Outsider's view of JKII 1.03

[Hell]

I just bought this game and enjoyed it greatly. I am not a big multiplayer fan and generally play flight sims. I have read a great deal of the concern about the 1.03 patch and the so-called "assfighting" phenomenon.

 

I used to work in a mod group called Realism Patch Group (RPG) for the simulation, Falcon4. When we worked on that, one of our most sacred obligations was to "do no harm" to the simulation. Implicit in our approach was the assumption that we were working on a complex system where even seemingly small tweaks could produce cascading side effects that, in amny instances, could ruin the balance of the game. We tried very hard to avoid that. and I believe we did a good job.

 

What I read here in these forums, now servers are rife with people "running around backwards", and servers are trying to "outlaw" certain moves (the backstab). All I can say is that, apparently, the 1.03 patch rewards a bizarre style of play (running backwards to execute an inappropriately successful move) and an inordinate amount of discontent among players.

 

Simply observing this from the outside, there indeed seems to be a rather significant flaw in the 1.03 patch. The very fact that that the most "succesful" playing styles, which evolved by natural selection in the 1.03 environment, consist of running backwards doing a "backstab," is evidence of this. EVidence that is made more certain as server administrators are apparantly compelled to outlaw certain moves. No matter what the developers intended to do, no matter how much testing they did, ithe best evidence for whether or not the patch works properly is how it affects the play of teh game. When a large percentage of the players are running around in reverse, and many serveres are considering outlawing certain styles of play, no amount of rationalizing can deflect the obvious implications.

 

Perhaps Ravne's testing did not reveal the cascading effects this would have in a multiplay environment. Its hard to know.

 

I dont do multiplay and am just about finished playing JKII a 2nd time through. Then I will be done with it. I hope that Raven does indeed consider amending their code. When I was in RPG we frequently ran into these kinds of problems. We also fixed them.

 

Regards,

 

PStewart

RPG Emeritus

[Nathan Wind]

raven did no testing.

 

i suspect that they will further destroy the game by hindering other moves that have a purpose.

 

backstab had a purpose in 1.02. it didnt kill immediately. raven needs to realize this as well.

[jarek]

the backstab worked the same way before the patch, it just wasnt popular until the DFA was removed.

 

i dont mean for this to come across as rude, but since you are an "outside" observer and dont have much (if any) online playing experience with JK2, why have you even commented on it? experienced players can (and do) avoid being backstabbed. i do it many times each game. its as easy to avoid as it is to excute the move.

 

ive said it many times before, the rocket launcher and the secondary fire on the fletchet gun can kill you in 1 well placed shot also. no one ever seems to complain about this. why is a saber 1 hit kill move considered lame and a gun 1 hit kill move not? no one has even been able to answer that. cuz there isnt an answer.

 

i like the backstab move and i use it. mind you i dont run around backwards all day tho. and its not the only move i use.

[Nathan Wind]

he has a point. playing a game with your ass sticking out is silly. the fact that this game now encourages fighting with your ass sticking out is a sad fact

[Talon_of_BHG]

Is it coincidence the one move not changed by the patch is the one a lot of ppl like to use? All the moves can be avoided or countered in some way. That was the same before the patch. the real problem is the ppl who abuse these moves, not necessarily the moves themselves. pre patch ppl complained about other ppl spamming the dfa. raven responded by nerfing the dfa and the other things that players complained about. Its nice to know Raven was watching but nerfing moves isnt the answer. They should have added to the game rather than taking away from it. I never had a problem with any of these moves like dfa or backstab and I still dont. It just feels like you bought a car and then afterward they switched the kick ass engine with a smaller one. If you look at it that way, its kind of a bad thing isnt it? fix the bugs, balance the exploits, but dont take away from the game like that cause while those that didnt learn how to counter the moves were satisfied, those of us that did feel a little betrayed (see car example above). The point is there was no need to totally nerf the moves that ppl were pissed about cause these same ppl would have learned how to counter them soon enough anyway.

 

I dont know if i put my point across right, i am not taking anything away from anyone here. I just feel that adding to the game would have been a better strategy then taking away from it.

[Nathan Wind]

it was changed. backstab/sweep no matter what the stance was only seldom lethal. it also moved the charachter back so only one blow connected.

[Ready Wan]

backstab wasnt such a big deal in 1.02 because the dark side powers weren't so crippled.

1.03 crippled the dark side powers (granted: some needed tweaking.. i.e. drain, but they didnt need neutering, which has created the problem in 1.03), and so now the only way to avoid the backstab is to be Light side and use absorb.

 

also, in 1.03 there were other moves that worked as well, so there was some variety in attacks, making for an interesting and intuitive game.

 

1.03 has ruined the game. play light side and live, play dark side and get reamed (sorry for the analogy).

