Obi-Wan's Graphics

[Guest Argath]

The development teams, at least in the case of Totally Games with X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, have absolutely no say in what LEC puts in the license agreement. While it is up to the programmers to decide how easy it is the modify their game, they don't have much of a say in any of the legal matters.

[Guest Dark Jedi]

Yeah I agree Argath. In the beginning of jedi knight I was really excited about it and couldn't wait to buy it. Now I will be more patient. If I hear people think the game stinks or there is simply no deticated server support, or stuff like that I am not going to buy it. It would be awesome if there is deticated server, great gameplay (and multiplayer) in addition and if Obi Wan will have this I will defenately buy this.

"Those with great patience, are rewarded greatly"

[Wilhuf]

How do you know how much say a programmer has in terms of the contents of an End User License Agreement? (If that is what you are talking about).

 

Short of actually writing the doucment, a task left to legal dept., programmers have at least some role in crafting the spirit and concept behind EULAs. I'm sure the level of involvement differs case by case.

 

Wilhuf

 

 

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

I say we need to make fewer excuses for LEC, and more demands on LEC to ship a polished product

 

This isn't at issue. I think most of us agree, with few exceptions, that the games LEC releases are polished on delivery. Many game companies release a game, and patch it over the period of a year (at least that has happened with many FPS in the last two years, the successful ones). I see this as irresonsible, however, I can understand the problems of releasing a game on time in the competative gaming industry today.

 

The question is: without editing, will ObiWan fail? I say, no, because there's never been an example of a game that failed due to lack of editing. Really, how can you show me that Editing DOES affect sales?

 

Well, I guess I'm "making excuses for LEC" while others are simply flaming LEC. Is it so wrong that I have a different point of view? I think not, however, we can all share what we believe.

 

You tell me: are game companies more concerned that their game is played for a long period of time, or that they get alot of money from it?

 

If I play a game that I bought for 6 months, or I play it for 2 months, do you really think the company that made it cares, as long as I bought it and didn't return it?

 

My whole point was that:

the "longevity of the community" and the ability to edit the game freely, are simply things a FEW of us like to do.

 

The game companies could care less if we do that, as long as we fill their pockets. Face it, it's true of every for-profit industry out there. They aren't giving away charity, they're in it to make money. Sure they want loyal customers, but they can't please everybody, no matter what. Somebody somewhere will always be unsatisfied. They have to shoot for the biggest margin possible while minimizing cost.

 

I would LOVE if ObiWan had editing, and I would ask LEC to please, please, please with sugar on top, make it editable for us, the gamers! But beyond that, I'm not going to go on any boycott, or shooting spree because it lacks just one feature. If the game is good, blah blah blah, editing is only one more feature, it's not the game itself.

 

Plenty of other games are editable, with better graphics than ObiWan. You can also go make SW mods for those games, can't you?

 

Kurgan

 

[Guest m_w_noname]

First off, wasn't this a graphics topic?

 

But on the subject of editing, Is there any reason to think that Obi-wan won't be editable? Has LEC actually said it won't? I mean, let's look at the history here...

Dark forces - editable

Outlaws - editable

Jedi Knight - editable

 

Are they going to ship an editor? I doubt it.. I've heard that most companys these days don't even have an inhouse editor themselves. Most are now using 3Ds Max, Maya, Lightwave or some other modeling package. They could ship the editor, but that kind of increases the price to about $3000+ Do we really want the game company writing and debugging an editor, or working on shipping a quality, stable product?

 

Are the developers in on writing lisensing agreements? I'm sure they voice their opinions and protests, do the legal people listen? Who knows? The point is, unless the person developing the game funds it themselves, I'm sure they tend to sacrifice a lot of control of the publishing in order to get funding.

 

"are game companies more concerned that their game is played for a long period of time, or that they get alot of money from it?" I Agree with Kurgan on this, but add... Are the developers concerned that their game is played for a long period of time... I'm certain that the majority of them are.

 

My personal opinion...

[Guest Argath]

An employee at Totally Games said that Lucasarts gives them no say in the EULA. I don't know whether LEC gives their other programming teams more say or not, which is why I explicitly said "In the case of Totally Games".

[Guest rapina]

yeah Kurgan, somebody use the word “polished” on his statement and woila!!!

A long post.

I’m just going t o fix it because you seems to love to twisting Things a little bit like saying that WE are flaming LEC mean while you choose to be a conformist.

It should read something like this:

I say we need to make fewer excuses for LEC, and more demands on LEC to ship a “complete” product that worth every single cent that I paid for it.

I think that’s the idea that he was trying to share.

