo.

 

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"There cannot be any 'story' without a fall - all stories are ultimately about the fall - at least not for human minds as we know them and have them."

-J.R.R. Tolkien

[Wilhuf]

Funny, I've seen dozens of game reviews of JK and Quake2. *All* of them said JK's exteriors engine graphic support was superior to anything Id could come up with.

 

Hmm...

 

It makes no difference either way since neither the Jedi Knight nor Id's engines are being used in Obi-Wan.

 

Wilhuf

 

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 19, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Most reviews of JK I read said, that JK was great, better than anything that had come out before. The only minor complaints I saw were that some of the models tended to be a bit "blocky" compared to games released about the same time.

 

They really had nothing bad to say about JK! Of course the main complaint we have today, that there are no dedicated servers, etc was not covered by most reviews. Most of them said: JK's SP is superb, the best yet, many unique features. JK's MP is also great, perfect over a LAN.

 

Quake2's reviews on the other hand, all basically said, an improvement over Quake1, however the MP seems buggy and incomplete. (this is of course before the billion patches they released to fix it). Many still say that Quakeworld is still superior in terms of latency and quality of servers than anything for Quake2.

 

And yes, you're right, Id software will have nothing to do with ObiWan, and most likely the Sith engine won't either. However LEC will be making it, so we can expect quality.

 

Also, I forgot to mention this, but recent magazines, going over the "top games of.. whatever" always mention JK as being one of the "great ones." They also say that since its release, few games have been able to touch it in terms of depth, uniqueness and fun. It still maintains its own charm and character, even after all this time. That, I think says alot about the team who developed and put it together. ; )

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 20, 2000).]

[Guest rapina]

From a game company standpoint, free editing really does nothing except. A pain in the ass for programmers like J. Carmack and Tim Sweeny, come on Kurgan I d0n’t get it why you always excuse LEC…

 

Wilhuf: you’re right, I have been here at this site for some time and I have read very similar comments to yours. Believe me, there are a lot of people with the same reasoning.

 

Kurgan: you’re really traumatized with this Quake thing dude.

1. - Comparing RTS with FPS.

2. – idsoftware artwork vs. George Lucas.(ouch!!)

3. – The Battle zone effect. (you know, a great game that no one plays)

 

A screenshot doesn’t say much of a rendering engine, at least to me.

 

Funny thing Kurgan brought an interesting idea, EverQuest, as far as I know you can not edit it, like a some FPS (Quake, UT whatever) but that what the game is all about “customizing it” you increase you level with experience mana, to develop your character, just like some folks invest lots of time to create a MOD.

 

Customizing.

Editing.

MOD making.

TC making.

MAP making.

Clan making.

Tournaments.

Those are the great things of PC games.

 

A lot of people want those features “out of the box” since we all have the feeling that the companies making those games have the time and money to do so. And the price that they put on the box deserve it.

 

[Guest Neumi]

Don't misunderstand me, I really like the exterior levels.

 

"exterior levels" does not describe that exactly what I had in mind. In fact I was thinking of the two levels on Kyles home planet. The frst one shows some very weak graphic elements, that's what the pc games magazines meant.

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Don't misunderstand me rapina, I am speaking in generalities to prove a point.

 

Alot of general (and some strong statements) have been made in these forums on the subject of editing. Some examples of paraphrases:

 

"If ObiWan doesn't have editing, it will suck big time!"

 

"If ObiWan lacks editing, I won't buy it!"

 

"If ObiWan lacks editing, then it just goes to show that LucasArts is a suck-ass company!"

 

"If ObiWan lacks editing, it won't make any money/If ObiWan has editing, it will make alot more money."

 

"LucasArts isn't going to let us edit because they are greedy and ignore us consumers!"

 

"Lucasarts is stupid, because they don't realize that editing will increase sales of their game(s) and make them more money."

 

I think these claims are unfounded and illogical for the most part.

 

Many of these same statements were applied to other LucasArts games, like Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine. Petitions went around begging for editing, and rumors fly about as to why editing was not allowed, etc.

 

People are basically saying that unless a game is editable, they won't buy it. I point out that it is unreasonable to expect a game to be editable, because most aren't. They claim that games that are editable sell better than those that aren't, I was pointing out that that is not necessarily true.

 

If these standards only apply to LucasArts games, why is one company being singled out to unreasonable standards? Are we that spoiled?!

