Ending the clones debate

[Vestril]

Or next to Han, which might alert a few people...

[MotionMan]

Why would they have thousands to millions of embryos and also young clones if someone wasnt planning to get more? I mean the ones that joda picked up from Kamino were a small fraction of the whole amount(about 200,000). Why would they have child clones and embryos?

Someone(sidious) was obviously planning a HUGE army for the future. It wasnt going to be done in 10 years. Sidious knew that. By the time of the OT I think there were sevral shipments of clones to him by the kaminoans. Numbering in the millions. Which goes back to my original post...

 

thats the way i see it. :trooper: :trooper:

[Norin Radd]

Originally posted by Jaster21801

 

Umm... skill isn't inherited in DNA, so therefore, your basis of why TIE pilots and Scout Troopers are clones is inaccurate. Also, Imperials hire different species for Stormtroopers too... it's just not common... and Davin Felth was one of the Troopers on Tatooine... if I remember correctly, he was the one who said "Look sir, droids". And for the person who noticed "TK421", that's a call number. There are millions of Storm Troopers, do you think that the officers are going to know them by name?

 

I realize that DNA does not pass on skills, however, they do pass on traits. Physical as well as cognitive. Why do think the clone army was cloned from a warrior such as Jango Fett? For the inate characteristics of warfare and survival. The proverbial "killer instinct", as well.

 

 

Which enforces my point, that stormtroopers are clones.

 

 

 

Now, apparently this Davin Felth is from the EU, which means that the story can be skewed from the normal SW Universe, you would do well to keep that in mind, Havoc. Also, if this character is introduced after the events in ROTJ than it is entirely possible that all the stormtroopers are not clones, as the remnant imperial factions, from what I've read, hired mercenaries to be stormtroopers, after many of them were killed or captured at the Battle of Endor.

 

AND SO, THE DEBATE GOES ON. . .

 

 

I suggest you also do some more research on DNA.

 

[Vestril]

Originally posted by MotionMan

Why would they have thousands to millions of embryos and also young clones if someone wasnt planning to get more? I mean the ones that joda picked up from Kamino were a small fraction of the whole amount(about 200,000). Why would they have child clones and embryos?

Someone(sidious) was obviously planning a HUGE army for the future. It wasnt going to be done in 10 years. Sidious knew that. By the time of the OT I think there were sevral shipments of clones to him by the kaminoans. Numbering in the millions. Which goes back to my original post...

 

thats the way i see it. :trooper: :trooper:

 

The raw numbers are infeasible at the rate at which Kamino was producing. 200,000 a year for 22 years is 4,400,000 clones. Nowhere near enough to police a galaxy, not even a little bit close. 10 such planets wouldn't be enough.

 

Which enforces my point, that stormtroopers are clones.

 

Actually it doesn't--Stormies aren't very good shots

 

Now, apparently this Davin Felth is from the EU, which means that the story can be skewed from the normal SW Universe, you would do well to keep that in mind, Havoc. Also, if this character is introduced after the events in ROTJ than it is entirely possible that all the stormtroopers are not clones, as the remnant imperial factions, from what I've read, hired mercenaries to be stormtroopers, after many of them were killed or captured at the Battle of Endor.

 

Actually he was a Stormtrooper on Tatooine during ANH, according to Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina (I think) he was the trooper who said 'look sir, droids.'

 

Personally I don't think that EU has any place in this debate, since it has basically been turned into fan fiction...

[Norin Radd]

Originally posted by Vestril

 

 

 

Actually it doesn't--Stormies aren't very good shots

 

 

 

 

Episode IV

 

 

. . ."these blast points, too accurate for sand people, only IMPERIAL STORMTROOPERS are so precise. . ."

 

 

-Ben Kenobi

 

[Havoc Stryphe]

Originally posted by Norin Radd

Now, apparently this Davin Felth is from the EU, which means that the story can be skewed from the normal SW Universe, you would do well to keep that in mind, Havoc.

 

And you would do well, Norin Radd, to read the enire thread and to make sure you have your facts straight before going off half cocked! These are my own words from earlier in this very thread:

 

Davin Felth = Print

Obi-wan and Owen brothers = Print

Boba Fett's real name Jaster Mereel = Print

 

Books and print are moot. They are completely subject to change by Lucas at this point.

 

Now how is that supporting the EU? That is blatant disregard for the EU using the the very argument you used, but worded differently. Next time get your ducks in a line before you come knocking at my door!