Despite the fact that almost all the boxes of games have the same content: A booklet and the CD-ROM (1 or 2), obiwan is going to have “less”.

 

Flaming companies isn’t that bad, look at me, I’m the #1 flamer of EpicMegames, and finally there is going to be patch for UnreaL that is going to fix it’s problems in Direct3D. (I’M JUST KIDDING)

 

Remember: try not to be a conformist(follower, sheep, whatever).

 

[This message has been edited by rapina (edited February 24, 2000).]

[Guest m_w_noname]

"Despite the fact that almost all the boxes of games have the same content: A booklet and the CD-ROM (1 or 2), obiwan is going to have “less”."

 

What do you mean "less"?

[Guest rapina]

oops, sorry some times I find myself writing too fast, and since this isn't my language I mess-up what I write.

 

The meaning is: it won't have as much features as others games like UT Q3A: no level editor. and perhaps difficult to make mod's as powerful as the C++ support of HL, Q2/3A etc. I hope that nobody find this post too complex.

 

excuse my poor english.

rapiña

 

[This message has been edited by rapina (edited February 25, 2000).]

[Wilhuf]

Talk about extrapolating... It's irritating to be quoted out of context.

 

Asking that LEC provide the user community with editing tools isnt flaming. Actually, it's a positive and critical attitude.

 

Why is sales the priority? Presumably the thinking is that we should look at game production from a business point of view? We can do that.

 

As a software developer, my focus is on identifying what features are desireable for the client. The focus shouldn't be on 'does this feature boost sales for my product.' The focus is 'is this software useful, will people use it, does it have the features that users really want.' If we can truthfully answer yes to these questions, we can sell plenty of copies.

 

It was suggested that if I want to edit Obi-Wan, I should simply make my own Star Wars mod using some 'other' game that does feature a level editor. Again, looking at this from a business standpoint, I am bound to loose repeat customers if I insist that my customers buy a different, competing product if they want a feature I am too lazy to incorporate.

 

If Obi Wan is well done, the Star Wars license will easily carry the game into healthy sales. This makes good business sense. LEC can and does exploit its star wars license for sales. Jedi Knight was their best selling title after all.

 

BTW neither LucasFilm nor LucasArts are strapped for cash.

 

Setting a priority on sales will only harm the game quality. TPM and PodRacer, both rushed products for a tie in to the release of the TPM film demonstrated this.

 

'If money is all you love, then that is what you will receive.' If you want to focus on sales, I recommend you use 'Deer Hunter' as a business model. That game took a few weeks to develop, had what most would consider sub-par game play, but sold like hotcakes. Because it was priced extremely well and cost essentially nothing to produce, it made *huge* margins.

 

I can't imagine many JK/MotS fans would be satisfied with a Deer Hunter quality game.

 

Why the insistence that only a small number of users would benefit from an editor? There's no basis for that conclusion. Actually, many people could benefit, if only they had the tools. The lack of an official editor in JK really harmed the editing community. It makes no sense to point to the anemic size of the JK editing community as proof that no editors are needed for Obi Wan. To the contrary, it demonstrates the negative impact of a lack of an editor. And it *is* LEC's fault.

 

And how exactly does one know how many end users like to edit JK/MotS? An official editor was never released! And how do we really know what affect editing tools have on game sales? Short of a survey, noone really knows.

 

Does a company care about the longevity of a multiplayer gaming community? LEC appears not to. The lack of multiplayer features in JK/MotS and more recent titles reflects this disconcern. (Although XWA's skirmish editor was a step in the right direction).

 

Just because LEC didn't care doesnt mean they can't now, and that their competition doesn't care either. Epic Games has demonstrated this in their support for the Unreal/UT mod community, which is thriving. Even Justin Chin, creator of Jedi Knight adopted Unreal technology for his next game 'New Legends' ( http://www.infinite-machine.com ).

 

Just because the longevity and activity of a game multiplayer community doesnt matter to everyone doesn't mean it isn't important to many. What really matters is that LEC produces a product that is polished and caters to the multiplayer community in a way that competes with other more successful multiplayer games.

 

Wilhuf

 

P.S. LEC's record on publishing 'polished games' isn't flawless. DF1, Outlaws, XVT and XWA all had significant official patchwork. Outlaws was a great example however, not so much because it corrected errors, but because it added new multiplayer content. JK had a minor tech patch to fix some video and joystick issues.

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 25, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Well I've said my peace on this subject (for the billionth time, lol).

 

Either you agree with me, or you don't (and that's fine either way).