 

1.03 forces players to use absorb and rage to protect from the backstab. Lightening is the only usable darkside power...and only then against newbies who dont know about absorb.

 

this WAS such a great game

[Nathan Wind]

you are right on all things except that i wanted to point out that backstab/sweep now does a greater amount of damage than in 1.02

[Drepanon]

Hi all,

The people who cry about a certain tactic or move always prompt a lame patch. Sadly, The people who are hurt by a massive change in game play are the ones who really took time to refine their skill. I played Starfleet Command for 5 years and the developers completely changed the game three times with patching. I will not go through that again. It was very frustrating and quite frankly I feel it is unacceptable.

 

I subscribe to the adapt philosophy. It took time, patience, and practice but, I rarely am killed from DFA and the back stabbers I simply throw a saber up their butt until they turn around. Their is always a counter to a move. In reguards to the force lamers.... I halved the force regen time in my server config. This way they can have Master level force but they had better think about when to use it. Many things can be tweaked in the config file that I hear people complain about.

 

I still run 1.02 servers for now.

The server addresses are:

 

209.204.71.200

209.204.71.201

209.204.71.207

[w1ggl3s]

Backstab wasnt so pwrfull in 1.02 because you Bounced off the saber.

 

So as you flipped up the bs would connect and send you hurtling into space,

 

Most of the time i spend aiming my backstab in 1.02 so people fall off the Ledge.

 

I love the 1.03 backstab. But i hate 1.03.

 

If all backstabs where like BLue we wouldnt be having this problem. on person effected by the backstab at one time.

 

Not this huge sweep executed by the press of 2 buttons.

 

I use a series of set up moves that i learned in the first few weeks of jk2 to give myself the advantage over someone else.

 

IE so that i can use backstab on them.

 

It was hard to do in 1.02 against realy good players. and the ping pong effect off the sabers made it even tuffer.

 

in 1.03 it was hard to use my set ups against anyone. but the backstab was easy to use because it passed threw people dont loads of dmg.

 

I think they just need to make all the backstabs like the blue . Hurt one person and one person only.

 

If they want a spiral hit like that in the game make it do something else

 

Wiggles

[Master Rooster]

As I see it, and I do have bad eyesight, the problem with backstab is not so much its power, because it can be avoided, but its silliness. Causing people to run about backwards is bad enough, but when you think about it, the whole concept is silly - when your back is turned, you should be exposed. I instinctively go round the back of people to get easy hits in a fight, but then they just backstab. You should be weaker, not stronger, from behind. If they are going to keep the move as it is, they should at least make a forward equivalent, balancing out the directions.

[Patton]

I didn't read all the posts, so don't sue me if this has already been said.

 

But this is really quite stupid. You're blaming the wrong people for the backstabbing problems. Raven tested. In fact, I'll bet they tested alot. But there is one thing testing will never, ever reveal: idiots, and how they play. If these idiots want to play like idiots, and run backwards trying to backstab, let them. If fun means winning by looking like a retard (it was the same issue with bunny-hopping in counter-strike,) then so be it. But I enjoy the new patch. Incidently, the company I keep consists of intelligent people out to have a good time and recreate the great lightsaber battles we saw in the movies.

 

We don't need a new patch to take this move out. What we need is a way to club some people over the head for being retarded.

[Spider AL]

the backstab worked the same way before the patch, it just wasnt popular until the DFA was removed.

 

This is the same nonsense as always, FYI pre-patch the light stance backstab was simply not as viable as an attack... and frankly even now the light stance backstab is not a guaranteed one-hit-kill.

 

The RED style backswing IS. Now before the patch, the red stance backswing (like all red stance strikes) knocked the opponent away a bit on the FIRST TOUCH. This meant that no further damage could be dealt. With the removal of the "batsabre effect" in 1.03, the backswing does full damage.

 

Whereas before the opponent had to be prone AND backed into a corner for the backswing to do comparable damage, now you can backswing someone while they're standing out in the open, and it will probably do full damage.

 

Also it's worth noting that since the red stance strikes all did a decent amount of damage pre-patch, people in FFA were less likely to resort to 1-hit-kill moves, simply because sabre fights didn't take long to finish, and you could deal damage swiftly without using the one-hit-wonders. Now sabre fights take twice as long, and when you're fighting several people at once they are no longer viable. Backswing is really the quickest way to end a fight... So whether the people who use it are "idiots" or not is neither here nor there, Raven have, unwittingly or not, supplied a single uber-powerful move that works so well you can go the entire game without using another, AND you can win it in this manner.

 

This is unacceptable.

[C'jais]

Originally posted by Master Rooster

You should be weaker, not stronger, from behind. If they are going to keep the move as it is, they should at least make a forward equivalent, balancing out the directions.

