A Player's Plea to Map Makers: No Music, No Hidden Files

[ScribeJC]

Love all the new maps, good job to everyone. But there are two things I have to request. I don't know if others feel this way or if this has been brought up before, but I had to get it off my chest:

 

1) DON'T INCLUDE MUSIC IN PAK FILE. I don't play with music, I don't have the same taste in music that you do, I don't want to use up the megabyte of space a music track fills. But, most importantly: If you want people to play your map online don't include a music file.

 

A good duel map is around 500K. I have most of them, but sometimes I miss one. With a cable modem it'll in-game download in a half a minute. No problem. But if your map includes a 2.5 mb rip of Star Wars music that I already have on disk or worse, some inappropriate pop music, then it will be too large for autodownload -- especially for 56Kers. I will hit escape and not play your map.

 

Include music in a separate PAK file if you like. "MyMapMusic.pk3" will do fine.

 

2) DON'T HIDE OTHER MODIFICATIONS IN YOUR MAP FILE. There's a popular map called Yaving Hangar, I think. Inside the pak file IS A SKIN AND A BOT. I already have a Mara Jade bot -- this map includes another one called "Mara." Even worse, this bot crashes my system.

 

I downloaded your file because it was a map. If I wanted to download a bot, I would have done that. With the crashing (which I haven't confirmed occurs with anyone else) this is almost a trojan horse.

 

Again, if you got a bot that you think works great on your map, include it in a separate PAK file.

 

*****

 

That's it. Really enjoying the maps. Thanks for listening.

 

-JC

[Xcom]

Originally posted by ScribeJC

A good duel map is around 500K.

 

I certainly hope you mean pk3/zip size and not map size.

[ScribeJC]

Originally posted by Xcom

 

I certainly hope you mean pk3/zip size and not map size.

 

Of course I mean pk3 size -- that's what's downloaded. I refer to them as "pak" files out of habit from the old Quake 1 days. One of the joys of any Quake 3 based games is their zip-based file system. All in one "package," compressed to take up less HD space. Sure, there's a bit of a wait for decompression during loads, but it's worth it. And it makes autodownload a true possibility -- unless there's a big MP3 track in the pk3 file... and I'm back to my original point.

 

-JC

[patchx]

hmmm

 

my sp level has 1.5 megs worth of mods in it and the map size is about 3 megs compressed

 

is that too much?

 

it'll suck if noone downloads it because its too big

 

 

-patch

[DannyJAllTheWay]

I would say that yes, no hidden files like that. I would also say that the size of the map has really nothing to do with how good the map is. Some of the better maps are really small, one-box room duel maps. Conversly, some of the not-so-good maps that I've seen are very small and are simply a "box", nothing more and very plain. However, there are some maps out that are like 1MB or over that are awesome. Conversly, there are some maps that are bigger than that that aren't all that great.

[volrathxp]

keep in mind... a large ffa map is going to be large in file size while a relatively small duel map can end up being the same size due to the amount of brushes/entities/patches involved in the map. my first duel map was relatively large. a good duel map isn't based on file size. it's based on whether or not the player wants to play in it. and there are many a good duel maps out there over 3mb that are great maps. go take a look at rich's duel_kamino screens on this same forum and tell me you wouldn't want to play in that. i know i would! Which reminds me (beta rich beta rich beta rich beta rich beta beta beta )

 

Danny does make a lot of good points as well. Go Danny!!!

 

 

volrath

[Master Shawn]

About the music bit, I think its up to the mapper to decide that, if its an imperial map, he/she may put the imperial march in there to make the map feel more alive, I did that to my Imperial Refueling Station cause it made the experience better. Im gonna add music to my next FFA/Duel map Jedi Order Temple called Tales of a Jedi Knight, its gonna add a lot of feeling to the map, and im sure a lot of players like the music they hear while playing if they manage to have the time to pay attention to it that is. And about that extra mod part, that, I very so much agree with, its very annoying when ppl pack up extra mods and you end up downloading and entirely new saber hilt/skin or some new weapons mod along with a map, I dont do that because I dont need to, and I hope other mappers out there get the hint that the community doesnt enjoy it very much...