 

If you took my posts the wrong way, sorry man. I was talking to the people who were demanding editing, or ObiWan was going to fail, etc etc. I think they are seeing things in a narrow view and misunderstanding the way things work. Is LEC a non-profit organization? Do we pay their salaries? Do they not try to make money? Last I checked they were not a charity. Was their motto "making people happy no matter what"? If it is, tell me, cause I forgot. If you weren't flaming LEC, then you weren't flaming LEC, and I wasn't talking to you.

 

If the game isn't worth it.. give LEC a message with your pockebook, by NOT BUYING IT. Simple enough, isn't it. Maybe you think you're some big political giant for flaming a game company, or making unrealistic demands of them based on lack of knowledge of the industry, I dunno. I'm not calling anybody a conformist or a sheep here, but if you want to call people names, fine, you can do that too, just don't get out of control.

 

If you want to keep flaming game companies, fine, go ahead. If it's such an important issue, then we'll see it make or break the game, and in that case I hope you guys get what you want. good luck!

 

Feel free to email me if you want to talk to me further on this topic, otherwise I'm out.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Darth Kurgan (edited February 25, 2000).]

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

I really dont give a damn if a level editor is included. I am an editor of jk/mots with several good tc expected soon. But after many discussions I see what Kurgan is on about. JK was a good game before people edited it.

I would choose Jed(www.darkjedi.com)over world craft for half life anyday, because world craft is well **** and less user friendly. Why don't you let those nice guys at dark jedi make a editor. 3do's were difficult to do but it was okay. If lucas release their editor some other game design company may use it.

 

In the end it is lucas arts who publish the game and therefore they decide what to allow and what not to allow. Not up to the engine makers.

 

I will not judge this game at this stage. We still do not know much about it. Most of it is rumours and it is stupid to fight over them.

 

Also another reason why they did not release an editor is because they porbably use special equipment. If you have seen how they drawn cartoons on a pc with a special pen and powerful pc's, well the average person probably does not have these devices to hand and therefore there is no point in relesing them...

Think about it!

 

 

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The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

 

 

 

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

I missed something out of my last post:-

The program most used to make 3do's by games companies is a super version of 3d studio.

If you get this program you should be able to edit most 3d games.....

That is what I have been told...

Correct me if you want.

 

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The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

 

 

 

[Guest Heidi Clogs]

Powerful machine?

Special Pen??

This isn't a cartoon!!

Just buy 3d Studio max and see how easy it is to create wireframes!! The editor, if there was one included, wouldn't be extremely difficult to use. JED at first was hard and so was world-craft but with determination they weren't so hard to use

 

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Now you will feel the power of my clogs!

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

I think they might, like an autocad type tool

they are more accurite.

Please notice the word "like" in the sentance in my post. They may not use 3d studio but I meant they would use a program more powerful that 3d Studio!

There could be a program which is more powerful the 3d studio max but they have programed it or it is not avalible to the general public.

No-one knows this so you can't say there is not a program more powerful.

I personnaly do not know this, but they may need a program which intergrates the code with the engine.

No-one knows, which is true, they might have their own program, then again they may not.

Really I don't care!

 

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The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

 

 

 

[Guest Argath]

Exactly what would qualify something as "more powerful" than 3D Studio? In general, models are designed with modeleing tools like 3DS Max and then converted to whatever format the game is using through in-house converters. Developing a new program to design models is time-consuming and pointless when such programs already exist. Models aren't coded, so there is no need to "integrate the code into the engine". Whoever told you there is some special program that somehow has support for the dozens of different model formats games use is incorrect.

 

Many times, levels are the only componenet designed completely through special software, and the level editors used for development are undocumented and buggy, which makes them basically worthless to the public. When asked about the tool used to design the missions in XvT, a TG programmer mentioned that their own level editor paled in comparison to XvTED, a fan-made editor. Game companies don't get any special programs to develop their games. They usually create content using existing software and then convert it to whatever format they created for the game.

[Guest Tseveren PsyoniC]

I just started on this board, and I was curious more as to what Obi-Wan was about. I'm really looking forward to this because it's LEC showing once again that they can add a new light to an older concept.

 

First off, what makes a game good. Ever play pong?? Playability makes it fun. Pong had exceptionally poor graphics, yet it was so addicting that when it was thrown into older games like Commander Keen, people would actually stop playing the game and start playing the pong that was included on "Keen's watch".

 

Secondly, what really made Jedi Knight and MotS fun? Certainly wasn't the startling graphics, sure they weren't the best on the market at the time. It was every little "quirk" they'd put into the game. Force powers, lightsaber combat, a 2nd fire on most weapons. Usability.