 

Word.

 

Some people just expect a game to be perfectly balanced from day one. Some people "adjust" and take advantage (abuse, in my book) of a game's flaws, other people abolish such moves and try hard to ignore the flaws and leave them alone and forgotten.

 

1.02 was horrible, nuff said. 1.03 with its actually *present* blocking system is much better, but they didn't need to lower the damage as well. These 2 factors (blocking and low damage) clearly resulted in da backstab/slash. That move is so hideous and lame that im soon gonna puke all over it and the players who constantly use it. Nowhere in the movies do they use it, and it's pathetically unrealistic, pointed out by Rooster above.

 

I say: Keep the move the move but make it clearly blockable, get rid of the 340 degree blocking arc, and add a frontal *stab* which is also clearly blockable but has high damage potential and leaves the user *very vulnerable*.

[Dark Begger]

If you get killed by a back sweep all the time, than you need to touch up on your skill. That's all I can say. The move is slow, and it takes time to execute and very easily countered. You don't just stand there like a sitting duck waiting for them to do it. And if yo ugive the the excuse that in FFA you can't see them coming because you're fighting someone else, then still, there's no difference from that move and a rocket placed right into two duelers. It's all the same, so don't whine about it.

 

The way I see it, the moves are perfectly fine, the game needs 1 hit kills. Unless you want a game that goes no where, and getse boring quick and has NO sense of danger when dueling. The reason backstab and sweep were used very seldomly in 1.02 was because if you had your back turned for a second, you could have been dead, it was just not worth it to run at a guy with your back turned. Now with the decreased damage that all YOU whiners complained about, running backwards is completely fine, and you won't get hurt as much. This is inevitably all YOUR fault, as this problem of backstab would NEVER have arose if you guys didn't complain about heavy being too strong or SHIET like that. Well guys, THIS is the punishment for your USELESS and POINTLESS complaints back in teh day when you were TOO LAZY to learn that HEAVY was not luck, and was counterable and slow, and that MEDIUM was a VERY good stance to use. YOU ruined the game for ALL of the people who decided to take the time to learn HOW to defend against moves instead of COMPLAIN and get those moves removed. Yes, all YOU complainers are to blame, and now all YOU are complaining again. Why can't you guys just SUCK IT IN, GROW UP, and stop asking your Mommy RAVEN to FIX ALL THIS SHIET FOR YOU.

 

Oh, and flame me all you want, but please have good reason to back your statements up. Statements calling me bantha Fodder (since I do not spend much time here complaining usually) do not constitute a reason to flame, as DannyJ did the other day.

 

Don't agree? tell me how this statement is flawed.

[Dark Begger]

If you think 1.03 is better than 1.02, and like all the saber changes, then you my friend, are a n00b, and did not take the time to learn how to saber well in 1.02. The only thing that could possibly have needed changing was the after effect of the DFA. THAT'S IT....everything else was balanced, and each battle in duel was as heated as the next. You could die in two hits (not including DFA, since that is easily defendable). Medium killed in 2 hits. Heavy killed in 2 hits. no difference. Heavy was slow and after swinging leaves you wide open for attack from faster attacks. Medium was quicker but does less damage than heavy. They both have their strengths and then obviously inturn have their weaknesses. The only arguement is that light COULD have been tweaked to make ti more evenly matched with medium and heavy.

 

1.03 is bad, and the fact taht you are complaining AGAIN is even worse. Just play the game and leave it as is, for there will always be a 1 hit move, and it will always be abused. so shut up and learn how to defend against it.

[Nathan Wind]

the only thing that was bad (maybe) in 1.02 was the DFA in that i could never run up and kill the idiot as fast as id like to. i never got hit. the matches just dragged on longer than it had to.

 

i didnt even mind/care about that though

[Dark Begger]

EXACTLY Nathan, there was nothing wrong with it..it was these NO SKILL n00bs, who are complaining about BACKSTAB right now, that were here complaining about 1.02. They're like that annoying little neighbour that just won't shut up and deal with things themselves, have to go crying on mommy and telling on people.

[Spider AL]

If you get killed by a back sweep all the time, than you need to touch up on your skill. That's all I can say.

 

Dark "begger", you're obviously not experienced enough to post your opinions yet.

 

Pull + Backswing is unblockable. One-hit-kill.

 

NF duelling is fine, and that's probably all you play, so good on you. But all Force games from FFA to duel have been mauled by 1.03.