 

Also, I wouldn't consider "building your character" in an RPG to be editing, unless you are actually editing your character and releasing it as a mod (like they did with Diablo.. which most considered cheating). If it's already built into the game and you aren't modifying files, then it can't be called editing. I mean I might as well call naming my character, finding a secret, getting the high score, or saving my game "editing." Those are just normal parts of the game. When I speak of editing, I mean you take files that are part of the game, and you add to or modify them (either with a GUI editor, a text editor, a 3d modelling program, a graphical editor, etc), then you release your changes to the public.

 

No, rapina, I'm not comparing dissimilar things just to be funny, I'm doing it because some folks on here seem to have unrealistic views of what editing is and should be. They need to understand these facts:

 

Not all games are editable, in fact a majority of video games are NOT editable. If editing was so important, as many claim, then why are most games not editable?

 

Not all successful games are editable, in fact a majority of successful video games are NOT editable. Since this is true, how do those who make such claims about editing explain this fact? If editing was so important, than editable games should be the only successful ones, or should at least be doing better than the non-editable ones.

 

Some games that are editable, are not edited, even if they happen to be successful. If this is true, then the claim that editing increases sales of the game doesn't hold up. Why would you buy the game for a feature you'd never use?

 

For the games that have "communities" and feature editing, only a small fraction of those who own the game ever get into editing (and fewer of those ever actually release anything "good"). From this we can deduce that most folks who buy the game don't do so for the editing.

 

There is no conclusive evidence that shows that editable games are more profitable than games that are not editable, even over long periods of time.

 

There is evidence that games that feature editing, if they are successful to begin with, have a longer lasting "fan base" than games that lack this feature, but this is beside the point. It does not relate to sales.

 

Thus, if I were a game company, and I saw no benefit in "extending the life of the community" of a game I had created (assuming it would be successful to begin with) I would not care in the least about editing.

 

If I was a game company, and my game was successful, I could make more money by releasing sequals, addon packs, etc that I created, I would not have to allow fans to create free addons to distribute amongst those who already paid for the game.

 

Also, if I were a game company, I would feel no obligation to allow editing, as it would only encourage legal difficulties (even if they be small ones), and it would not be something that was essential to the game's success (as so many successful games don't feature it).

 

I think the 'benefits' of editing that so many on this forum have clamored about (and the folks over at indyjones.net) is that they want there to be editing, so that:

 

1) if they choose (but this applies only to a few) they can edit the game to their liking

 

and/or

 

2) if they ever grow tired of the basic conventions of the game, their enthusiasm for the game can be renewed (and they will feel they got more for their money in the long run) for a bit longer by the prescense of addons, assuming that good ones get made in a reasonable span of time.

 

Those benefits are indeed attractive, however they assume that:

 

1) the game is successful (unsuccessful games tend not to have any sort of communities, and thus no editing, as nobody cares enough to try and make something)

 

2) the game has a reasonably sized/devoted community. usually this applies only to Multiplayer games, but there are exceptions. if you're the only person in your state who has the game, chances are you're not going to have much of a community, unless you can find some other people somewhere else who care.

 

3) there are individuals within the community talented enough, or who are willing to put in the time and effort to create addons through editing, and then have the generosity to release them to the the public

 

4) the addons that are created are of some quality as to be appealing

 

The presence of editing in a game by no means guarentees any of those factors, which should lead to the above benefits, and again, these only affect those who ALREADY OWN THE GAME (ie: they aren't making the game companies any richer through their efforts.. except maybe in the case of an editable pay-per-play game that attracts more people through addons, but I know of no such game...).

 

Another thing to keep in mind is, what about the folks who buy the game, but never hop onto the 'net to see if there are any addons, or even a community? I'm sure there are still people out there who lack ISP's, or modems, or who simply don't have the know-how to get on there and find out, or who simply don't care beyond what came in the box.

 

I'm not against editing, and I'm not against those who want editing, I'm just asking you to put these things in perspective and not get so fanatical about it that you start flaming and whining all the time. There, I said my rant (apologies if you have other more valid reasons for your requests), that's all I should have to say about this. ; )

 

One more thing, no I am not jaded by Quake, because I never liked the game in the first place. But one thing that constantly comes up in the "editing" debate is that people try to say how the success of Quake was because of its editing, and how all other games must conform to this same idea or they are inferior to Quake. I don't understand their logic as it doesn't seem to gel with the facts. They may wish to believe this, but I don't think this is backed up by any solid evidence.

 

I would want ObiWan to have editing, but I don't believe it will affect the sales of the game in any way, and its presence or lack thereof will not directly affect my decision to buy the game. It will also not guarentee that any good free addons will ever be released for it.