 

Still on the Usability topic, what poor soul here has tried to play EverQuest with Cable modem and a 200MMX machine. I hope not many of you because the game almost doesn't run unless you have the super-high end machine and the bottem-less checkbook for upgrades on your machine. Sure EverQuest, a completely multiplayer game doesn't work that well on a mid-range machine, but X-Wing Alliance, which in my mind has better graphics because of colour composition, and quality of the models. They don't have to be spectacular detail, just look good and make the game smooth.

 

As a Art student hoping to get into the computer game and/or special effects and animation business, I know what it's like to create something and have dit perverted to something different. Granted, I do believe certain editors should be added to a game to make it more complete. For example, a basic skin editor similar to one put into the IndyCar and NASCAR games by Papyrus. Level editors fine, I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a simple one put into place, it of course adds a personal twist to the game. But why would an artist, someone who's put a lot of work into something give you crayons so you can "add" to his creation.

 

Frankly, I never expect the graphics to be detailed, and I don't think they need to be, to be good. What in my experience people want to avoid is having to buy a new computer just because software they've just perchased is to "heavy" for their computer which they just recently upgraded.

 

-Graphics simple, fine

-Smooth, needs to be.

-Sound, LEC never does a bad job

-Editing, LEC or third party, it will happen and it's not going to make a big difference in sales.

-Playability, it's a must, because there's nothing more frustrating than a game you can't play, but hey, it looks damn good.

-Quirks and Usability, what one of us here after seeing TPM didn't want to be, Darth Maul, Obi-Wan, or Qui-Gon or any other in the cast for that matter. Who knows, we might just see a Darth Maul multiplayer character with a Double-Bladed lightsaber. Secondly who didn't love the use of force in JK/MotS?

- Story, have you ever been truly disappointed in a SW story of any kind no matter how impractical it seemed?

 

LEC, always (in my mind) delivers a playable product that does the job better than another game.

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

I never said there was an editor more powerful, I said there could be.....

My last post was full of maybe's, I never said anything was certain, because I myself was uncertain.

 

I also never said that Lucas Arts MAY have programed a beter 3d editor, I said one may exist that is only avalible to large games companies like Lucas Arts or Westwood studio's for example.

 

I do stand corrected on the intergration thing though, sometimes I get carried away and I then can type something stupid.

 

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The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Jedi Master Xai-Qui (edited February 26, 2000).]

[Guest Argath]

Whether you said "there is" or "there could be" is irrelevent. Either way, there isn't, so arguing over it is pointless. I still don't understand what would make something "more powerful" than commercially avaialable modeling packages.

[Guest rapina]

Despite the fact that Tseveren PsyoniC made a good post, I still don’t like the idea of been a conformist like… well, certain moderator.

 

 

[Wilhuf]

A better way to get LEC to include the features we want would be to tell them here in this forum, or perhaps on web petition, or directly e-mailing LEC, rather than simply throwing up our hands and saying 'I'm not going to buy Obi-Wan.' It doesn't require a political statement or accusations of conformity or otherwise.

 

(Do LEC employees read this board btw?)

 

It was suggested here that game developers suffer with substandard editing tools. Persumably this is a reason we shouldn't expect LEC to publish an editor?

 

Some companies have actually developed some fairly decent tools which they released to the public. WorldCraft for Half Life and UnrealEdit for Unreal are good examples of editing tools which developers used and also released to the public. Why should LEC be the exception, or should I say exemption?

 

It was also suggested that adding an editing tool could somehow lead to the bastardization of the game developer's (or artist's) existing work. Without a doubt, all kinds of strange, ugly and useless works could be produced with the right tools. And of course having the tools doesn't guarantee talent.

 

On the other hand, does it really matter? Would Steven Shaw or anyone else at LEC (except for the lawyers perhaps) loose sleep over a few user-made maps? Would George care?

 

Wouldn't there be at least a few end users who could make something of quality if only they had the tools? Steven Shaw or even George the almighty himself might even think, 'yeah that's pretty cool, someone made a great Obi-Wan map, the online community is really into this.'

 

Few end users actually use a game editor. That does not mean the benefit is for the editors only. It is certain that many many more people enjoy the benefits of their work. HL Counterstrike is a great example of how the work of only a few is enjoyed by thousands of gamers. An editor for Obi-Wan is 'a good thing' that is worth LEC's time and investment.

 

Other gaming companies have raised the bar, and LEC should be expected to at least jump for it a little bit.

 

Wilhuf

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 28, 2000).]

[Guest Argath]

I'd describe a lot of development software as undocumented, buggy, complicated, and untested on all but the development systems, but not really substandard. Game developers don't need a nice GUI with labeled buttons and pages of documentation that would be required for public release.

