Areoch Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Hello and for those of you who don’t want to listen to my reasons or theory and want to get to the suggestions, just scroll down so you can see the asterisk line and under that I listed what I think would cure this problems. For the rest of you just read this like a normal post. (Remember this is based on my own observations and may not be 100% correct). I put some thought into this and read up on most of the posts on other suggestion/flames/praises. I felt the need to write partially because of an experience I had in FF duel (more on that later) and because in part Artifex’s retirement (read: http://www.oculis.org/asc/guides/retirement.html). First of all lets identify a few things there are generally three types of people who play: The person who plays for fun, The person who plays to win and the person who spams. Case One: The Person Who Plays For Fun: Generally people who like starwars/Jedi Knight. They don’t particularly care about the intricacies and they know how to roll with the punches, they’ll adapt to the game and play it and have fun. Easy goers really. Case Two: The Person Who Plays to Win: The professional, the MVP and the person who aspires to be better than everyone else. These people play ladders and they play tournaments. These are the type of people who don’t have fun in sports unless they are whooping someone else. Its not a game to them it’s a competition. A prime example of this type of person is Artifex, now I am not criticizing him if this is how he wants to play the game its how he plays the game. Case Three: The Person Who Spams: I guess this would be your stereotypical newbie or skill-less person who wants to use the cheapest, easiest way to kill a person. These people are like electricity, they’ll always use the path of least resistance. These people were the DFA spammers in 1.02 and these people who sole rely on backstab/sweep and don’t use anything else. These are lump categories and most people are not definite in one or the other usually someplace in-between. Now 1 probably doesn’t use the backstab/backsweep very often as they don’t get the timing for it or consider it to take away from the game as it is a very cheap and stupid move. Its not so simple for 2. Because of the spammers 2 is forced to spam himself as there is no real effective way to counter 3 without resorting to the moves themselves. (In 2’s eyes he can’t waste time using normal moves on a backstab/sweeping person if he wants to remain on top). I wholeheartedly believe that no one wants to be a total cheese but most are forced to because of other people. Now that we have looked at the people, lets look at the moves themselves Backstab The length of the saber backwards AND forwards. People are smart enough to avoid the backstab as it does give you enough time to move around or dodge but I find that its not the backstab itself that gets more people but the forward part of it. If you are standing in front of a person while he backstabs someone behind him when the saber comes back to the ready position in front of him it WILL kill you. This is the same goddamn idle hitbox problem that the DFA people used when the saber was in the ground. So you have to imagine a long line behind the person slightly on their right side that has a small arc as it comes back to the ready position. The second problem is the rotation, people can turn with this move, bringing the killzone on you though the backstab usually needs a direct connect to pierce the defenses. I made a rough drawing of what the killzone is like>> http://www.geocities.com/temporalaero/Backstab.jpg Backsweep The medium and heavy stance have a backsweep but you’ll probably see more of medium than heavy because they both do kill you in one hit from full (100/20). The backsweep has a slow counterclockwise spin with the saber in a sort of jabbing motion. The killzone is an oval with sides being slightly larger than behind and front. There is a blindspot in front but since Yoda isn’t out yet there is no model that is skinny enough to fit in it and this is not even taking in account to turning. Now with rotation and turning this move becomes deadly, considering it kills on CONTACT in the start of the animation, you might survive if you get hit with it late as its position becomes blockable. Here is another drawing of the killzone>> http://www.geocities.com/temporalaero/Backsweep.jpg Kicks Raven inadvertently made this worse when they included double clicking. See its not really double click kick its kick-while-in-air its still one click you just have be off the ground to do it. Before you had to be on the ground so it required more timing as you couldn’t start it early. Kicks are fun but spammers basically hop around like frogs hoping to knock you down so they can do a backsweep/stab. The problem with JKO (or any other game really) is that you can’t put in something powerful and slightly off balance and hope in good faith people won’t do often because it takes away from gameplay. 2 and 3 don’t think like that if they have to run backwards to get kills goddamn they’ll run backwards. You could put in a move that involved looking directly up and spinning your mouse around and if the move was a 1 hit kill, you would see 2 and 3 spinning around like idiots trying to do the one move so they could get kills. It would be funny if it weren’t true. Take CS for example the classic AWP whore, they are still around even when there is no crosshair, slowed movement in zoom, if they move at ALL the gun aims 5 feet away from the center. But still you’ll see those people who use it still, why? 1 hit kill. ********************************* ********************************* ********************************* ********************************* ********************************* Suggestions for future versions/mods: - = minor change suggestion + = major change suggestion -Glue the feet to the floor when doing backstab/sweep to stop people rotating (how can you move without moving your legs anyway?) +Alternatively just get rid of the whole 1 hit kill thing all together and