 

LEC will not really benefit from providing editing for ObiWan except that a small number of the already satisfied customers who bought the game will play it for a longer period of time than if there was no editing. This may contribute to a small increase in customer loyalty, and will give them something to "tide them over" until the next big hit, but that's about all it does. Keep in mind releasing commercial editors takes more time, and they have to put it through testing, etc, and organize those legal disclaimers, etc. It's not like they can just say "okay, editing, boom, have fun."

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 20, 2000).]

[Guest Vagabond]

Kurgan,

 

Not being rude here, so don't take offense okay? Sometimes less is more. Most of your posts are so big that I'm not willing to take the time to read the whole, freaking big-a$$, long thing. Just fyi.

 

Anyway, here's my two cents on this issue:

 

If LucasArts is going after the hardcore FPS fans, then Obi-Wan better have editing, dedicated server support, and competitive graphics to UT and Q3.

 

However, if LA is going after the mainstream Joe Shmoe gamer, then they can make the game as simple and blah as they want to, realizing that they will be alienating much of their original JK fan base.

 

 

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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

 

We are all but actors, and the world is our stage...

 

 

 

[Guest jedimathias]

You working on a 100 pg. thesis there Kurgan lol ;-)

[Guest Dark Jedi]

I agree with Vagabond. I personally think graphics are great but they only make up the eyecandy part of the game so I don't care if it doesn't equal Quake 3 quality (which had awesome graphics but from what I heard about gameplay I am not going to buy it). However I entirely agree that they will alienate the a great many of the fans of JK/MOTS if they leave out Deticated Server support, editing, and good gameplay. LEC did not include an editor for Jedi Knight or Mysteries of the Sith, only they allowed it to be edited and thus JED was created which is a great editor (although I don't get the hang of it). They might not need to include an editor although it would be better if they did. It needs at the very least to be editable and include good internet/server support. Personally without deticated server support and editing allowed (preferably including an editor) I don't think I will buy Obi Wan.

Dark Jedi

 

"Great games are always great games, time will not stop that, only changing it."

[Guest rapina]

 

A huge amount of writing just to say in a very rhetoric way that editing isn’t crucial in a game? Perhaps in the past, but today I think not, you’re missing the point again, instead of explain the good reason why not to include a level editor, tell why Tim Sweeny instead of fixing UnreaL he always said that he was very busy with UnrealED(damn TIM), he was always talking about “UnreaLED this and that”, Why so much work and effort in something that is utterly useless(marketing wise)? Come on, get a grip.

 

Just to clear other missed point:

Building your character" in an RPG to be editing... obviously not, but to me is a similar feeling, I never said IT WAS THE SAME THING... those words are different: editing and customizing. You may check that in any dictionary.

In an RPG you take THE ROLL of whatever you want, you create your caracter.

When you edit, you are the creator, the author of something. Technically both are totally and completely different. But I do feel it the same way.

 

And if you care less if obiwan have an editor or not, that you, a lot of people doesn’t think the same way. Games have fancy boxes, extremely elaborated artwork, complex rendering engines, cool soundtrack, interesting plots, instruction booklets, and EDITORS to SELL and SELL and SELL and… got the idea?

If it’s in the box, trust me, all what the company wants is to sell more and not just a conspiracy to be against your opinion.

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

I think our points are clear rapina, so quite complaining. ; )

 

We're just sharing our points of view, if you don't like it, well.. you're entitled to your's.

 

Editing is big on the 'net.. but that's only a small slice of the total sales of certain games, so it's no big deal. Again, only a tiny portion of the online "community" for any game edits anyway, and of those, even fewer produce any addons that are any good.

 

Like politicians, game developers will throw in "bonus" features (assuming they have the time and money to burn to do so) to make people think it's worth buying. But, these take a back seat to getting the game out on schedule for the big score. Get it?

 

Vagabond, I understand your concern, but I honestly don't care. ; ) If you don't like the way I type, don't read it, nobody's forcing you.

 

I dunno rapina, why would Tim be concerned about UnrealEd? Hmm.. I dunno.. just maybe it might be used to make the GAMES perhaps? I don't think the Unreal Mission pack(s) and UT just spontaneously spawned their own levels by themselves!

 

As far as alienating the community by not including X features.. why? JK and MOTS are still selling and being played, without them. I can see your logic, but I don't see any evidence to back it up, sorry.

 

One might as well say that Quake3 alienated the secondary fire community by releasing Q3A without secondary fire support (well they did actually.. sniff). ; )

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 21, 2000).]