 

I actually brought up the topic of buggy development tools in response to someone saying game companies have a sort of super software that is better than anything the consumers could purchase. It shouldn't be an excuse for not releasing an editor with the game, as other companies have obviously done so, but I still don't see why a bundled editor should be required. I buy a game based on what's in the package, not what I can add on to it. As long as editing is allowed by the EULA, I will be happy.

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

Oh, one more thing. Why does a company's wanting to "maximize sales" have to mean the game sucks?

 

Just because Deer Hunter sold alot and Heretic II didn't doesn't mean squat. It just goes to show that the "quality" (that is what features they found the client would want, etc) do not decide how successful a game would be. In an ideal world, only "good quality" games would make money, and drive the crappy ones out of business.

 

Deer Hunter made money because (this is what marketers speculate):

 

1) It was more widely available

 

2) It had low system requirments (more computers could run it)

 

3) It appealed to "non gamers" that is to the casual game player, not the hardcores. there are more casual and non-gamers out there who would get them as gifts, or buy them for friends

 

4) It was cheap.. in the bargain bin. the first place alot of folks look when going out to buy gifts, or to look for some cheap entertainment for their computer

 

5) It had an approachable theme. Hunting, everybody knows what that is. No complex puzzles to solve, no 1000+ hour long single player campaign, no character issues, etc. Just pick some guns, and go out and shoot at wildlife. Hope you get a big one!

 

So with that in mind, I don't think we can blame a company for trying to make money, or for trying to make a good game. I hope ObiWan is a good game, I could care less if it make money. But people make the false assumption that if ObiWan lacks X feature(s) that they want, that just because they will refuse to buy it, the game will fail (and this will be the "pay back" to LEC for releasing a game we hate).

 

Sorry to butt back into the discussion, but I just had to mention that. ; )

 

I'm eager to see how the game turns out, one way or the other.

 

Kurgan

[Wilhuf]

If sales aren't important then why focus on sales at all? Why try to tie an arc of editing and sales together to begin with if sales don't mean squat? Why all the concern with developer time and cost for an editor and it's supposed impact on the bottom line, if at the end of the day, sales don't matter and Obi-Wan is a better game if it ships with an editor?

 

We're on the same side. I think we'd both like to see a high quality game. At least we don't want another Deer Hunter. Watch out for that 12 point dark Jedi buck. It has Force Rake power!

 

I've been hypothesizing that a published editor can help sales. But most importantly, it will make Obi-Wan a better, polished game, regardless of impact on sales.

 

Short of a probability survey you don't really know what impact an editor will have on sales.

 

Just because an editor is important to a few individuals doesn't mean it wont benefit many more beyond those few. Attempts at trivializing these benefits are futile!

 

I wouldn't understimate the impact of 'word of mouth' on the success of a product's sales. By 'word of mouth' I mean the opinions that early adopters (e.g. core gamers) of a technology or product (or in our case, a game) express to their friends and acquaintences. This can in fact have an impact on product sales, especially when there is not a lot of information on a product available. Good word of mouth helps, (e.g. oh man I tried JK and it was great, you should get it') and clearly bad word of mouth is a bad thing™. (e.g., I can't believe how awful Drakan multiplayer was') (No flames please these are hypothetical examples.) What kind of word of mouth are we going to give Obi-Wan when it doesn't ship with an editor or dedicated servers?

 

I also hope LEC can sell millions of copies of Obi-Wan, not just because of the Star Wars license, but because it's a polished feature rich game that caters to core gamers. Features such as editing tools, dedicated server support are good examples. Conversely, I can't say I'd like to see a lot of copies sold if the game is sub-par.

 

Wilhuf

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited February 28, 2000).]

[Guest Darth Kurgan]

What I meant was that to us, the gamers, sales shouldn't matter. Sure it might mean a larger "community" but that's about it. If I was the only person who bought a game and I loved it, I wouldn't have a problem with that (if it was a multiplayer only game, I'd be kinda pissed though).

 

Take a game like Heretic II. It got great reviews, I've seen it, everyone I've talked to that has played it loved it. It's a quality product. For some reason or other (poor marketing?) it didn't make that much money, and was overshadowed by inferior competitors. Sales don't affect the quality of the game. Bad games can sell well if they are marketed better. Good games can have crappy sales. As was correctly stated, editing doesn't increase or decrease sales in any significant way. I want editing just like the rest of you, but it's not the end of the world if it's not there, and it won't mean ObiWan will fail.

 

Kurgan