1.03 stab backwards.. ridiculous

[Galadrielle]

Here are my own observations.

• The last 10 games I was in where somoene was winning hands down, it was sabers only, I went into spectator mode to verify what I already found out losing to said player: they kill using backward stab about 9 times out of 10.
  
• Says so right in the manual: you CANNOT BLOCK IT. That's fine, but a shot that does more damage than any other shot that also cannot be blocked?! Who has any reason to use any OTHER attacks?!
  
• I see some poeple just running around backwards blindly, hitting attack, and it amazes me how many kills they DO manage to get, although granted they are being a bit idiotic about it and do not beat everyone.
  
• I myself decided to try using backwards attack whenever i was right next to the opponent. My GOD I was amazed how easy it was to kill people.
  

The fact is clear. The backward's stab needs to be toned down, or made blockable, or both. The facts I point out above make it obvious it's broken.

 

And for the fanboys of said backstab who realize it will ruin their ability to rack up skill-less kills, realize there are many other attacks, or even weapons, for which a few people are good at using it, and can manage to get many kills against you or me using it. But the fact remains there are other people that can defend against such skills. The backstab? No one can play against it except to do it yourself and hope u're the first lucky game feature abuser to land it first.

 

I'd appreciate a response from the developers as to their current opinion on this feature.

[Zek]

You can block it, but it hits so many times in a very short amount of time(also why it does so much damage) that it'll get through your defense real qiuck.

[Scarlet Widow]

Its realistic, if you had a saber go thru your abdomine you're not going to survive it... Its perfect the way it is i think. Yet other moves need to be more powerful just like it, i think in multiplayer every player should be as powerful as the Stormtrooper in single player are. If the blade goes thru them they're dead, same goes for laser blasts.

[Galadrielle]

Originally posted by Scarlet Widow

Its realistic, if you had a saber go thru your abdomine you're not going to survive.

Agreed. But this move is impossible to block before it ever goes through your abdomen? I'm talking about a chance to block such a deadly shot.

 

With an attack that's so deadly, and that cannot even be blocked to boot, people that know better and are hell bent on winning have no reason to use any other move. That's a broken game feature. Moves are supposed to offer advantages, but with other disadvantages. For example: An attack that does more damage, but more chance to get blocked. Or less damage but less chance of getting blocked as well. But GODlike damage with NO chance of being blocked? WHY would you use any other attack if your only goal is to win? You wouldn't. And that's my point. That move is broken.

[Scarlet Widow]

Oh...well yeah i definetly agree there should be a way to block it, just as with any attack.

[ShockV1.89]

Perhaps easier to block and a slower recovery time? I'd be cool with that.

 

The damage should stay close to where it is. I've whacked people with it and they've survived with shields intact. Maybe lower damage a little bit, or lower the number of times it can hit per swing to one per person.

 

ShockV1.89

[NewBJedi]

Uninstall JK2.

 

Remove all directories of JK2.

 

Reinstall JK2.

 

Do not patch.

 

Problem solved.

[Tekkaman Slade]

And have to deal with no 1.02 servers and the DFA?

 

Uninstalling a patch is NOT an excuse for bad game design.

[ShockV1.89]

NewB, wasnt the backstab there before the patch as well? As I understand it, it was. So uninstalling would not help.

 

ShockV1.89

[InfErnO]

Well, the whole thing has something to do with reaction time and skill. Just slow down the game a little more and make the weapons as ineffective as possible, just turn it into a "waggle your saber game", so that even the worst newbie has a chance to win a game by getting a random frags.

[MrCrusher]

I am playing on mostly FFA and Duel NF servers and I do not seem to be having trouble with this attack. I've learned to counter it....

 

The yellow special attack allows you to attack the AssFighters from above, the backstab won't reach this high and there is a nice hang time allowing you to turn and bury your sabre in their neck.

 

Yellow and red stance horizontal slash works when you strafe properly.

 

But mostly keep an eye on who is doing it and hunt them, they are making themselves easy targets.

[snoogs831]

Within an FFA game, there is always going to be a move that someone will whore. And for good reason. If there's a crowd of people, then everyone would do the DFA right into them, that's just how FFA is played. However, I've found that the backstab, or any other "super-move" of sort helps little to those that have no skill.

 

Well, except in 1.03. Where all you have to do is swing your medium saber randomly, or go with Blitzkrieg Blue. Because Red is just useless now.

 

The DFA was fine for dueling because it was so easy to counter. I invited people to do it on me, because I'd just saber them in the head when they were down. Any kind of unblockable move like that is much harder to land on a single person then it is when you're surrounded.

 

Just imagine an idiot running backwards. You'll probably slice his head off before he can get the move going.

