Can we edit Obi Wan?

[Guest Sebulba_s1]

Can we edit Obi Wan?

 

------------------

Sebulba takes the lead

Squadron1 Homepage

 

[Guest Kurgan]

Yes.

 

Kurgan

[Guest Sebulba_s1]

Ok cooooooooooool

 

------------------

Sebulba takes the lead

Squadron1 Homepage

 

[Guest Jedi-Qui-Gon]

<font color=green6>supposedly it's harder than Jedi Knight, and authors may not be able to make the custom made levels as good as the game's originals.

 

------------------

[Guest Kurgan]

Well that all depends on the would-be editors.

 

3DS Max is a rather expensive program. It's out of reach of probably the average 15 (and under) gamer living at home to raise 3 grand just so he can have a SHOT at editing this game.

 

But, 3DS Max is the standard modeling program in the gaming industry, bar none.

 

So, getting to know how to use it is a skill future game modellers should probably learn how to do anyway. If you go to an academic institution (college, university, etc) then it is possible you can get the discounted version, which runs about $500-600. That's much more reasonable. You can buy Photoshop for that price.

 

The difficulty of the program is all based on the user. Most people I've talked to (not too many) say that 3DS Max takes a long time to master, but someone who was determined could do it, and game developers have figured out how (of course they are on a payroll and a schedule).

 

It is likely that you will not see many user-created levels released for Obi-Wan for some time. Assuming the game does well and establishes a good sized community. You'll probably see at first, the usual skins, textures, script hacks (sort of like the cogs people created for JK/MOTS), sound replacements, and that sort of thing. Piecemeal models like grafting heads on bodies and that sort of thing will probably be next. Maybe you'll see some basic levels then.

 

The direction it goes all depends on the users creating the addons of course. But, on the bright side, this means that you should cut down on the "deluge of crappy first levels" that happens with every other editable game. We'll see how it pans out.

 

One thing that the would-be level/model editors should be working on from day 1 is the LEC plug-ins. That is, we need to somehow figure out what those plug-ins they had did, so we can make our own, or find out what they were, so we can create ones like them. Maybe LEC will be nice enough to "leak" them to us (maybe doubtful).

 

Kurgan

 

 

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

If all things go the JK/MOTS route then you will not need 3DS Max to edit the game because someone will make a level editor like they have for JK. (Jed I would recommend). This is easier to use but still not easy but it is free. But I am guessing we will all have to wait for that to be made if it ever will be... But I hope to start the basic editing as soon as the game comes out!

 

 

------------------

The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

 

[This message has been edited by Jedi Master Xai-Qui (edited June 05, 2000).]

[Guest Orbvs_Terrarvm]

I don't get it. Why does LEC not support the MOD community like id or Valve? There is at least a financial gain for supporting it (more people buying Obiwan to for the vast replay value of different MODs). Let alone a more dedicated LEC customer base.

 

I am definitatly thinking of creating a MOD for Obiwan... wondering if it will be possoble????????

[Guest Heidi Clogs]

I really hope LEC releases some form of free editor, I just love editing jedi knight and unreal T. Hope to release my patch soon just finishing the voices.

 

------------------

Now you will feel the power of my clogs!

[Wilhuf]

LEC are too protective of their property.

 

Shipping Obi-Wan or JK/MotS with an editor would give LEC's legal department heartburn, so they decided against it. Supposedly an editor would make it too easy to produce Star Wars materials that could somehow be sold for profit.

 

The logic is badly flawed. Especially if you consider the 'deluge' of low quality work which could never be sold for any price that would spew out of the user-community in the event that an editor ships.

 

Actually, an editor will not ship with Obi-Wan according to Gamestar magazine. There are probably other preview articles that have said this as well.

 

Support for the online gaming community is really a secondary concern for LEC compared with protecting the Star Wars™ license.

 

The reason that mods were so 'low quality' for JK/MotS to begin with is that no decent tools for editing were immediately available.

 

A difficult-to-use editor for Obi-Wan won't really assure us that quality mods will emerge from the user-community. Although it's true that only those with great patience and persistence will be able to present their work to community.

 

Wilhuf

 

[This message has been edited by Wilhuf (edited June 06, 2000).]

[Guest Orbvs_Terrarvm]

That is a shame. I can understand that LucasArts doesn't want someone to put out a mod where Darth Vader can be seen smoking a doobie but come on!!!!

 

I don't want to sound too negative but I hope LEC delivers on Obiwan becuase I am starting to formulate some opions about how they operate. Believe me, I want them to prove me wrong!!!!

 

But it seems that

1. LEC doesn't care to support their online user community.

2. LEC approaches creating PC games with a console playing frame of mind.

3. LEC thinks that if the game looks good and plays smooth it is worthy of the Star Wars name.

[Guest Kurgan]

Argath, can you, for our benefit, please list some of these freeware programs that will export in a 3ds max readable format?

 

Thanks.

 

LEC isn't going to ship a level editor with ObiWan because that would mean including a copy of 3DS Max with every copy of the game!