make the backstab/sweep both do normal swing damage or a little less, so then its really used only when someone is behind you. Decrease the speed so that the person behind you has a chance to dodge. That would make the only 1 hit kill left the DFA and that’s balanced enough. -Go back to single click jump, reduce % of knockdown +Alternatively remove the forward kick on people leaving only the strafe-kicks which do require putting the other person in your blindspot to do -Make force throw take up more force power +OR Make force throw do less damage and when blocked have the saber be knocked down a la single player. Make it so that you can hit it in a swing sometimes sort of batting it away. +OR/AND When using a forcepower, let you still be able to block a saberthrow +Reduce the defense arc from 180 degrees semicircle to a 90 degree cone in front of a person. Letting more side hits get through and encouraging people to actually face the person to block hits (The reason people use cheap moves is because they feel that blocking is too much) +Remove Force Pull’s abilty to knock a person down (They fall back while being pulled forward now?) I haven’t talked about the medium finisher as its still debatable, its probably the prettiest move in the game and although while you can rotate while doing it, it doesn’t kill on contact and leaves the other 350 degrees of your body vulnerable. Well that’s all I have to say, questions/ comments/suggestions? Please be constructive and don’t flame. Remember this is my opinion on the spammy moves, I personally dislike them but I don’t dislike the game or the patch. Raven tried to make people happy and they missed this stuff because they didn’t expect people to idiots and spam 24/7. I really do believe that Raven will give us another patch as they wouldn’t leave people so dissatisfied and somehow I don’t think running backwards is their idea how the game should be. Personally I would like to see more combos and saber moves (maybe incorporate some 1.02 moves into the mix?) I would really like to see a ‘freelance’ style where you just hold the mousebutton down and the swing is determined by the path of your cursor. Properly balanced this would give a lot of freedom to saber enthusiasts and would be pretty cool as everyone would have their own style. Though that’s just wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 2 quick thoughts. running backwards is important. the suggestions arent totally balanced and gear primarily twords people who only use sabers. keep in mind that the balance of the game must be like a small loop within and imbedded in a big loop. sabers in a group by themselves, than in a bigger loop with relationships to all the other force powers. keep i mind, sabers ARE a force power. infact, it is not even a rock paper scissors relationship between sabers, its a relationship where medium must be better than light and heavy better than both. you pay the most for heavy in a force match, so it must be better. now, it obviously shouldnt be redicilously better, but say, hard to weild but with a good pay off. anyway, good post for the most part. only talks about sabers, though if thats what you mostly play, i am thankful. dont talk about any game mechanics if you dont understand it intimately. you seem to understand sabers well enough, so its not such a bad post. but as far as pull is concerned, (which i think is the root of the problem) it definately has a large function in ffa ff with guns. anyway, i dont want to ramble, good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areoch Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 Wow I get a response within 5 min, I love these boards. Thanks for the praise and yes I know I concentrated on sabers mainly and not force powers guns. For the most part I play CTF and Saber duels. FFA when I don't want to wait. I didn't think any my suggestions would have hurt the balance between guns though. Pull will still get rid of people's guns and bring them closer just not laying down for 10 seconds at the person's feet giving them all the time in the world to do a backstab/sweep. But I from what I gather you say that you want a bigger gap between the styles, damage wise or speed wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 no, i just wanted you to keep what i said in mind when you think about the game mechanics. what i wanted was bug fixes in 1.02. any drastic change in the game balance is a mistake at this point, and they need to correct their error with 1.03. i always see it from a minimalist perspective in regards to changes in game play, but 1.03 was so drastic it was as if it was an entirely new game. the selection was cut in half. your changes didnt hurt guns at all really because guns have already been hurt very badly. the suggestion about running backwards would hurt it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 keep i mind, sabers ARE a force power. infact, it is not even a rock paper scissors relationship between sabers, its a relationship where medium must be better than light and heavy better than both. you pay the most for heavy in a force match, so it must be better. That's a somewhat debatable issue, thanks to NF Dueling, to keep gameplay variable shouldn't there be a more balanced saber stance setup? Your suggestion that heavy should be the best skill would reduce optionins in gameplay--it would make it so that a skilled player had only one stance to chose from. Unfortunately you have to pay more for heavy stance, so I would suggest removing the Force Cost from stances entirely, making them defaulted. This would leave the game with more options, which == happiness I think most of your suggestions are well served, and make a good amount of sense, Aeroch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demise_SOK Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Thoughtful post. I always enjoy reading that makes me think about type of gamer I am and I think you nailed it down pretty good. I log onto servers with the hope I can play a reasonable saber-only FFA or CTF game without having to rely on one or two moves to win. Ya