Dear Raven, a block key for lightsabers?

[Inter]

Dear Raven, for the lightsaber, why is a block key a dumb idea?

 

 

Turn up the gas..let the flaming commence.

 

But first - why not? A key that puts you in block mode. Everyone wants duels to be more like the movies, in other words, swing, block, swing, block, etc etc.

 

Here are my thoughts:

 

1. There is still a very small element of autoblocking, but damage can still get through fairly easily, and of course it depends on the force level you have for defence.

 

When the block is pressed, you're pretty much as the autoblock is now - maybe stronger head-on.

 

2. If you don't block, the attacking blow is very much more effective against you - this will perhaps go towards the discouragement of those people who simply play 'Track & Field' (showing my age) and always whirl around like a loony - just going 'tap, tap, tap, tap,' all the time.

 

3. You can only walk when the block key is pressed, this prevents people on free for all or in the duel just running scared in a constant state of defence, playing the clock.

 

I think this would be very popular with the blaster-lobby (note I say blasters) - since it would mean having a pot-shot in ffa would actually be worth it!! It would perhaps create stand-offs, and it would be up to the saberist to stand his/her ground and block - like they do in the films, or (like Obi-wan and Qui-gon at the start of Phantom menace when facing destroyers) make a force speed dash for it!

Either way, it would go towards stopping this terrible situation in FFA where everyone is just running around with sabers out - knowing they are pretty much invicible to medium/long range blaster fire.

 

This would also give 2 very different strategies of playing a duel

a) the high speed - don't block at all but rather dodge in coming blows - pretty much as is today (not pretty but better since the patch).

b) the blocking low speed - pretty much how they move in the films.

 

4. Lastly, and I know what you're thinking - there is some kind of random delay, (say between 0.50 and 2 seconds) until the block gains effectiveness after a swing. This prevents simply tapping 'swing-block-swing-block-swing-block etc' and makes the whole thing less robotic.

 

Okay, I'm done - and if you want to flame these suggestions, go ahead! But please be constructive. If you just want to say '..this is stoopid cuz it makes more work for us' well, er, that's the idea. I just think the lightsaber - especially in ffa, is a little too convenient **I mean to use - NOT to perfect**.

 

I'm sure Raven thought about a block key, so I hope they can tell me why it wasn't practical, if they do, I will consider this post shot down in flames and drop the whole idea!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-P

[Boreas]

That would kick ass!

[Falkentyne]

I went ahead and forwarded it to Annette at Ravensoft. Sounds like a good idea. I kept your post intact so everyone knows who posted the idea. Not sure if it should be a server side option or not, though.

[Inter]

Falkentyne - thanks for your trouble!

 

Even if this is rejected outright, it's great developers give the opportunity for people to kick about an idea, even if it is out of the nearest window!

 

Oh - One last thing for Annette at Ravensoft, maybe the block function could be a style of fighting - a fourth style? When the block key is pressed, a fourth colour appears and you can block as I mentioned - but have very limited swing capacity as well.

 

The only problem with this approach is that it would be too slow to cycle through the styles when you see a blaster shot coming your way - so it would maybe have to be a toggle on/off outside the 3 other 'offensive' styles?

 

Sorry to be a pain in the wotsit but - I'll leave other ideas for possible feedback on this thread!

 

Cheers!

[Avalon]

My main gripe about a block key - whether it's the type you suggest or the type that's been suggested in other threads (where there's absolutely no blocking at all unless you hit the key) - is lag would be a serious issue. With over half of the players being on dialup, this would be a bit of a problem. Though a dialup user (or any other lagger) may believe they had hit block before the blow had been struck, latency issues might cause the block to be delayed longer than expected, or the block might not even be registered as having been pushed at all (as is the trouble with stances - if your ping is above 350 or so, sometimes when you hit the stance key your stance will not change).

 

With saber fighting as fast as it is now, I could see many dialup players wailing in misery as they're killed again and again because of a half-second lag in their block, while broadband users dominate the server.

 

Apart from this, I really think it would be a pretty good idea. It would add another level of strategy to the game. If only lag weren't an issue..

[Peeling]

The whole point of blocking blaster fire is that it's somehow "intuitive" - you're using the force to predict and block something you couldn't possibly react to. In the absence of this ability (for the vast majority of the player base who aren't, in fact, Jedi), "autoblock" is the closest we can get. I don't want to have to walk around in block mode to avoid being picked off by a sniper two miles away. If that sniper wants to kill me he's going to have to work at it - either by shooting me in the back or waiting until I become vulnerable during a fight. Surely that's not too much to ask? There's already one gun you can't fight effectively with the sabre - do you really want to add all the rest of the guns to that category? How much fun is the "Jedi Master" game going to be if the sabre-wielder has to walk all the time to avoid getting creamed?

 

This is a MAJOR balance issue we're discussing. I don't think it would kick ass so much as BE ass.