[RichDiesal]

Originally posted by volrathxp

blah blah blah go take a look at rich's duel_kamino screens on this same forum and tell me you wouldn't want to play in that. i know i would! Which reminds me (beta rich beta rich beta rich beta rich beta beta beta )

 

volrath

 

Actually, at v0.3 (my most recent alpha version), in a pk3, my map is only 125k.

[volrathxp]

i do agree about the extra files too. i do like music... but i think maybe the compression rate should be lower so the file sizes are lower... i learned that with my first map...

 

rich still i wanna beta!

 

volrath

[sights0d]

I agree about the music too. If I really want to hear music when I play, I just set up real player to play. With my media keys on my keyboard, I just pick my favorite SW tunage and hit play after my game starts. I'm probably wasting a couple hundred megs on the same SW tunes repeated around 40 times each.

[aazell]

I would say that the music files that shipped with the game were adequate for most maps any way.

 

I'm looking at the possibility of building a droid factory duel map based on the cool bit in AOTC (Can't rememeber the planet name). I would obviously want to add the track from the AOTC album (readily available in all good record stores!) from that scene of the film.

 

For the Duel of Fates map it was very necessery to add that music. It would have been poop without it.

 

With regard to Mods being added I think that it is justified if the map is being sold as a pack. For instance the duel of fates map may have been cooler if it shipped with models of Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Darth Maul. Therefore haveing all the elements required to recreate that scene.

 

Although I think a basic map should be made available too.

 

cheers

 

Aaz

[Xzzy]

> With regard to Mods being added I think that it is

> justified if the map is being sold as a pack.

 

Maps should be maps, and mods should be mods.

 

If you wanted to release a full set of details, it is not hard at ALL to release two pk3 files.

 

There is no goddamn reason that duel of the fates map on outcastmaps should be 21 megs in size.

[BradFu]

Just wanted to post my comments, as another player, but not a mapper:

 

I think there's some wisdom in asking mappers not to include unnecessary stuff. This does not mean maps should not include music, however. I certainly beleive in some situations, music adds to the feel of a level. If it's used for that purpose, I'm all for it. If the level works just fine with some of the music included in the game, that may be the best option.

 

I personally don't mind big downloads, but I can understand how some people feel about them, especially the dialup connection people.

 

In the end, I think it all has to come down to the mapper's judgement. Perhaps with this thread, some of them might take more time to consider the need for extra stuff like music. If they decide it's necessary to get their vision across, I'm all for it

 

BradFu!

[Grudge]

I see it like this:

 

Multiplayer map = NO music

 

Single player map = Add all the music you want

 

But I hope that the people that add copyrighted music to their maps are aware that it is illegal.

 

// Grudge

[UniKorn]

Maps are maps, don't include player models in it so that it can be used if your map is on aserver.

Music : try to stick to the music raven provided (if you plan to add music)

[Demyse]

I'd have to agree about the hidden files. Thats annoying and unnecessary. Now, if the mods are for SP like changing Kyle's skin and such, then go ahead, but see if you can make it so the player can turn the .pk3 file on or off. (I'm pretty sure, while I haven't looked lately, that there is a mods menu in SP.).

 

The music on the other hand, I think is up to the mapper. While I think that mappers of MP levels should refrain from putting music in their missions, if they manage to keep the music file under 1 meg or less, its cool. With SP, adding music gives the level more depth and can raise the enjoyment level.

[Machine_IX]

Interesting to hear a non-mappers opinion.

 

I have to agree with the mod stuff. But with music it does depend on the map.