 

Kurgan

[Guest Neumi]

I don't think the levels are in 3ds Format, the information about how to put the textures and where to putobjects require more than 3ds-max.

I'm sure ANY 3d editor will do fine to crerate solid levels, but then the model must be converted to OB1 format, textures must be set, active switches and triggers must be set ...

Ok, LEC used 3ds max, but they don't force US to do it.

 

A special level editor for Obi Wan MUST be made.

 

I think LEC will not include a level editor because theymust get permissions from LucasFilm to create new stuff and if THEY give us a editor, it will create problems. Of course, LucasFilm can't say anything against private people doing something like that.

 

[Guest Kurgan]

Well once the game is out, anyone is welcome to try...

 

Kurgan

[Guest Argath]

Excellent post, Neumi. I don't understand what the big deal over what package LEC used to create the levels is, anyway. The only possible signifigance I can come up with is that the level format is similar to an already well documented format like DXF or 3DS, which would make it easier to create an editor. It doesn't mean gamers will ever have to touch 3DS Max to edit Obi-Wan.

 

For example, the games X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter and X-Wing Alliance both used variations of a rather difficult to decipher format called OPT. We eventually discovered that the files were originally created with SGI Open Inventor, and while that did help a bit in figuring out how the files were formatted, it didn't mean everyone was required to go buy an expensive modeling program to create OPTs. Everyone seems to have done fine with the freeware and shareware available around the internet, as many of the new models are as or more complex than the original Totally Games OPTs.

 

For Obi-Wan, I'm hoping the level format is simple enough that it won't take the 2+ years it took the XvT community to get editing going. While looking for patterns in a hex editor and making new discoveries is interesting, it's very time consuming, and much of the would-be community will have already left by the time quality editing is possible.

[Wilhuf]

LEC could release Obi-Wan 3D StudioMax plug-ins, but won't for legal reasons.

 

Of course there's no reason LEC would have to ship a full version of 3DSM just to give users decent editing tools. Plugins for conversion should do the trick.

 

Freeware 'Milkshape' should be able to edit 3ds files.

 

Wilhuf

[Guest Neumi]

maybe the format will be even LESS complicated than JK's. OB1's level engine does not use sectors, only polygons, depending on their angle they are walls, floor, ceilings, ...

I think we even don't have to worry about using convex wall pieces, like in JK.

 

 

I only hope the new level engine and the graphic engine can handle a lot of polygons.

 

i once tried to create a complex MotS level (if I do something, than i do it BIG).

i had a space sation with a round center and a 150 meter tower in the middle. On the floor I wanted to build a small city, but only after a few days of work I saw, the Sith engine couldn't handle the amount of polygons, so I'd quit the project.

 

[Guest Argath]

That would be great. If anything, it would be nice if the levels are in ASCII format like JK's.

[Guest Orbvs_Terrarvm]

If Obi plays great on the net and it is fairly easy to edit I am up for making a mulitplayer mod mainly focusing on team play recreating scenes from the Star Wars movies and books. The maps would be played in rounds where once you die you are out until one side wins and then it begins again.

 

What do you guys think about this?

 

Death Star Escape -(From episode 4 ANH) 1 person plays Obiwan and everyone else plays storm troopers. Obiwan must sneak around the Death Star and disable one of three tractor beams holding the Millenium Falcon. All the storm troopers are armed with guns but Obiwan

only uses the force. People playing Obiwan rotates whenever that player dies. I think 1 Jedi Master vs 15 storm troopers would be a great map!

 

 

[Guest Jedi Kenobi]

Heh, that sounds cool.

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

How many of you people have actually had a go (a proper go) at editing Jedi Knight or MOTS?

I would like to make several points:-

1. Your should not expect quality patches immediatly even if Lucas released an editor it would be unlikely that any good patches as you call it would come out because it takes time for a programmer to adjust to how an editor works and it's limits.

2. JK/MOTS even if made in 3DSMax were exported as scripts. Try opening res2.gob in workpad or notepad. You will find all the files listed. Not as just filenames but of the file contents. Really you did not need an editor at all to do cog scripting notepad is fine, 3do editing can be done in notepad. The only thing that actually needs an editor were the levels. If you used the trial and error method then you could edit the levels with difficulty. This is to show that even though made in 3dsmax they were exported as text based files! If you had 3dsmax you could not edit these files. Only in notepad.

3. There are really good editors for JK/MOTS out there some I shall meantion below:-

Jed - An excellent Level editor Limits r few.

Gobex, Conman - Gob extractors

etc.

4. The likelyhood is that the first patches will be hacks as they are easy to make.

 

Okay I understand that obi-wan may not be cog scripting that you can edit in notepad but this is showing no special editors were needed. But it would be nice if parts of it could be edited in notepad.

I am sorry if I offended anyone but you are going on about 3DSMax! I apologise to anyone I offended.

 

------------------

The truth?

Even Reality does not exist

[Guest Neumi]

1. Copy that

2. That much was allready clear before you mentioned it.

Besides, we don't talk about EDITING levels, but about CREATING levels, so the OB1 format is important, when the level is finished.

3. do you really think we don't know that?