[Guest Neumi]

Kurgan, be true: Some of your postings ARE way to long. Some things never change. *g*

 

Anyway:

You're right about "including futures". I don't think a lot of people will NOT be offended by a missing level editor.

As long as LucasArts ALLOWS to edit, editing will be done.

Look what happened with JK: Jed and JKEdit are some very nice programs, there are other programs to create animations.

A lot of fans are happy if they can spend a lot of time finding out how the game works and creating editors for it.

I personally prefer such fan editors. I never created anything with a official editor.

 

But I don't think, the Unreal Editor shipped with the game was used to create the levels.

They sure had something mor complicated.

Normally editors like 3ds or autocad are used to create the levels.

When the main structure is completed, the file has to be converted. Other software is used to include textures and objects.

I think the programmer spent so much time to create a editor for fans. they sure counted on the internet comunity.

 

LEC Games really don't need editors - in a certain sense.

LEC is not a company producing games for hard core gamers. They make them for anyone.

If hardcore gamer want to do something with the game, they sure will find a way.

 

I don't care about an editor in JK.

But I hope they ALLOW u to do something.

I had a projet running I would like to continue.

The JK/MotS engine couldn't handle the amount of polygons, so I had to wait.

And I hope also, LEC will use again the Bink video engine, so I can do something. I hated the video format used in MotS. I want to include rendered cut scenes.

If I do levels, than for single player and cut scenes MUST be included.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Neumi (edited February 22, 2000).]

[Guest Vagabond]

Kurgan, as fate would have it, I don't read your mobius posts. Too long, too little time

 

Again, I wasn't trying to offend you, but rather perhaps provide suggestions for improvement. The fewer words a point can be clearly stated in the better. The quality, not the quantity of words is what matters.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it until I find a better story!

 

 

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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

 

We are all but actors, and the world is our stage...

 

 

 

[Guest rapina]

Vag is right again, AND just to make clear ANOTHER POINT...

 

UnreaLED shipped with UnreaL but without tech support and with bugs(BETA), like Worldcraft 2 of HL, he wanted to release a final version with UT tournament that originally was a patch for UnreaL

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

From what I understood, Unreal was a first venture..with both MP and SP, and it was a test to see if they could take the Quake (tried and true) formula and make it better by giving it better graphics and more features (like secondary fire, bots, bystanders, a real storyline, etc).

 

UT and Unreal 2 form a second attempt (to correct the flaws of Unreal and make a better game).

 

UT was to be focused on one thing: makeing multiplayer, in the tradition of Unreal and making it the best it could possibly be.

 

Unreal 2, then from what I understand, will be to take Sp, in the tradition of Unreal, and make it the best it can be.

 

Thus instead of having a great Sp game with half-hearted MP, or a great MP game with mediocre Sp, you have a specialized game for each. Hardcore MP fans buy UT, and hardcore Sp fans buy Unreal 2.

 

The editor was only included with Unreal as an added bonus. They also wanted to see if they could establish an "editing community" to generate hype like the Quake community had. Think of it this way: that way they can say "well our game has a huge editing community" so Quake advocates couldn't say "but we have editing and you don't!"

 

Still, it's a tiny percentage. I see it more of a gimmick than anything earthshattering. I mean editing has been around for years, but it hasn't been the sole deciding factor in the rise or fall of games. It just isn't that significant.

 

Vagabond: A short attention span, if you were born with it, is not something to be totally ashamed of. However, if you WANT THE ANSWERS, read the posts!

 

Kurgan

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Okay, Vaggy, maybe I do care a bit, I'm a bit offended that you would ignore my thought-out posts just because they look long (when I take the time to read the looong posts of others myself). I'll give one last attempt:

Editing does not decide whether or not a game will be successful or not.

 

Editing is not the reason most people buy games.

 

Editing does not significantly affect the sales of a game.

 

Note: When I say "Editing" I mean free third party editing, not mods released commercially or by the company for publicity.

 

If you can back up refutations of these claims with some solid evidence, fine, but as I see it, the claims that Editing is so dang important to a game's sales and popularity, are invalid.

 

So, in conclusion: if ObiWan lacks editing, it won't mean a thing to LEC or to the majority of people who buy the game. It won't significantly affect the sales of the game either.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 22, 2000).]

[Guest Vagabond]

LOL!

 

See Kurgan, that wasn't so bad! I was able to read your entire post here and now understand your position.

 

But again, I wasn't trying to offend you. If I did, just know that it wasn't intentional.