 

Desperately hoping for another patch soon,

snoogs831

[striderx2048]

shoot them in the ass or throw your saber at it

[Demise_SOK]

The backstab move was in-game in 1.02 but people rarely did it because regular saber swings did more damage and weren't auto-blocked, therefore the move was risky in the midst of combat.

 

As to how counterable it is, I am finding it very hard to counter with 3-5 people doing it and nothing else constantly in FFA.

 

First I tired just heavy stance swing when someone went into the move, I found myself getting BLOCKED or getting killed by the backstab!

 

I then tried DFA'ing the perpetrator, this is effective but now DFA has to be right on target in order to work, if you miss you will get backstabbed during recovery.

 

I have tried push/pull with some success but need more practice with changes to saber stances. One major problem here is with the damage changes and autoblock it takes alot longer to kill opponents, which gives one-move-wonder players a distinct advantage in allowing them to survive until they can pull of their one-hit move. Using push/pull combined with absorb is probably the most effective way to counter backstab spammers that I have found so far.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but somewhere someone posted that Raven didn't change the damage to this move while changing damage across the board on others, therefore this move is what some could call an 'exploit'.

 

DFA was alot more counterable then this move in my opinion unless someone did it from directly behind you- you could easily dodge it.

[striderx2048]

the anti-saberist guide has the normal damage was change

20-30 for light, 30 for meduim and 60 for heavy

[Scarlet Widow]

Just a few more thoughts..

 

The backstabs are in most cases extremly easy to avoid if you just take the time to learn how...so because of that i think it should be as powerful as it is. Blocking those attacks should be possible i think, but certainly not by auto-matic means. It should be a player-conscious action to block attacks, it would just be too easy that way ..as it already is with just about every attack.

 

So, i think being able to block those attacks (as well as ANY attack) would fix up the balancing, it just needs to be a player-conscious action to do so.

[Halorin]

Backstab is easy to block while you are standing, but when all someone does is go up to you, pull you down, and backstab you before you can blink, how is that counterable. Sooner or later Absorb runs out, drain doesn't work against absorb. It's just a tactic that you can't fully get around. And it shouldn't take that much to get out a manuever that is clearly overpowered and glorified to a point of where it's only logical to utilize it primarily. Either have it take more time to be able to swing after a successful force pull, tone down the distance between someone for a force pull, or reduce the damage. I don't see why force pull knocks people down anyway. That just leads to cheesiness. But hey, I love the game.

[JMKnave]

I've already touched on this point a few times in another thread. The problem is not the backwards stab but the auto-block.

 

Blocking was almost invisible in the first version, 1.03 does a better job of actually portraying the Level 3 blocking when you have points in it and most players welcomed this readily. Before you raise the banner on "down with blocking" let me point this out; at Level 3 defense you SHOULD be able to block almost everything but.... but I do not believe it should be done for you. It should be a conscious effort on the player's part to set up the blocks.

 

Since the autoblock has made it hard for opponents to hit you in the front or sides, players have resorted to running backwards at you. This is an absurd move since noone would do this in real life but it does work and quite well too.

 

If blocking was made manual, where the player would have to face into the swing to block instead of having it done auto for you, then you would see more players going toe to toe instead of front to back.

 

As it is now there are still several tactics left to you to counter this strategy that I have used with good success:

 

a) saberthrow/guns: These range attacks are perfect for hitting your opponent in the back. Your opponent is pretty much defenseless while he's running backwards at you so take advantage of this. Try to maintain your distance from them by backtracking yourself and throw or blast away.

 

b) teach them a lesson: Once you see them backtracking towards you, change to strong style, hop backwards once and swing then immediately perform a DFA forward. They'll think twice about trying it again even if you don't hit.

 

c) pick your shots: Running headfirst into the fray will most certainly end with you dying from this move. STOP, think and keep your distance. Let them come to you and pick your shots. Strong style, back/fwd + attack, works quite well and has good range which helps you keep out of the backwards stab swing area. Practise your dodging... rolls work great with backstabbers... fwd/bwd roll away from the backstab area and use Med style, attack + l/r strafe swings to cut them down. You can string 3-4 of these left to right swings in Med easily and cut them down quick.

 

d) do it yourself: Fight fire with fire. If they try it on you, do it to them. Again, let them come to you backwards, perform a small hop over them and immediately hit back + attack to perform your own backstab.

 

e) Kick: If you don't know how to kick yet, LEARN. Some nf servs have this enabled along with saberthrow but only allow you a few points. My suggestion is use them on jump instead of saberthrow. Running backwards at you is just begging for a kick in the back. 3 times out of 5 you'll even knock them down and they'll be open for a good overhead chop.