 

Havoc had some good points, yes, but he was WAY off on one particluar point. There is no possible way to stop the growth acceleration of the clones. Boba was not "Taken off" his growth acceleration, weren't you listening? He was a completely unaltered clone, no changes at all i.e. no growth acceleration. And as for the other troopers, the growth acceleration is built into their genetic structure, not a food supplement. There is not a switch you can reach in and turn off. They only need to be useful for 10 years, because after 10 years they have new clones to take their place, if they haven't already died.

 

As MotionMan said in my defense, the Growth Acceleration does not have to happen at the time of fertilization nor during Embryonic growth. The supplement may be given daily through ingestion/injection. Thus, when the clones have reached "optimal" age, they are weened from the growth acceleration supplement and should age normally from that point on. Why on Earth would you pay the enormous price for clones that would only be a viable army for 5-10 years?

 

Yes, I know Boba was an unaltered Clone. Have you ever conducted experiments on rats, roaches, monkeys, rabbits etc?

 

99.9% of the experiments are preformed on already born animals not embryonic animals. There are typically two groups: The Control Group and the Variable group. The variable group is given certain dosages of the substance being tested while the Control group in treated normally without the use of the substance in question. The control group is considered "UNALTERED".

 

Let me use another example: Athletes, many weightlifters or Athletes in general will use steroids making them increase muscle mass and/or accelerate metabolism etc. (One such Steroid is the Human Growth Hormone sounds familiar?) This is not taken during gestation/conception/prenataly but rather taken by human adults. After they stop taking the steroid, they will most likey lose some muscle mass and teh metabolism will slow down (However they may have long term side effects even after they stop using the steroid). An athlete who does not take any steroid would be considered "unaltered". It has nothing do with there gestation period, their amnionic fluid during embryonic growth, or prenatal development!

 

By the way, their weapons training and war training was given as the clones grew up. Why not their acceleration. If they could make growth acceleration possible at gestation, then why not skills and mental training and growth at gestation?

[MotionMan]

Originally posted by Vestril

 

The raw numbers are infeasible at the rate at which Kamino was producing. 200,000 a year for 22 years is 4,400,000 clones. Nowhere near enough to police a galaxy, not even a little bit close. 10 such planets wouldn't be enough.

 

Even your estimate of 4,400,000 is a huge amount of troopers you have to admit it. To police an entire galaxy? no. I never said they policed it. I said they set up bases, stations ect... around the galaxies varios planets and moons.(Well the planets that are inhabited, or ones that could serve a purpose. Like endor.)

Still I think they have a large amount of soldiers(about 80% clones:cool:.) They are not all poor shooting fools . If not, then why havent the rebels kicked their butt's sooner?

anyhow we all have valid points. I cant wait to see what actually happens;)

[ET Warrior]

Actually 200K a year is probably less than they would put out....you are suggesting they only start making clones once a year......they probably start a new batch each week, and they probably separate them by months.....so i would say they get at least 200,000 each MONTH if not more......so then the numbers a much higher and here is something i got in the Homing beacon, straight from starwars.com

 

"It appears that Fett genes and low headroom don't mix. In an homage to the classic Star Wars misstep, wherein a stormtrooper bangs his head on a low-hanging door, Jango Fett also takes a wallop on the noggin -- complete with sound effect -- as he enters the Slave I after tangling with Obi-Wan. "

 

This implies that the stormtrooper in ANH had fetts genes. I.E he was a clone.

 

HOOHA

[Vestril]

Even your estimate of 4,400,000 is a huge amount of troopers you have to admit it. To police an entire galaxy? no. I never said they policed it. I said they set up bases, stations ect... around the galaxies varios planets and moons.(Well the planets that are inhabited, or ones that could serve a purpose. Like endor.)

Still I think they have a large amount of soldiers(about 80% clones.) They are not all poor shooting fools . If not, then why havent the rebels kicked their butt's sooner?

anyhow we all have valid points. I cant wait to see what actually happens

 

Yes, you didn't suggest it, but it's pretty clear that that's what they do. They even have a recognized presence on a backwards planet like Tatooine.

 

The rebels didn't beat them sooner because there are so many of them. Also, I doubt we'll ever have an authoritative answer on the subject...

[Norin Radd]

Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe

 

 

 

 

Now how is that supporting the EU? That is blatant disregard for the EU using the the very argument you used, but worded differently. Next time get your ducks in a line before you come knocking at my door!

 

 

 

 

 

I always have my "Ducks" in a line as you so eloquently put it, Sir. You should take your own advice and read the posts more carefully. I never said anything about endorsing the EU. I said that this Darvin Felth must have been an EU character. Now, another member has informed me that this is not the case, that he was a stormtrooper in ANH. The first time that I have heard of him. However, I stand by my original post. I'm sure you will stand by yours, as well.

[Jedi_Monk]

Or next to Han, which might alert a few people...