 

So Kurgan, what Impact do you think editing in Obi-Wan would have on the long term career aspirations of Mr. Snuffelupagus...just out of curiosity?

 

 

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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

 

We are all but actors, and the world is our stage...

 

 

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Well, I guess I'm jaded, because some folks (not going to name any names.. ahem) will take you out of context, or they will demand a fuller explanation if you just put it simply, as you like it.

 

They assume you don't know anymore about what you are posting than the content in your post, so I tend to get wordy. I'd rather post once and for all, then a dozen times saying the same thing, only clarifying it more and more. But I also don't want to bore you so much that you never read another post of mine again! ; )

 

Kurgan

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

(now that my good friend Vagabond has digested that)

 

I think that if the following conditions are met:

 

1) ObiWan is a good game (this will probably assume it has great MP)

AND

2) It generates a decent fan base on the 'net

AND

3) If editing is allowed for it by LEC (which I don't see why they wouldn't, but we don't know yet)

 

Then I think editing will begin, just as it did in JK, little at first, then more and more as time goes on and people get tired of the "normal" game, and get more ambitious.

Like JK, alot of the projects will flop, but some will stick and they'll be cool.

 

They won't have an impact on sales though. It will just mean some more fun for the folks that already have the game and are on the 'net. If ObiWan has the popularity of JK, I'm sure a mission pack will be released for it at some point.

 

rapina: Why do I always make excuses for LEC?

 

Well I'll tell you why, because I think they are being unfairly criticized. I hear almost nothing but whining about how they suck and they need to this and this for us ungrateful peons. I mean really! Just want a little bit of balance here. Besides, I think alot of people are ignorant about the nature of the gaming industry, and how programming and design works. They aren't magicians, they have deadlines, families, budgets, market analysists, and they are people just like you and me (only they have better jobs). ; )

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 22, 2000).]

[Guest Dark Jedi]

Actually Kurgan unfortunately I disagree on your third point. You state that it probably will be editable because there is no reason not to. Unfortunately that is incorrect. Unlike Jedi Knight which only had minor made up characters (Kyle Katarn) Obi Wan has a character that has been in many (I think all) of the movies. So from purely a legal point of view Obi Wan probably won't be editable. This would be unfortunate but it makes sense.

[Guest Argath]

Hopefully that won't be the case, but, as you said, there is a good chance that an extremely restrictive license agreement will be shipped with Obi-Wan. Whether editing does or doesn't increase the sales of a game doesn't matter to me, and is, in my opinion, something of a pointless subject to debate. I'm more concerned with whether the game will be legally editable, and whether it hurts or helps sales doesn't change the fact that many people enjoy editing, and the inability to do so would make the game a lot less enjoyable for them.

 

I'm sure that everyone who has posted in this thread will agree that editing is fun and helps create a unique online community for a game, and not allowing people to release mods for Obi-Wan will definitely make the game a great deal less enjoyable. Let's just hope that LucasArts, LucasFilm, or whoever is in charge of the license agreements doesn't restrict editing for Obi-Wan.

[Guest Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Okay. I heard that the only reason different games have different license agreements is because the people in charge of that at the time it was released thought it should be the way. They also said that a lot depends on how hard the development team pushes for the game to be editable.

 

I think that if we express how much we want editability, then LEC may just listen. I also agree completely with Argath that "editing is fun and helps create a unique online community for a game, and not allowing people to release mods for Obi-Wan will definitely make the game a great deal less enjoyable."

 

-UkeNuke www.monolith3d.com

 

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The Darkside? I've been there. Do your worst.

 

[Wilhuf]

Hey the topic here was supposed to be 'Obi-Wan's Graphics!'

 

How do you actually know whether an editor affects game sales? Did you actually conduct a consumer survey that measures the game qualities and features that led to a sale? I'd really like to see the results.

 

I think there is too much hypothesizing, and too little actual observation.

 

Like I've said before, if sales is the only important thing, we should be demanding that Steven Shaw make another 'Deer Hunter' with absolutely zero features.

 

I see no flaw in the reasoning that having an editor ship with a game will help its longevity. I've cited half life and quakex as obvious examples.

 

There is simply no comparison between the size of the Jedi Knight communities and the quakex/HL communities. JK is small, somewhat elite, and familiar, and is fading. Quakex/HL is *huge* and somewhat impersonal, and thriving.

 

Even Tribes has a larger online following than JK.

 

I say we need to make fewer excuses for LEC, and more demands on LEC to ship a polished product.

 

Wilhuf