[Inter]

Avalon raises an excellent point and I can't argue with that - except to say that if they have problems on that scale, they will have them regardless they are blocking or being offensive...

;-)

 

To try to answer Peeling, all I can say is that 'balance' is exactly what I had in mind.

 

Saberists are too protected in ffa, and the game is about guns as well. I feel that the most ambiguous force points in the game is saber defence- since you don;t know what is going on - is blue really better than yellow etc etc. I imagine a red stance with wonderful blocking potential, but with the limitations to boot. Also, if you aint blocking, you should really be on the move anyway- so don't worry about the snipers!

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[C'jais]

Great idea.

 

And I don't think the lag problem would be that much worse than it was in 1.02 where you hardly ever blocked at all, and if you did, it was pure luck...

Before the patch, and after, we see this "jousting" thing going on, something *I* would like to eliminate.

 

I'm all for slowing the saber fights down when they should i.e. the duels.

 

Perhaps make it so that a virtually un-skilled jedi using his lightsaber couldn't move any faster than the current walk rate, but with increasing force points in saber defence, we see the sort of thing the cool jedis do in the movies: jogging steadily ahead and deflecting blaster shots.

 

At any rate, I'd rather see this idea implemented than seeing the wild swing fest it is now, IMHO.

[Jellybelly]

There already is a manual block feature built into the game. However, it seems to be usable in singleplayer only at the moment.

 

Activate cheatmode (HelpUsObi 1) in console and write g_saberautoblocking 0 (default 1 = On).

 

This turns autoblocking off and will allow You to bind a key to blocking by writing bind X +block (X = Key of Your choise) in console.

 

Pressing this key will allow You to block. However, the nice trick is You can no longer block and attack at the same time.

 

Load up a singleplayer sabercombat scenario and try for Yourself.

 

I think this feature would contribute greatly to the game if implemented in multiplayer as a serverside option.

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

[C'jais]

Thanks man!

 

I'm gonna try this RIGHT now!

[MonKey-turD]

i reckon that it would be awesome if they somehow got the single player speed effect into multiplayer

 

i was think about this

and while i aren't a programmer, you could have 2 basic levels 1 for normal speed and another for faster speed, people in the faster speed would see everything slower, the people in the normal speed would see everything normal cos they are moving at a slow speed so they would see other slow movers at what looks to be normal speed, but the people on the faster level see the slower people at a slower rate

 

something like that

it would be AWESOME if it actually worked

they could sell it to the matrix game people ( if there is one) for a ton

[Inter]

*bump*

 

ooookaayy - nice but unfeasible I think - unless people could play at different rates in time

nice - but it maybe a bit tricky. ;-D

 

Anyone else for a block key?

[Ko'or Oragahn]

If such a feature has to be added to the game, just don't forget one thing :

 

 

Put it client side with the option auto-blocking ON/OFF please !

[Scarlet Widow]

Manual blocking would be great, thats the same idea i had for a while! i think that alone would fix most of the saber combat issues as well.

[Sam_P]

Great idea, but no one has mentioned this. And I perceive this to be my biggest gripe with a possible implementation.

 

Its is with movement. As it is, while moving in a battle using W-S-A-D my fingers become uncomfortable when having to hold Ctrl, which is binded to my secondary fire. This would be a potential problem in that it restricts physical movement of a player's hand. Just a thought.

 

Holding Block while moving frantically could become very uncomfortable indeed.

[Inter]

my thoughts too - that's why I wondered if the key acting as a toggle would be possible, ie block mode on or off all the time, rather than a 'on as long as the key is pressed' deal

 

maybe the styles of saber could have some kind of highlighting to show if block is switched on or off?

[Inter]

hmm - on second thoughts- forget that - a 'on as long as the key is pressed' is the only way to go - since in saber combat it will be a more natural method...In the heat of a duel, or when deciding to dodge blows by running (see my first post if you don't know what Im talking about ;-) ) you don't want to be worrying if block is 'on' or 'off' as a toggle mode...

[Jellybelly]

Just for the record, the method I mentioned above (which already is implementes in singleplayer) is not using toggle mode.

 

As long as You hold Your "block" key down You will block attacks made at You, but You can't make any attacks Yourself while pressing it.

 

You can only attack while the "block" key is not pressed.

 

I find it works pretty good, and adds more control to the game.

 

Cheers

 

Jellybelly

[Falkentyne]

Sorry for taking so long to get back here.

 

Unfortunately, my email "bounced" to annette..apparently her email is changed. Not sure why, so Raven got nothing from this

 

I'll try emailing www@ravensoft.com

 

However, I suggest one of you guys, who think this is a decent idea, also try emailing them too.

[Dentalplan]

Here is a sensible compromise:

 

What if autoblocking requires force? Lets say if each time you block a blaster shot or saber swing it uses a certain amount of force. That would reflect the jedi using the force for predictive effect.