Luke wasn't standing right next to Han--Chewbacca was between them. Having an extremely tall creature between two humans--who are far more similar in height--would throw off perspective. Besides, who would pay any attention to Luke and Han when there was a freakin' psychotic Wookiee standing in front of you?

 

Yes, you didn't suggest it, but it's pretty clear that that's what they do. They even have a recognized presence on a backwards planet like Tatooine.

So? We have televisions that broadcast action from the middle-east. I've never seen an American soldier in full battlegear in real life, but I've seen plenty of them on TV. I'm sure there's plenty of overblown reports of Imperial victories that involve Stormtroopers and are circulated visually througout the galaxy--even to Tatooine. There wasn't much of an Imperial presence on Tatooine until the droids crashed there.

 

. I said that this Darvin Felth must have been an EU character. Now, another member has informed me that this is not the case, that he was a stormtrooper in ANH.

Darvin Felth is an EU character. He's SUPPOSED to be the Stormtrooper who said "Look sir, droids!"; the author created him years after the fact and injected him into an existing character with one line in the entire trillogy. He really doesn't exist as far as Lucas is concerned--at least that's what the evidence points to for now.

[Norin Radd]

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk

 

 

 

Darvin Felth is an EU character. He's SUPPOSED to be the Stormtrooper who said "Look sir, droids!"; the author created him years after the fact and injected him into an existing character with one line in the entire trillogy. He really doesn't exist as far as Lucas is concerned--at least that's what the evidence points to for now.

 

 

 

AHA!. . .thank you, Monk, O wise keeper of the Jedi Monastery.

[Vestril]

Luke wasn't standing right next to Han--Chewbacca was between them. Having an extremely tall creature between two humans--who are far more similar in height--would throw off perspective. Besides, who would pay any attention to Luke and Han when there was a freakin' psychotic Wookiee standing in front of you?

 

I still maintain that it's relatively obvious, even Leia who was laying down could tell that he was short--possibly because of the fact that his armor didn't fit right.

 

So? We have televisions that broadcast action from the middle-east. I've never seen an American soldier in full battlegear in real life, but I've seen plenty of them on TV. I'm sure there's plenty of overblown reports of Imperial victories that involve Stormtroopers and are circulated visually througout the galaxy--even to Tatooine. There wasn't much of an Imperial presence on Tatooine until the droids crashed there.

 

If I saw an American Soldier in full battle gear, I would be very nervous, and certainly not non-chalant. I found it somewhat discomfiting to wander through the airport and see men in uniform carrying big guns...just the thought that those guys could be in a bad mood and suddenly decide to shoot me is a variable I'm not used to dealing with--so I was much more cautious.

 

In mos Eisley, especially in the Cantina the regulars didn't seem suprised to see Stormies, even the Barkeep who wouldn't get around much, was fairly non-chalant.

 

What's more, look at the Dewbacks, I doubt they're standard on an Imperial Star Destroyer, so it would make sense that there was a base somewhere nearby.

 

 

Darvin Felth is an EU character. He's SUPPOSED to be the Stormtrooper who said "Look sir, droids!"; the author created him years after the fact and injected him into an existing character with one line in the entire trillogy. He really doesn't exist as far as Lucas is concerned--at least that's what the evidence points to for now.

 

As the member who gave the extra info about Davin Felth, I just want to point out that I said he was from Tales of Mos Eisley Cantina, and that I didn't think anything from EU belonged in this debate. I can see how my statement could have been misconstrued though.

[ET Warrior]

Well your points about people being worried about a stormtrooper presence MIGHT be valid, had we not been in the most wretched hive of scum and villany..Those people are not from tatooine, they've been all over the universe, they're freighter pilots and whatnot, and most of em are pretty bad dudes and have had run ins with Stormtroopers.....Or perhaps you were refering to the ones out in the streets........if you had fully dressed military man walking down the street close to you, would you stare? Or try to make yourself obvious? or would you just kind of ignore him....most likely you would ignore him, which is what those peopl ewere doing......i highly doubt the presence of an imperial base on every single planet, because if there WAS a base there, i don't think that Jabba the Hutt would set up his home there, and there wouldn't be so many smugglers. And also, Vader told his officer to send a detatchment party down after the escape pod, had there been a base, he wuold have told them to contact IT and have THEM look for the plans on the surface.

 

 

And i still stand by my statement that growth acceleration is implanted in their genes, and not injected, although i could be wrong, with the Kaminoans knowledge of Genetics, to be able to reduce the free will of their clones by changing DNA, i don't think it would be a problem for them to manipulate it to make them grow faster forever.......and THEN it helps out Kamino, but making continued clones essential as the old one get too old, bringing in more money, it's smart economics.