[volrathxp]

Originally posted by Grudge

I see it like this:

 

Multiplayer map = NO music

 

Single player map = Add all the music you want

 

But I hope that the people that add copyrighted music to their maps are aware that it is illegal.

 

// Grudge

 

Good point Grudge... my original idea for Rave House was to add the Nine Inch Nails song "Metal" to the map for it's musical track. I have recently just thrown in a nice little 16 second loop that i got out of the Fruity Loops 3 Demo package.

 

i'd say unless you have explicit permission to use a song (which i most likely will for my little duel fan map for lennon, since I know her) then don't use it.

 

volrath

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

absolutely don't include mods with your level, by all means have a mod for the map downloadable seperately, but including a mod in a map means that its on all the time and affects everything else.

[ScribeJC]

Good responses from everybody. It's a relief to be involved in a thread that isn't filled with flames.

 

In retrospect, my opinion on music in maps may have been overgeneralized. Of course, Duel of the Fates needs TPM music. And, ultimately, I download most everything beforehand.

 

Glad to see most everyone agrees that hidden mods are annoying.

 

Once again, this player thanks all the map makers for their hard work. I've only constructed one map in my life -- a duplicate of an office to play Quake 1 with my co-workers. Just like that Raven map that has appeared in SOF 1, Elite Force and JK2.

 

Ironically the map I created was for the production office of the TV show "Soldier of Fortune, Inc." If you've never done it before, it's a total crackup to play in a map while actually being IN THE LOCATION. When you're done fragging you walk out of your office very disoriented and feeling empty handed without a rocket launcher.

 

May your textures always be aligned...

 

-JC

[jipe]

Of course, Duel of the Fates needs TPM music.

 

Except that it's illegal. Besides breaking the EULA with copyright violation, it also forces the person who downloads the level to download the song, which is illegally distributed. On top of that, it increases the file size a ridiculous amount. Sure, it's fun to listen to the dueling music, but if I want to I'll just throw the CD into my cd player.

[Demyse]

Ever jaywalked, thats illegal too.

 

Actually, being as most of us are fans here, most of us have either a copy of TPM or a copy of the soundtrack(or both). The map is not being sold, and as such, LucasArts/LucasFilms/Interactive Light and Magic probably wouldn't be pissed.

 

As for it increasing the file size, yea it does. But seriously, if you REALLY want to wait to download a file off of a game server, you need to check your priorities. I normally search (using ASE) for servers seeing which use which addon maps, and get the most popular ones. That way I'm ready to join those servers. Even on 56k downloading a 2 meg file isn't that big of a deal, much less a 9 meg file. (When I had 56k, I was downloading 10 meg files in about 25-30 minutes.)

 

I've got a solution however for the mp map with music thing. What about 2 .pk3 files. Sort of like what the ladder did. One for music, one for the map itself. The only problem I can think of that may arise in this situation is that pure servers may not be able to have music then, but I really can't see how that could happen either.

[jipe]

Ever jaywalked, thats illegal too.

 

Breaking a law does not make it "ok" to go break another one. "After I rob this 7-11, I'll run people over with my car.."

[Demyse]

Originally posted by jipe

 

Breaking a law does not make it "ok" to go break another one. "After I rob this 7-11, I'll run people over with my car.."

 

Never said it did make it ok, I was just saying no one is perfect.

I doubt LEC would throw the book on anyone, modders and mappers have been using songs and stuff for years.

 

At any rate, I'd hate to see such a good topic go off track any further. This post isn't about discussing legal matters, its about discussing maps.

[Klorel]

legal or not, a good star wars location map needs mood music. i dont want to battle in the emporers throne room without some ROTJ mood music... its just not the same. And also, random levels like the mario and zelda level and the mortal combat levels also have appropriate music. now, i havent downloaded any pop music levels, and hope i never have to, but i think that a level, especially duels, are better when given the right soundtrack, and if people dont like them, they can just go into the .pk3 and delete the song... not that difficult