 

If you are manual blocking, however, this doesn't use force. The jedi is depending on his normal senses to defend himself far more, so his/her force meter would remain untouched.

 

This means that being sniped at won't be so much of a problem. A newbie will be unable to defend against blasters, but an experience player could press block after the first hit. It would however require a conscious decision, and if a jedi has been over using the force, you would be likely to score a bit of damage. Also it means dial-up players will have a margin of error.

 

So, what do you all think?

[C'jais]

Dentalplan: Great idea!!!!

 

I played a lil' singleplayer with the blocking key (thanks to jellybelly!) and i must say that if you bind it to a comfortable key (I have it bound to my thumb button on my mouse), i have no problem with using it. The idea is that it is tiresome to expect attacks all the time, and therefore you don't try to block attacks all the time (less straining on your finger). If you try to do it all time, you WILL get tired and it's your own fault. Dentalplan's excellent idea only adds to this.

 

PLease, whoever is emailing this idea, include dentalplans idea, this should solve any remaining problems.

 

Lag is always a problem of course, but the idea with using force takes something off it.

[????]

Very good idea, but should this key block ALL attacks?

[Bill_st]

I think overall it is a very good idea.. the amount of autoblocking introduced by the infamous 1.03 patch has definitely hurt gameplay IMHO.. and forced many people to resort to backstabbing as the only way to get kills with the saber.

 

Still, I think you should clearly differenciate between blocking sabers and deflecting shots.. if tapping block would make you walk slower, and you could only deflect shots while blocking, there is no way you can try to kill a a gun-wh.. gun-wielder , so I think shots should still be autoblocked without using it..

 

From a HW point of view it can be tricky also.. Consider most keyboards (at least non-USB) have problems when you try to hit several keys at the same time.. you have 1-2 keys for moving pressed most of the time, when you are blocking you are pressing a third (if you can't/don't want to bind it to a mouse key) .. that leaves you only one more key that could be more or less reliably pressed without "saturating" the keyboard.. I may be wrong about this, but I bet some people could get into problems (any "miss" hitting two keys accidentally would result in keys not being registered).

 

Don't get me wrong though, I like the idea of turning saber fights into a more cinematic experience all the way, but as someone put out, this would have a major impact on the balance of the game.. even if done correctly it would certainly piss off many people; if not, it could be the last of a string of changes that would make this game almost unrecognizable from 1.02 (in a bad sense)..

[Inter]

Good points. I think that to keep the autoblock for incoming projectiles rather than sabers is an excellent idea, but how would they programme the difference?

 

But you have pointed out my reason for starting this thread:

 

I really isn't anything to do with a block key - it is about, as Bill_st put it, making duelling a more cinematic experience.

 

Maybe - maybe that should have been the title to this thread...

 

It is just that I, amongst others, saw the block key as a means to an end in this question.

 

I know lots of people love running around like their backside is on fire, and I am not going to say that they are wrong.

 

Thanks to great feedback in this thread, I would like to repeat myself adding what you guys think from the first post:

 

I want two styles - people running around with a mediocre autoblock, and slow steady swordsmanship with a effective, controlled blocking

 

Now: maybe a block key isn't even the way to acheive this, but this is what I would like, and what I think would please most people whilst giving great variety.

[tore24]

I'm in disaccord about a block key for following reasons:

 

 

Have you seen "Severance: Blade of Darknes"? Ok, in this game you have a block key for the weapon and for the shield.

When use a weapon for blocking, you must have perfect timing, pressing block key just before enemy's attack hit you. In JKII shouldn't be the same thing, because the game is more fast and confuse.

 

In Severance, the weapon break after some block, while in JKII light saber is indestructable and good palyer can block to infinite stalling the match (overall in duell).

Using a shield (Severance), you can walk blocking everyting, but also the shield isn't indestructable. In JKII isn't fun hold block key, becoming invulnerable, and stay to see what happen...

 

With a blok key, you can effectively interrupt a strike in middle animation.

This is usefull for feint a swing (Severance, Virtua Fighter) or when you wrong an attack, that leave you open to counterattack, but in this case, since in JKII you can move where you want while attacking, it's better dodge running backward or sidestepping, instead blocking counterattack.

 

In JKII are binded a lot of keys, another key for blocking could be excessive.

 

Is it really neccessary? If you stand firm in front your opponent, isn't implict that you want block? Moreover, if block is more effective when aiming opponent with the crosshair, you must able to follow moving enemy with crosshair (that ligh blue) or decide who block in multi fight. IMHO this thing is coolest.

 

I should make a block key, only if with it, I could perform special parry like reversal, reject enemy saber, disarm, etc., with a combination of keys. I have posted a thread ( some ideas for a future patch or mod ) where explain what I mean for reversal, reject saber, disarm, etc..