 

Now with the decreased damage that all YOU whiners complained about, running backwards is completely fine, and you won't get hurt as much. This is inevitably all YOUR fault, as this problem of backstab would NEVER have arose if you guys didn't complain about heavy being too strong or SHIET like that. Well guys, THIS is the punishment

 

Who exactly are you talking to? The people who whined about sabres not being leet enough are all HAPPY now! They're running around in NF duels (which was all they played anyway) after ruining the game for serious force players! "Back in the day" people of comparable intelligence to yourself were whining, and people like myself and Nathan were telling them that they shouldn't. The result of their whining was that THEY GOT THEIR WAY, and so if I must post repeatedly in an attempt to grab Raven's attention and get them to fix the silly mess of 1.03, then so be it.

 

Sort your darned facts out.

[Dark Begger]

actually no..you're wrong, I can bet you that more than 50% of the poeple complaining about backstab right now, also complained about DFA..or heavy being too strong..or something else in 1.02. actually I can bet more than 75% of the people did complain then and are complaining about something else now.

 

Oh and as for pull, you get something called level 3 pull...and guess what, you don't fall to the ground unless they're right infront of your face! They roll at you? jump! wow..nto that difficult...no special moves..just jump and roll or do whatever, if you can tell when a guy is going to pull you, you can always have the upper hand. Pull counters pull, so you can render it useless, unless you let the guy get right up to you touching your nuts. And if you let that happen, you should be dead anyways.

[Spider AL]

actually no..you're wrong, I can bet you that more than 50% of the poeple complaining about backstab right now, also complained about DFA..or heavy being too strong..or something else in 1.02. actually I can bet more than 75% of the people did complain then and are complaining about something else now.

 

If you think adding percentages adds weight to your argument, you're wrong. You have no proof for these wild stabs in the dark.

 

Having said that, I have no doubt that there are still SOME of the original whiners around here, but I think the patch catered precisely FOR them, so I doubt their numbers are substantial.

 

Oh and as for pull, you get something called level 3 pull...and guess what, you don't fall to the ground unless they're right infront of your face!

 

The same idiotic tosh, you don't have to be touching your foe or even close to touching your foe to knock them down REGARDLESS of what they've assigned to pull or push. The minumum distance is appreciable. Same old story with your post, someone who hasn't bothered to research the power expounding his "expert opinion" of it on these forums. Well flipping done.

 

In a FF duel, it's now "who pulls wins." The only way to get a good duel is to disable pull... and I've won hundreds of FF duels through pull, so I'm well qualified to make this statement. In a sabres only free for all, it's "pull the group and backswing!" even if one or two stay standing through absorb or having jumped during the pull, it's still the only method of racking up kills quickly, and the person who does it most efficiently wins. In No Force sabres only FFA, it's "wait till a group forms, then backswing it!" And no matter how hard you try to play without resorting to backswing, there's no way you'll keep up with a backswinger. In Guns FF FFA, it's "find the darksiders, pull them and backswing them." Don't even get me started on Jedi Master. If you spent any time at all playing a range of modes you'd realise just how ruined the game is since 1.03.

[Nathan Wind]

whoa whoa. all 3 of us are on the same team.

 

but... pull backstab is unstoppable.

 

i think you do have a point about the people complaining. "ass-fighters" are not good people. i never got back stabbed unless i got pulled first. i never backstabbed myself unless i pulled first, (or went ninja with mind trick).

 

whiners are whiners. but there are whiners who win and those that loose. i win, and i am very pissed about this game

 

 

and as long as i dont get anymore sarcastic, whiney posts from you begger, im happy

[Revik Val'Thek]

In my opinion, Force games are more skilled than NF games, if both players know what they are doing.

 

Both must keep their forces to maximum potential so they can either avoid a pull/backstab, or drain so they cant pull you.

 

Force is fun in duels, its the people that don't understand the game that complain about pulls + backstab.

[Dark Begger]

If you have enough in your force pool and aren't close to they guy, you won't be knocked down. I've done this in 1.02, and done this in 1.03. I have played FF duels, and you have to be up close in order to pull a guy down who has level 3 force. ask anyone else on here. I don't know what you're playing, or who you're playing, maybe they're using a script or something, but you have to be close if they have a substantial force pool. And don't say I haven't tested this, I have tested every aspect of 1.03, from CTF, to TDM, to CTY, etc etc... I have to as I report on our clan forums what these changes do to certain tactics, and how to get around them. So don't tell me I did not research. You CANNOT I repeat CANNOT be pulled down to the ground if you have a substantial force pool and you are at a distance FURTHER than his or yoru light saber reaches.

 

As for the percentage, no I do not have no proof. But if you look at the posts complaining about backstab..(if you want I can go find one) they usually compliment how Raven took away DFA (meaning they were happy with they changes that Raven changed for them) but now have something else to complain about. Raven may have changed all the things for them and made them happy, but since backstab came, they have become disgruntled again, and have returned.

[BlackDove]

[rebornlaugh]hahahahahahahaha[/rebornlaugh]