4. yupp

 

 

I'm pretty sure, OB1 will use a better version of COG. That system rocks. I wrote some scripts for the prototype of my new level, and learned that COG is cool. I hope, OB1 will include a similar language.

 

[Guest Kurgan]

I don't know about anyone else, but when I say "editors" I mean level (MAP) editors.

 

A "level" is a jkl file. So I suppose you could call notepad a jkl editor, even though it is not meant expressely for that purpose. In my mind, a level editor is a program made to edit levels (or create them if you like).

 

Examples of level editors for JK/MOTS:

Force Builder

JED

JKEdit

 

Gobex, Matmaster2, conman, bmMut, PuppetJedi, those are editing TOOLS. They do other stuff involved in editing the game, but they don't do levels.

 

I'm not talking about script hacking in notepad or dosedit, or using gob extractors, or exporting mat files.

 

I just mean the levels. The other stuff should be just as easy as it was with JK. ObiWan will have it's own scripting language people can figure out, just like they figured out Cog.

 

Just wanted to get the terminology straight, incase there was some misunderstanding or we're using different words to mean the same thing.

 

Sure, if the files are in ascii, you can probably figure some way to mess around with them by hand. I grant that.

 

I'm more interested in a 3D level building program. And it sounds like our only choice is going to be 3D studio. However, that's just what I think based on what they've told me. You are free to disagree with me if you like, and when the game comes out, we can decide for ourselves what is possible and what isn't (and then only time will tell).

 

And when I say level editing, I really mean "making new maps from scratch." Sorry, force of habit. If I make levels, I call myself a "level editor" not a "level creator" (or "level maker" or whatever). That's just how I use those terms.

 

I'm not trying to squash anyone's hopes of future editing, just not setting my own sites too high, because the info I have at this time isn't too encouraging (to me).

 

Kurgan

[Guest Kurgan]

Oh, another bad habit I picked up (and some others did too) when JK first came out,(not being part of the Quake community or anything):

 

When we say "patches" for JK/MOTS we are really talking about user-created mods.

 

In the usual sense a "patch" is an upgrade released by the game company (or some skilled programmers) in order to fix bugs/problems existing in the game. Sometimes, patches will also add new features (such as in the case of recent UT patches, or Quake2's infamous patches).

 

A patch in the true sense for JK would be the "1.01 update" LEC released to fix some joystick and other issues.

 

A "mod" is anything that modifies the game, and people have their own definitions of what these are, and TC's and PC's, etc...

 

In the past, LEC has usually only released "patches" (in the upgrade sense) to fix bugs in the game. However, in the case of XvT and Outlaws, some major issues that people complained about, or they felt were hurting sales, were addressed. So we can only guess how ObiWan will be.

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited June 16, 2000).]

[Guest Argath]

I just want to know exactly how you can assume 3DS Max could be the only program able the edit the game. Unless the levels themselves can be natively read in 3DS Max or easily converted to a compatible format, the program is worthless. The most likely course of action will be that a level editor will be created, and anyone who has 3DS Max will still be unable to use the program. Going around telling people they need 3D Studio to edit Obi-Wan is extremely inaccurate, because the program is just as worthless as any other application.

 

The only direct impact the development programs have on editors is in the complexity of the file format. Obi-Wan's levels may be easy to decipher ASCII files like JK's, but I seriously doubt it, based on the numerous reports of huge levels. Binary files take up much less space, so I'd assume Obi-Wan's levels will be in a binary format. That doesn't necessarily mean it'll be impossible to create an editor, but it does take a bit more time and skill to find patterns and figure out exactly how the file works.

 

The only bad impact Max could have on Obi-Wan is extremely complex files, which is likely. That doesn't mean you need Max to edit them; it will be just as worthless as every other 3D modeling program. I think LEC meant that Obi-Wan's levels are a complicated format, and they feel the only way people will be able to edit them is through 3DS Max with their plug-ins. That does not mean the program is of any use without those plug-ins.

 

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited June 16, 2000).]

[Guest Jedi Master Xai-Qui]

I really wish you had specified levels.

You can create levels in notepad...but who couls be bothered!

ummm yeah, Yes, Anything that is made in 3d in the game eg, weapon models, player models and levels are made in a program like 3DS Max.

I say like here due to the fact 3do's can be edited in notepad. Basically wireframes would not be much good if the editor could not use a WYSIWYG Program like 3DSMax. Cog's etc and scripting is not a visual object just a set of rules the computer must follow they are therefore made in the same program the engine is made in (C or C++).

 

I am sorry to any editors I may have annoyed in my last post but that message was mainly for any people who have not ventured in to the strange world of game editing.

Neumi or Kurgan I don't know but was any of the EPI:TPM files in a format notepad could read? I could open the files with gobex butdid not check all the files. If not it may be the case that they used 3dsMax to make everything and therefore a special proghram will be needed (as with level editing) To edit it all.

P.s. When I talk about "Editing" I mean all types (weapons, level etc.)

Kurgan how long have you been in the jedi council?

 

------------------

The truth?

Even Reality does not exist