know? Like mix it up with good saber battles that involve timing basic swings to win. Unfortunately, I seem to find myself stuck with having to backstab alot to remain competitive. Not only am I competitive but I am vengeful and will often try to get rid of backstab spammers by killing them repeatedly with their one move- sometimes this works and they look for a server of sheep with less wolves in sheeps clothing . I agree with all your proposed cures, except I wonder if you forgot the change to saber damage that makes it depend on where the saber is in the arch of the swing? I think having to deal with that kind of collision detection is buggy as hell- more buggy then in 1.02 when the saber often went through opponents. The proposals I most certainly support is the reduction in auto-blocking- it is sick right now. The idea of decreasing it so players have to somewhat rely on their own skills when blocking attacks would do wonders for saber combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razage Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Very nicely written. I agree whole heartedly with it. When analyzing the moves you made the same mistake I always do in game, it comes from playing too many FPS where your opponent has no rear defences. ...doesn’t kill on contact and leaves the other 350 degrees of your body vulnerable.... See, not true, there is actually only two openings. One on their left, where the saber isn't, this one is about 60 degrees (And covers some of the left front. The other is on their right. However it is much smaller, I'd estimate 20 degrees or so and is around right rear. This is because their saber is there and it still will do as much damage as if they were in mid move if you touch it. Also they can always follow up with a rear spin if you attack their back. I know, I've tried this. I wouldn't go for the right opening because they can either rotate their saber into you, or position for a backswing. The left opening is far less risky because they probably won't have time to do either. However most professionals use pull-air-spin anyways. As for the backstab and ground-spin moves being for rear defence. They need to have the 3rd person view zoomed out more then. Because as it is, I can't see if someones attacking me from behind in 3rd until it's too late and I'm dead, or near dead and by then they've backed off so I'll get accused of ass fighting if I back up. That's my opinion anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areoch Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 Nathan Wind Ah wait I think you misinterpeted "Decrease the speed so that the person behind you has a chance to dodge." I meant the speed of the backsweep not running backwards. And I know I said that running backwards wasn't what raven wanted I meant the whole ass fighting style of fighting with people backing up into fights instead of facing the person. I hope that clears it up a little. Thank you though for bringing it up though anyway. Razage Thank you for your input and I think your description on the medium finisher, it sounds a bit more right than what I wrote about it. I know it carries the damage all throughout the swing but what I meant about the contact thing that it won't kill you instantly upon touching it not if you can avoid the part where he flicks his wrist up to hold the saber out. When its out away from the body though you can take some damage if you run into it ( around 80ish I think?). I was comparing the Med finisher to the backsweep where the saber kills you when its idle instantly in the first half of the animation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyDeeOnDatAs Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 i totally agree with the orginal poster of this thread. I am a number 2 type of guy i just like to win and consider saber duels a competition. In light of the backstab sweep i do think it is off balance. Being as i hardly use the moves unless someon is really behind me ( use mostly red stance when i play) when i do play a spammer ( people that will run at you backwards)i usually dont get hit but i have had some wierd things happen even with the 1.03 patch like a DFA taking life from me when it didnt even hit me. I think these moves( with the exception of DFA) should be blockable no reason they shouldnt be if its a clean hit cool maybe it should kill but not breaking thru anyones guard. ill leave it short and sweet cya on the battlefield. BillyDeeOnDatAss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<>Phant0m<> Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Good post Areoch, its obvoius that u know the game quite well. I must of said it a million times on this board, the backsweep shouldnt b a finishing move, why would a backsweep be anymore powerful or hit any more times than a heavy swing?? I personally think it should be a surprise attack doing average damage hitting once, so its blockable. I refuse 2 join the assfighting when its done 2 me as i think it promotes people doing it rather than teaching them a lesson, i perfer 2 fight fair and wh00p em yoda style Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Good job on the essay! Nathan, I, at first, also thought that since you pump more points into saber attack you get red stance, which should be better since you paid more for it. But now I've come to a new conclusion: You pay points in order to get more varied attacks. More points= more options. Quite like force powers. I agree with Vestril; Have all stances available from the beginning. Since people pretty only play NF and FF they *already* can choose whatever stance they want without considering the points. Have it all available, but the more points you put into s. atk, the more chance you have of breaking a parry or maybe you just cause more damage with each hit. That way people can choose to play with whatever they want from the beginning and still achieve a bonus if they spend their points in s. atk. What Areoch wrote about not being able to turn while backstabbing and losing your saber sometimes if throwing it, is pretty mandatory. It's taking straight