 

gl

[striderx2048]

probably you get pull down, because your feet is pulled out from under you and you are dragged,

adding a delay would probably cause problem when your are fighting gunners,

probably making it nesscasy to use pull to cause something to fall down would be good

[JMKnave]

In regards to getting pushed or pulled down; you can counter this move and you don't really even need absorb.

 

How you say? Kick <----

 

Let them push and pull away. Once you're down tap jump quickly and hold down fwd (in the direction of your oncoming opponent). If you do this correctly, you'll get up just as they start their swing and perform a front kick into their chest to knock THEM down and give yourself an opportunity to return the favor.

 

This also works for saberlocks... I usually forgo wasting push or madly button mashing my attack key to win the lock but let my opponent win and take the knockdown. Pulling off this trick not only surprises them but does shield-piercing damage so it's to your advantage to actually take the knockdown and hope they DO run headfirst into your kickout.

[KnightHawk420]

Here's the trick to killing/avoiding backstabbers. Use throw. Spam the throw move on them until they get a new act or die. Avoid being in the middle of 2+ man brawls. Always be mindfull of the guys you see running around backwards. and try to stay away from them if your not wanting to pay attention to them so much. The guys that run backwards should be obvious to kill.

 

I think for the most part this move is fine. It should NOT penetrate 100 shields and 100 health in one touch. If you have very little shields and regardless of health fine let it kill you.

 

What does need to happen to it, is the same thing that happened to the DFA but not quite so much. IN that it's damage arc must be reduced to the tip of the saber, not the sides, or hell even the handle on the front. It needs to be made where you cann't spin around while performing this manuever, and the the manuever has varying degrees of effectiveness. Also like the changes the DFA recieved. For example on more than 1 occasion now, I've been killed 100 health and 100 shields, by a backstaber who I kicked to the ground before they completed the backstab and ran up to kill them while they we're on the ground flat on they're backs, and they're saber kills me. Or the back staber who does his back stab, I run in front of him to kill him, and die by running into his front.

 

This was the same problem with the DFA, it just needs to be made more correct. In that it's damage arc needs to be much shorter, and that it's ability to turn while executing this move be eliminated. It's damage toned down a hair. If they did this, this would no longer be a spam move, but instead of a very hard to pulloff death move. Such as the DFA is now. The DFA now is rather difficult to actually land in anything but mult-person no body sees you coming battles, but on the down side when yo udo eventually land it, it's pretty weak. Otherwise now it's neutered.

[Galadrielle]

One clarification: I only mentioned the patch version because that's the patch I'm making this statement about. I'm not too sure about previous patches, so to avoid confusion I stated it was patch 1.03. It's possible this was a problem on previous versions as well, but I'm avoiding that topic.

[Galadrielle]

One other clarification. For 1v1 duels, it's much less of an issue. I've only got one person to worry about, and so I pick my moments to execute combos and different attacks, very aware of when a backstab could work for my opponent.

 

The time I see this abused the most is FFA's, saber only (which is a fun variant to play, if not for how effective using this backward stab is). You end up in a battle of a few, or even 1 on 1 (not a duel of course), and someone shows up and just starts trying to get the backward stab to kick in .. and when it does, someone dies. That's just not right. It's supposed to be a finishing move when opportunity presents itself on your opponent.. not one that people use against a crowd because they know someone will be screwed by this massively easy to abuse and get great results move.

 

Anyway, interesting discussions by everyone. I'm impressed a lot it didn't turn into a flame war, as that was not my intent. I can't remember the last forum I went to where I was able to express a negative opinion about a game's feature and not get flamed for it. Impressive.

[JMKnave]

There is no need to change the backstab.

 

The only thing you need to do is change is your tactics. The backstab is not a finishing move; it is supposed to be used react to a situation where you have managed to get out of position, either by getting carried away with your attack or bad manouevering on your part, leaving your back exposed. That is when you use backstab... to quickly turn a defenseless position into a surprise attack.

 

What some are asking for is for Raven to tone down the backstab too, which is not necessary. If you get hit once every now and then, consider it bad luck, after all it's just a game. If you're getting killed repeatedly with a backstab then I'm sorry to say but you need to practise your dodging.

 

There is no reason why you would stand there time after time and let yourself be sabered by backstab. The damage it does is justifiable because this is a difficult move to time, since you must hit back + attack while your opponent is behind you, and leaves you quite vulnerable for a long time.

 

The only situation where an opponent would misuse backstab is when you get knocked down and they try for the 1-hit kill. In this position only do you have a valid point since you cannot evade effectively. However, you can still counter re: my prev post on tactics.

[Jellybelly]

I think the backstab is quite well balanced as is, considering the vunerable position Your in when turning Your back on Your opponent.

 

It's benefits are balanced by it's downfalls...I think it's good as is.

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly