Xzzy Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 > I cant think of one thing in JK2 that is classified as > "undefendable" Shades of grey man, learn to think in it. Is someone spamming backstab impossible to stop? No, I didn't say that. Is somone spamming backstab a pain in the ass? Most definetly. With the massive aura of doom surrounding a saber in the backstab animation, with the way it is impossible to block, with the amount of damage it does, it is effectively undefensible. There should be a better way of doing it; either by making other attacks more enticing to a would-be spammer, or kicking backstab in the balls such that it's more dangerous than it is useful. Is it impossible to dodge a thrown light saber? No, of course not. However once it's in the air, it is impossible to effect with force push, you can't attack the guy throwing it or else he arcs the saber into your ass, all you can do is scramble to get out of the way. Defense isn't JUST about not getting hurt you know. It also involves turning an attack against you into a counter attack. And certain aspects of jk2 melee simply don't allow that, it's either run like a girl or die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knyte Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Call me a "noob" or whatever you like if you wish, but what the hell is "aura of doom" I mustve missed that force power in the manual. The point of my posting was NOT to get into a tactical argument about what moves do what, my point was that you should just enjoy the game as it is provided and sharpen your skills on what is in front of you, not demand that they change the game because you think it could be better some other way. Again I have nothing but respect for Artifex, Im just saying the entire idea of rebuilding the game to his ideals and standards isnt feasible. Ive read every word on his site and he does have some good insight and tips, but his playing style is totally different from mine and Im sure 30,000+ other people as well and the game is designed around THAT idea, that people of varying skill levels and styles should be able to play it and enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blank1234 Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 I posted this in the valley of jedi thread, I'll just recap it here. 1. Make Special moves cost force (IE, light lunge, medium/strong "finisher", the backstabs)... something like 2x the cost of a flipkick or something similiar. Then, remove the lag period after the move (the one where you're stuck in the backstab 'pose' for a good second or two, where you spin around and trip anyone close close). Leave DFA lag time on. This stops spamming of special moves constantly, since they cost force. The lag time after the moves is usually what kills guys, since that last frame of animation seems to hit multiple times... at the very least, it doesn't leave that nearly as open as it seems. I can count on one hand the number of times I've hit with the medium finisher in the air... but I can't even begin to guess how many times I've impaled myself on that move after it's landed Why the move has that huge delay, I have no idea. 2. Make saber throw more powerful, but have it cost like half or a third of your force. In single play, you can keep your saber spinning even if it hits, for multiple hits of damage (atleast Tavion did that to me, owie). Let it be knocked away and have a second or two recovery time before you can force pull it back into your hand. This does 2 things... it makes sabers useful vrs gun users with explosive shots (doing 30 damage per throw doesn't match up to the 80+ damage you'll be receiving) and it adds another level of force management. Should you try to end a duel with saber throw? Go for a grip? Save for heal? etc. 3. Heal/drain un-nerfafied Artifex's suggestion for these abilities works for me. Blank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradivh Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 knyte: Do you play a lot of saber duels? I'd like to try and show you what we're all talking about, instead of debating it stupidly on these forums. You free for a game in the next few hours? I can probably create a private duel server any time between now and 6:00, or between 7:30 and 11 (Eastern Daylight time). It'd be a good-humored match. I won't behave like an ass. Should be an interesting fight. - Blind Moradin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knyte Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 Apparently Im not getting my point across. I couldnt care less if you were the Bruce Lee of the Jedi Knight world, your dueling means absolutely nothing to me. You could be the grand champion of the dueling world and all of the 5 people who could remember your REAL name Im sure would sing praises and do rain dances in your honor but that wouldnt affect my life in the slightest, tiniest, grain of a salt size bit. My point, is that its a game, and it will never be anything but a game. Yes, I play alot of saber duels, yes I win most of them, do I expect to win ALL of them? No. Will I be crushed and retreat into my dark place inside my mind if I lose one? No. Do I have a few free hours to kill in the middle of my day (at work) to play games with you so you can prove your stupid point that you play WAY more than I do, NO. My point is that you should be happy with the game as the people who are making it for the consumer intend it to be. Ill go back to my first post, you want a hand tailored Jedi Knight II, pick up the editing tools and mod yourself one, in fact, when you do make one, send it to me, Ill play it, Im sure it would be interesting to check out once or twice, but ya know what I probably wont like it all that much, not because its not well done, or fun to play, but because its YOUR version and not mine. Thats why the developers release editiing tools guys, so you can change the game to your standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShogunBlade Posted May 23, 2002 Share Posted May 23, 2002 ok bring back the yellow stance.. slow down the blue.. all specials are no longer aimable once executed.. if countered take double damage.. fix the collision mapping and that would do it.. forget force powered specials.. forget nerfing anymore moves.. this game has been nerfed enough.. with those things in mind.. you will no longer have ass fighters or skilless spammers of one move.. because if they fail to hit they could in turn loose the match due to stupidity and lameness it would also make using all stances a must.. oh and decrease blocking to 45 degrees from the center of your front not the lame ass 180.. also.. slow down the back peddaling... no freekin way can someone run backwards as fast as they can run forwards.. so why have it.. it keeps people like Freezer from running lamely using taunts like an idiot just so he can refuse to engage and piss other players off.. yeah he is a pain.. but alas, i do not think raven supports this project anymore so the proposed new patch dealie will never happen.. someone will have to make a mod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradivh Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 knyte: What's with the rude tone? You seem to have a problem with our constructive criticism, and when I offer to show you what a game imbalance is (what this thread's about), you freak out and go on a rant about dark places and Bruce Lee and how you're too busy (at work! OOO!!!) to play me at some point tonight. Take a pill man. Get over yourself. I wasn't even challenging you really, and I'm probably not that much better than you anyways, if at all. It was a friendly invitation. Don't be such a judgemental little ass. I could write a speech justifying my desire to understand the game and make helpful suggestions, how I have every respect for the designers, but frankly I don't think you're worth it. Stop acting like a troll, and we'll talk. Hehehe... Bruce Lee... Originally posted by ShogunBlade also.. slow down the back peddaling... no freekin way can someone run backwards as fast as they can run forwards.. so why have it.. it keeps people like Freezer from running lamely using taunts like an idiot just so he can refuse to engage and piss other players off.. yeah he is a pain.. Yeah, I've been wanting that for a LONG time. But somehow I doubt Raven's gonna do it. All the hardcore gunfighters and CTF players would probably never forgive em.but alas, i do not think raven supports this project anymore so the proposed new patch dealie will never happen.. someone will have to make a mod Hope you're wrong. Last I checked there was no word either way. You hear something I didn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravioli Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 4) Any apponents not using a lightsaber should take 150% damage from saber hits, because of their reduced ability to block. That ought to help even the score between gunfighters and saberists. Have you ever played on a Mercs vs. Jedi server? Jedi players almost always have the upperhand. There's no need to make being a non-jedi less appealing than it already is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galakgorr Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Problem is, even if there was a casting delay of about 5-10 seconds, a good player could still snipe his opponent almost every time he tries to do something interesting, like a special move. So there'd still be about 3-10 saber throws every game. Well, obviously there will still be throws in a match. But with a delay, there will be less. Plus, if someone screws up with a throw, the other player can charge them. In 1.02 the bastards could throw all they wanted, but I'd rush them like a psychopath and beat them with heavy swings. Perhaps a player would move slightly more slowly while his saber is spinning in mid-air? In addition to a delay, the move would be risky (because another player could charge you if you miss with the outgoing saber) but worthwhile if it did solid damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluezman Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 knyte: agree with Moravidh that you are being rude. There is no need to do that. I think he wasn't being ironic (this time ) but simply friendly. Apparently Im not getting my point across. I think I see what you mean. Why bother about a silly video game, take it as it is and don't bitch about the designers not having read the minds of every individual player and taylor gameplay to everyone's individual needs. However, this is not exactly our point here. It is not *our opinion* about gameplay against *Raven's opinion* about gameplay. It must be in Raven's interest to create a balanced game with a consistent ruleset that is suitable for competitive gameplay. Don't you think that Raven would highly appreciate when players use JK2 for playing in ladders and things like that? Sure would increase their sales by far in the long run. As someone pointed out already, this is why games like chess are still being played, it is balanced and has a consistent ruleset. Also, discussing the ruleset and suggesting minor changes result from the love of the game, not from whining about not succeeding at it. Just think about the endless discussions about baseball rules. Do they occur because people don't like the game? "They should've made that baseball thing more like the way I would have done it." Nah, it's about balance and keeping the game exciting to play (and watch). What maybe bothers you or "clouds your view" is that the comments on this forum sometimes sort of get mixed: on the one hand you have suggestions for balancing gameplay by doing minor changes, on the other hand people loving game design also suggest "new features" like "wouldn't it be cool to have this and that". Don't get this wrong, this is not whining! Also keep in mind: people still are playing the game. They are not "being crushed and retreating into a dark place inside their mind if they lose one duel". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knyte Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Im not trying to be indignant or a jerk. Im trying to make the point that trying to get game designers/producers to change a game from a broad skill/style system of play to a streamline, competitive level only system is just not feasible. Sure, the people who were good enough to play at that level would enjoy it, but sadly and truthfully, the majority of people playing games on the internet just down right suck. Moradivh if I in some way offended you I apologize, if you re-read your own post you could see how I misinterpreted what you were saying as "Im better than you and Ill show you" if thats not whats intended then I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knyte Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 PS, there is no "dark place inside my mind" it was a joke, and I thought the "Bruce Lee of Jedi Knight" was freakin hilarious personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluezman Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Im not trying to be indignant or a jerk.Very good. I am sure, that you really aren't. Im trying to make the point that trying to get game designers/producers to change a game from a broad skill/style system of play to a streamline, competitive level only system is just not feasible. Sure, the people who were good enough to play at that level would enjoy it, but sadly and truthfully, the majority of people playing games on the internet just down right suck. So here's where we disagree. A game that can be played on a competitive level is no game that can be enjoyed by hardcore gamers ONLY. There's no contradiction between -quote-broad skill/style system of play and streamline, competitive level only system. If it suits competitive play, it is also more fun for the average gamer. Not only good players would enjoy it more, also average gamers would. (Well, unless they were spamming unbalanced moves and now find out that they are not winning as easily anymore) Just like baseball: you can play it and have fun with it even if you downright suck at it (I know what I'm talking about, I do it. Germans and Baseball, lol ) You are probably right that a gamer that sucks wouldn't be able to distinguish a well balanced game from a not so well balanced game, so the additional effort would serve good players more than bad players. But still, in the long run, Raven would benefit from it, since a game that's played in ladders ond so forth would in the long run increase their sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempest8008 Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by knyte ...Im not trying to be indignant or a jerk. Im trying to make the point that trying to get game designers/producers to change a game from a broad skill/style system of play to a streamline, competitive level only system is just not feasible... Knyte, If you think the designers of games don't listen to the players and PURCHASERS of the games, think again, my friend. Our individual voices may be feeble, but when hundreds if not thousands of people find a particular point about an otherwise fun and enjoyable game causes the gameplay to degrade, and they complain, you can be guaranteed that the Designers WILL do something about it...for nothing else than to ensure the player buys the NEXT game they make. We here, on this forum and others, represent the COMMUNITY of JK2 players. We play the game, we have a lot of fun playing it, we gripe about what we don't like, we cheer what we DO like. Others like ArtifeX treat the game more seriously, by actively trying to get the Designers to listen to the complaints. And ArtifeX tries to get others to do the same, and to agree/disagree with him as they will. In this manner, we DO seek to influence which direction the next patch will take, or even IF one will be produced, but I definately don't consider it a waste of time. You're very vehement about us spending our time discussing the game and talking about changes we'd like to see. Just curious why you don't want us asking Raven to do more work...? Hey, are you a Raven software engineer???!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradivh Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by knyte Im trying to make the point that trying to get game designers/producers to change a game from a broad skill/style system of play to a streamline, competitive level only system is just not feasible. Sure it's feasible. Not easy, but Raven's about 75-90% there already. There's plenty of tactics even at the highest level of play in this game, more than any other online swordfighting game, to my knowledge. Raven just needs to do a tiny bit of tweaking to a couple of moves, and then they'll ALL be universally effective. Granted there's a lot of different expectations for this game, which vary depending on how you play (CTF, FFA, teams, duels, saberists, gunners, mercs, etc.). ArtifeX, for instance, is mainly a saber duelist (probably one of the best out there) which is why this thread is focused on saber/force adjustments. And his suggestions are VERY sophisticated, but that doesn't mean the game would be ruined for average players if Raven took his advice. The newbies probably wouldn't even notice a difference, except that skilled players might appear to have a bit more finesse when they terrorized them. If you think one of our saber fixes would ruin another game type like CTF, or somehow hurt the purity of "newbie fights," then by all means call us out and cite examples. I for one don't want the game to suck for newbies, since they're like 99% of the game's population, and occasionally can grow to be good players. But I DO want the game to remain deep and interesting even at the highest level of play. And I think Raven wants that to, as their last patch proved that they were perfectionists who wanted the game as high-quality as possible (the people who hated 1.03 will strongly disagree with me here, but whatever). My only worry is that Raven's too occupied with other projects to fine-tune this game any more. But we don't know that for sure, and I like discussing it anyhow, so I'll remain optimistic. If you want, I can literally show you the moves that need to be fixed, and why they're annoying enough to make us whine about them on these forums. But this is the last time I'm offering. - Blind Moradin moradin@rogers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaSyKiLL Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Originally posted by tempest8008 If you think the designers of games don't listen to the players and PURCHASERS of the games, think again, my friend. That might be true but getting the publisher to agree to patch or pay the designers to make a new patch is a whole different story. There are many games out there that were killed because of lack of support even amid thousands of complaints. Red Faction being a recent one. There was thousands of complaints on thier forums with out even a response from Volition inc. Actually there was a response, they closed the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Shaft Posted May 24, 2002 Share Posted May 24, 2002 Well, this thread is getting long and monotonous, but I have to give my two cents two, after reading everything: Firstly, I must say that Artifex's comments are mostly true. When i first read his site, I tried to convince myself that he was wrong, that there was some otherway, that none of the stances were nerfed or had moves that were spammed. But I was wrong, in the end. His ideas are good, and are a step towards creating a better game. To those opposed to making criticisms, or believing that the designers won't listen -- well maybe you're right, but you could be wrong. It's funny how this forum has turned out. If any of you are familiar with a game called Starfleet Command 2: Empires at War, designed by Taldren, you'd know what I'm talking about. The designers there have been dealing with a two year headache now, of people decrying changes, however, it's because of this that the game has become much better. The way I see it, games become much better over time. But the only way it can become better is through constructive criticism. Better means something that unifies the community, and gets rid of something like 1.02 vs. 1.03 servers. A few things that I felt snub the game pretty much line up with Artifex's ideas. And though I'm sure the lot of you will probably just browse my post, skip it, or never read it, I like to type, so here it goes. Besides the saber difficulties that everyone has, the one problem I have with is walking backwards. To clarify -- have you ever notices that when someone runs backwards or backtracks, and you chase them, you can't catch up, or you at least can barely do it? I feel this really ruins gameplay. Based on my experiences, there are a lot of just small things that bother me. When I played my brother once, I had to chase him a great deal, because he likes to annoy me. In the end, I'm directly behind him, I use throw my burning sword of plasma, unabated, into his back. This does a measely 30 points. Brother turns around with rocket launcher to retaliate, goodbye me. Another issue I have is when dealing with gunners. One of my fervent hopes for this game would that it would surpass Jedi Knight's biggest flaw... the ability for a saberist to take on gunners. However, I find that as long as someone has a decent gun with enough ammo, that even at point blank range I cannot overtake the person. I swing, I'll die. And since a person can run backwards almost as or just as quickly as I can run foward, it's a lost cause, I can get beaten easily. Of course, at the end of this, you ask what the point of my bantering is, it only mimics what 30 other posts say. I guess the point is to show that it's not just Artifex or a handful of idiots who encounter small things that make the game repetitive and slightly shallow. One hit kill ideas don't really work in the end. One idea I always liked would be to handle a players defense values differently. For instance. The way I see it, if I can walk into a wall and rip right through it with my saber all the time, then when it hits a human, who is weaker than a wall by the way, he should die. To solve it, I think it would be good to put a player's defense to zero when a saber is not there. This gives gunners a heads-up as to what they're doing. Right now, human players often use sabers when up close, get bored because it's damage values are pretty shoddy, then switch to a gun. They know that my saber throw is wimpy compared to their flechette or their rocket launcher. So who cares? When the saber is on, however, values go up, and damage against other sabers is reduced, pending a person doesn't turn his back. An old game like Team Fortress Classic, has this feature. A spy, using a knife, can kill any person instantly, if he takes his knife and hits the person in the back. Alright, this post is too long, I hope I don't annoy anyone. Have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradivh Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 Doctor Shaft: Heheheh.... good speech. Funny. Notice my list at the top of this page? I offered a solution to this very thing. Basically I suggested saber swings do 150-200% the damage they do now (not counting special moves). And on top of that, I advised they do 150% damage to anyone who doesn't have a saber to defend themselves. With this system, your gunslinging bro' would take about 75 damage to your average saber swing, making it an effective close-range weapon. The only real complaint I've heard about this was from gravioli. He said that in "Mercs VS Jedi" servers, the lightsaber already has the upper hand against the gun, and my system would screw up things totally. I don't remember hearing about Merc Vs Jedi before, never played it. I assume one team is full-force Jedi and the other is no-force gunfighters. That'd be a cool concept... something I'd play if it was balanced well enough. But if my suggestions are bad for that one, teeny little mod server, then I'm sorry but I just don't give a crap. I'd rather see the game balanced for the other 99% of servers, all the FFA and CTF games where people with sabers get annihilated. Of course, I doubt MY fix is the ultimate solution. It's just one idea, and I haven't heard many others yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecktar Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 You wont belive it "Anti- one" But I was thinking the same thing only heavy was dual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSauronx Posted May 25, 2002 Share Posted May 25, 2002 First, Im not reading all the other posts so if I repeat something thats been said as an idea/suggestion, gimme a break, Im lazy ok. Second, heres what I think after reading what Artifex posted... Its obvious he has alot of free time to figure such things out, way too much, get a life man Onto sabers. I dont think Raven can pull off the two-bladed or dual saber ideas. Just like that, I dont think they can, for this reason: What kind of team that COULD implement it (unless its almost impossibly difficult) would EVER put the effort into making a game so based on saber combat, that after Episode I with Darth Maul they would neglect to add at least a double-bladed saber mode. Just think about it, the discussion is going on..."so guys, what do you think people would like for saber combat, something to really blow em away in comparison to Dark Forces 2" hmm "another view, to make the fighting easier and more effective" "how about a bunch of moves, instead of just...3" "oh I know, different styles, fast slow medium, add some variety so that they share basic moves, and each have their own special moves" "oh guys, common, didn't you see Phantom Menace? We need a double-bladed lightsaber guys" and everyone stared at him...because hey, who the hell wants a lightsaber with two blades? what, everyone does? well ****, who woulda guessed? So, either they can't, or it was possible with a very very large amount of work to make it do-able and they got lazy about it. Not that Im complaining. Hell, I was ecstatic when I got the lightsaber, its great, but not all it could be. Anyway, I think most of his points sound like good ideas. I havent played quite enough online to be sure about all of them, but many of them I do know would make it a much more balanced game. Most of what I notice is in the force power area. I know the force is supposed to be awesome...but common. Drain is certainly too powerful, the saber throw in no force games is just ridiculous, and you shouldnt need the force to do acrobatics like wall jumping. Oh, and maybe itd be cool if Mind trick made you see other people attacking you or dazed you out somehow instead of just making someone invisible...just a thought. And if Raven doesnt kick in with the radical changes, im going to lend whatever support I can to the Kaiburr Saga, which seems to hope to add duel and double bladed saber modes into a mod. (note, me supporting them means reloading the web page multiple times a day until something is released...) Anyway, to end my rambling (supposing you havent skipped it anyway) i shall say that laser swords f'in rock. xSauronx Kiss her where it smells: take her to New Jersey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ono-Sendai Posted May 26, 2002 Share Posted May 26, 2002 Originally posted by ArtifeX Ono: "(strangle)...I'm just tryin' to help!...(strangle)" -- Lando LoL! Ironic and true. Lando's the best (my favorite) character in the Star Wars continuum. The only model worth using in the game... Ono-Sendai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallory Ringess Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 Here's a suggestion for the next patch which while it won't stop pull/backstabit will make it more dangerous and help to balance light/dark force powers. It's simple really. You can only use one force power at a time (with possible exeption of jump). If there is also a reactivation delay on absorb then pull backstab becomes much more dangerous to execute as you are open to force attacks yourself. And as to everyone who tells you not to complain about pull/backstab just use absorb yes it works but it is the only way I've found to counter it. Rage will stop you being killed but if your opponent survives your rage then you're dead. There is a huge unbalance in the game partly the power of the backstab moves but also that light is so much more powerful than dark to the point that dark is almost completely useless. BRING BACK THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petezilla Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 I agree with you mallory while the light side has a counter to pullers(which combined with guns is a deadly technique) the dark side has not. Dark rage is probably the most useless power in the entire game this should really be upgraded or changed into a whole new power that counters absorb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cartman-SRK Posted May 28, 2002 Share Posted May 28, 2002 I never thought the dark side became weaker than the light...I acctualy feel like both are equal now. I still use the Dark force powers, I use grip and drain (I agree that the dark rage sucks ass), and if the force points are left I will drop them in to Lighting. I have not had to worry about the whole mind trick, for one reason only, if they use the mind trick on you, just keep moving, make erratic pattern moves...they almost always miss with the first strike that they can use on you when you do that. then you can counter attack, with any force power you want, or just saber them to death. Or maybe I am just lucky, and am realy good ant getting people to think I am going one way and I end up going the other. And to the people that think the light side is better than the dark side..."I find your Lack of Faith Disturbing" and "difficult to see the Dark Side is" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petezilla Posted May 29, 2002 Share Posted May 29, 2002 I havent got problems either but it seems clear to me you havent fought really strong opponents yet who use absorb and guns. oh and mindtrick is indeed worthless for attack but for running away it is exellent(i hate runners). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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