outta singleplayer and it works great there: you don't dare to backstab really, because you can't turn and so have a very small chance of hitting. It should never have been turnable in multi from the beginning. Idle sabers should give idle saber damage, it's that simple. The blue backstab and medium special is horrifying to behold. Have any of you tried the medium special in singleplayer? It works fantastic, and you don't end up holding your saber out in thin air for 2 minutes, hoping your opponent is stupid enough to walk into it. It also looks WAY more acrobatic in singleplayer, BTW. Oh, and yeah, reduce the blocking arc, it's pathetic when i land a perfect hit in the back of my enemy and he just blocks it, through some magical feat. I have no comment about the kicks, other than i can't understand how people would want to look so stupid when jumping around, desperately hoping to hit something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALIEN_JL Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 eh hmm... --------------- Strong style --------------- Player should move his saber to "charged" position faster and that slash should be faster too but there should be small pause between that charged position and that actual slash move Hit when using strong style should be very powerfull like it already is and it should knock down enemy saber so that you could then hit him... but it shouldn't be unblockable........ --------------- Back stab --------------- I would like it so that you doesn't even need to turn by your self when you use it but you just press forward and backwards at the same time and fire or something like that and that move shouldn't be slow like it is now but it should be really quick finishing move which always kills when it hits >>BUT IT SHOULD BE EASILY BLOCKABLE<< even with saber defence level 1 which means that you must do it when enemy have his defence down (after you have knocked down his saber, when he is looking to other direction, ...) --------------- Force pull --------------- Level 1 - should allow you to pull targeted object Level 2 - Lev1 + should allow you to pull weapon out of the hands of the targeted enemy Level 3 - Lev2 + should allow you to knock down that targeted enemy If you have force pull power (any level) then enemies shouldn't be able to pull weapons from your hands at all (no matter if you are attacking or in defencive state or....) If you have force push power (any level) then enemies shouldn't be able to knock you down at all using force pull (no matter if you are attacking or in defencive state or....) --------------- Force push --------------- Just like it is... but... If you have force pull (any level) then enemies shouldn't be able to push you when you are on defensive state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Alien, you don't give any reason why you think your changes are needed. Red stance is fine the way it is, although if it was quicker it wouldn't look so moronic. It certainly doesn't need a damage boost. I think you *should* be able to pull a weapon, but that's just me. I don't quite catch your meaning with the backstab: do you want people to do it when they want, without an enemy behind them? otherwise your ideas are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Begger Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Seriously though guys, imagine if saber damage was increased. first of all...backstab/sweep spammers are GONE. It will be too dangerous to go around spamming backstab. Secondly, matches won't be as long, since it's more damaging, thus (in duels) faster queues along the duel line. Thirdly, there is a feeling of intensity everytime you go in for an attack, whether you be at full power or low power, every hit 'matters' in a way. 4) the normal swings would be used more often, and will give you more variety amongst the top players, so it's not all pull/backstabbers (which I am from time to time..hey, I'm a #2 guy, I gotta win, lol) and an occasional normal swing user. Right now I would say of the top players (competitively, don't go saying that you have to be like this to be at the top either..) 5/6 are skilled pull/backstabbers. and 1/6 normal users, actually, it could be even less. Anyways, what I'm saying is that they need to make it even, maybe 2/6 pull/backstab, 2/6 heavy, 2/6 medium...you know...just make it so there's more variety.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C'jais Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 you misunderstand me begger... I also want increased damage, but i just thought alien-jl implied that only the red stance should be given a boost. That would be unneeded, as it is already vastly superior to the others i think, in damage that is. And increased damage= more intensity and less spamming of moves. That, or less blocking. I prefer more damage as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Begger Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 cjais, my post wasn't aimed at yours..it was aimed at the total look of things. and how it should be changed...I'm just saying fi they upped saber damage, there would be no need to nerf backstab at all. Everyone will be happy, including the backstabbers..well they won't be happy, but they can't complain. there weren't screwed over lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason036 Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Finally someone with a good suggestion instead of just complaints. Very nice post Areoch. I hope some of the complain spammers learn from your post. Everything you said makes sense too. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Begger Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 yes, some very good points brought up, just some of the suggestions I do not believe are viable...but it's better than not suggesting at all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALIEN_JL Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Originally posted by cjais I don't quite catch your meaning with the backstab: do you want people to do it when they want, without an enemy behind them? --------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't want that it matters if there are enemy in front or behind or.... of you I don't want backstab to be based on enemies... but on simplekey combination which i would like to be (press and hold: forward +backward +attack) ----- Example ----- You are running forward and attacking (you are pressing both forward and attack) so if you keep down those two buttons and press backward you should make then this backstab attack ---------------------- And what this attack should do is that it should make your character to spin 180 degreen clockwise and end that move to backstab attack --------------------------------------------------------------------- And this attack should be quick and deadly (hit = kill) But like i sayed before it should be also VERY easily blockable (if enemy have defence up there should be ~0% hit probability) and and if/when enemy succeed to block this attack it will leave you in to quite vulnerable state So only reasonable time to use this attack would same kind of situation what was in SW EP1 (after you have knocked down enemy saber or when enemy is currently performing some slow attack... when ever his defence is and is going to be down for some time) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 nerfing backwards run would further destroy gun play in this game, which is a mistake. i think that the backmoves should just do the same, damage as 1.02, not very much. the only purpose to have them is to quickly defend your backside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areoch Posted May 31, 2002 Author Share Posted May 31, 2002 I don't know Alien it seems that would make it easier for people to expliot. With what you suggesting what stops people from spamming pull untill the person falls over at their feet and hit them while they are on the ground, their saber would be down then? Thanks for the praise guys though I would like to hear some input on the suggestions which do you think aren't workable or not effective. Dark Begger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALIEN_JL Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 Originally posted by Areoch I don't know Alien it seems that would make it easier for people to expliot. With what you suggesting what stops people from spamming pull untill the person falls over at their feet and hit them while they are on the ground, their saber would be down then? ReRead my earlier reply in this topic and that force pull area of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agen Posted May 31, 2002 Share Posted May 31, 2002 I'm a number 1 type guy but you'll find me amongst the top class of the players, i don't midn getting beat, but spamming annoys me. I don't have to win, i often do tho Hmmmm, i think raven know how to do it best, i agree with the glueing to the floor with the feet and know look. Also if the range was shortened it would make it harder for them and make it only do about 50 damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areoch Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 The whole having a one hit kill move able to be done at the press of the button doesn't sit well with me. I don't see how it would encourage people to use normal fighting and because its easier to do people would spam it more. If you make it so that leaves you open completely when blocked it just seems to be a whole lot of trouble coding it in for nothing. But hey thats just me. In your earlier post you said: >>>>>>>>>> --------------- Force pull --------------- Level 1 - should allow you to pull targeted object Level 2 - Lev1 + should allow you to pull weapon out of the hands of the targeted enemy Level 3 - Lev2 + should allow you to knock down that targeted enemy If you have force pull power (any level) then enemies shouldn't be able to pull weapons from your hands at all (no matter if you are attacking or in defencive state or....) If you have force push power (any level) then enemies shouldn't be able to knock you down at all using force pull (no matter if you are attacking or in defencive state or....) --------------- Force push --------------- Just like it is... but... If you have force pull (any level) then enemies shouldn't be able to push you when you are on defensive state >>>>>>>>> The suggestion on making pull not pull the weapons out when the other person has a single point in pull would jostle the balance a little. Basically what you are saying is that you want to give the level 3 pull/push-counter ablities to level 1 which would severly nerf both those powers unless you even it out with something else. With force push if you get rid of knockdown then the only reason to use it really would be to push people off ledges and to push projectiles back. I guess you could speed up the animation and lower the force usage but then you'll have to lessen the actual push effect to balance *that* or else people would spam push untill they fall off the ledge. Not good. With force Pull I suggested in my original post to simply lower % of knockdown or remove it completely from force pull only. Though with the way you suggest only one point of pull/push would be needed to negate all pull/push. Now if you wanted to only get rid of knockdowns why not simply remove them instead of having a roundabout system like this? I am sorry but with this it seems that push and pull would be nothing but a waste of points as the higher level effects are killed off by the one point of pull/push. I am sorry if I am not interpeting your system correctly but the way I read it now it doesn't look like it'll be very effective. If you are aiming to give gunners the advantage try boosting some aspect of guns instead of nerfing force powers to make them better I think that would make more people happier. IE: Making guns good on their own not making guns good by making force suck against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beep00beep Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Everybody loves.... Areeeeeoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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