Republic in = Rebels out?

[Sithmaster_821]

Just an error in the booklet (they seem to have a lot of those)

 

If you want to make troops faster build another troop center for less than you pay for the upgrade and you produce everything faster not just laser troopers.

 

Anyway i still like the republic cause of their super medics and quick jedi.

[D'Blee]

So Cloners definitely does not offer a faster fire rate? That's a lot of nova for the faster production of a single unit, then...

 

Yes, the Republic medics are often overlooked in favour of Repeaters and Jedi but their mad healing skillz (remember that Republic also benefits from its team bonus, even 1v1) add so much to both of these... build 5 and work on a troop-based army with grenadiers and AA troopers backed by Jedi. Can work very nicely, though you'll need to be creative with Fortresses (Jedi can turn turrets fairly quickly and massed Grenadiers do a reasonable job on buildings).

[Kryllith]

Originally posted by Acidfreeze

 

I don't know, hearing "For the Rebellion!" every 5 seconds is annoying as well...

True, but I find it funny when I hear "Taking the safety off..."

 

Kryllith

[simwiz2]

starfighters are far from useless. against other humans (NOT a stupid ai) i have used them to completely wreck their economy. TWO adv starfighters (100 food 200 nova) slipped into my enemy's base and wiped out at least 8 workers (at least 400 food) in a matter of minutes and then escaped unharmed, though not before turning an overinquisitive TIE fighter to smoke. In fact I only had to leave because he put AA everywhere and I couldnt attack because the missiles would knock them out of the sky. Then I made use of the tech I had researched for teh Starfighters, MindTrick, sending in 5inexpensive republicmasters, and completely shut down his econ by forcing him to garrison all his workers. Later the Starfighters proved invaluable as spies, I was able to watch his every move, know when he would attack, etc. And they can just hover fight over the very center of the enemy empire completely unnoticed. It is almost like Bothan Spynet at a fraction of the cost.

 

And as sith has already said, starfighters are excellent against air cruisers. Both games I played against him I used these "worthless" starfighters to defeat him. He realized how useful they were once I used them against him. Republic beats Rebels, they have a "small edge" over them in almost everything so there is little reason to play rebels with Republic available.

[Sithmaster_821]

Training speed -- Is rarely the deciding issue in a game. You can train units instantly but lack the resources to do so (think Perfusion Goths in AOC). Often, you can get the same benefit of faster training by just making additional Barracks etc. anyway. An improvement to make Migdols train faster just saves you the cost of 3-4 extra Migdols."

 

That was a quote from Greg Street the lead game designer of AoK (which this game is very much based on) about a tech in AoM that has a wider and greater effect than Kamionoan (sp?) Cloners. It isnt as good of a bonus as most of this forum thinks it is and i would rather have quality troopers than crap ones that come out every second.

 

In a recent game, I was playing someone who kept on sending clone troopers at me. It didnt matter that he could build an army of 20 in 30 secs, they still died in the hands of dark troopers and atats. Also, there arent better civs, just different ones and favorite ones and simwiz who ever your opponent was must have been a total moron to allow this to happen.

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

 

In a recent game, I was playing someone who kept on sending clone troopers at me. It didnt matter that he could build an army of 20 in 30 secs, they still died in the hands of dark troopers and atats. [/Quote]

 

Yes, my ally was a complete moron.

 

and simwiz who ever your opponent was must have been a total moron to allow this to happen.

 

LoL

[D'Blee]

SimWiz, the trick you describe could have been done more cheaply and just as effectively by four fighters, unless your opponent had a ring of AA turrets with no detection at all surrounding his entire base at the time you went raiding. Calling him a moron might be a touch harsh, but most good players will put a turret or a couple of AA units in or near resource spots - had your opponent done so, the fighters would have gone down as quickly as normal aircraft. I repeat that the Jedi Starfighter uncloaks not just to attack but also during the pause before it attacks. There is no hope of your decloaking and surprising opposing units unless they are in transit - because they will spot your expensive Jedi planes as they decloak and sit there for the requisite few moments, and will doubtless use that time to tear apart your investment. Jedi starfighters work OK on moving armies, but then again so do normal fighters. Using them en masse as attack craft is extremely wasteful, since the Republi have access to fully upgraded advanced fighters for less than half the nova cost.

 

I agree to an extent about their use in reconaissance, but even then I fear that many good players will have reasonable sensor tower coverage and, if you are playing the Republic, probably bounty hunters as well. To expect them to "hover over the very centre of the enemy empire completely unnoticed" is optimistic to the point of naivete.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do like the Starfighter for its unique spying abilities and I use them myself. I'm merely pointing out that its uses are limited and that conventional aircraft are much better in almost any combat situation.

 

The Rebellion has, on balance, the best airforce in the game, closely followed by the Naboo. The Republic comes a very definite third. The Republic also trails the Rebels on troopers IMO, although this is a much thornier issue. Republic mechs are better, as are their Jedi. Note that every single one of these differences is very slight - yes, even the Jedi one.

 

Incidentally, when you said

took out at least 8 workers (at least 400 food) in a matter of minutes

I sincerely hope you meant "seconds" - otherwise those workers must have been extremely buff

[simwiz2]

Well he had fortresses/AA around his base, but for some reason didnt build outsposts at any point in the game. I originally sent the two right to his base to scout it out, but all those undefended workers was too good an opportunity to pass up he had bounties and dark troops going back and forth but I had sight beyond sight, and could usually spot trouble and move to another part of the base. I dont think it would have been possible with fighters, as any that got past the AA (which would have homing sensors by then) would be eaten by his many AA mobiles (which were at one point right under my invisible starfighters) Abmittedly it took me more than "seconds" to destroy all the workers, partly to low rate of fire, but mostly because starfighters are expensive so I was being a bit overcautious with getting them away from where they were last seen before he could bring in detectors.

 

And they spy thing probably wouldnt be very effective against most people, i dont know maybe Sithmaster wasnt aware that sentry posts could be used as effective detectors, he never buiilt any and didnt discover any of my hovering starfighters until he happened to run a bounty hunter near them which was on its way to try and prevent my cloaked masters from slaughtering his workers.

[J-5]

Originally posted by D'Blee

Don't get me wrong, I do like the Starfighter for its unique spying abilities and I use them myself. I'm merely pointing out that its uses are limited and that conventional aircraft are much better in almost any combat situation.

 

That period before the Starfighter fires really needs to be shortened. I could see if SWGB was limited in detector units, but this is definitely not the case. There's the probot, darktrooper, royal crusader, bounty, scout mech, sentry post, and more. At least the fortress can't detect anymore or else starfighters would really be cooked.

 

 

The Rebellion has, on balance, the best airforce in the game, closely followed by the Naboo. The Republic comes a very definite third. The Republic also trails the Rebels on troopers IMO, although this is a much thornier issue. Republic mechs are better, as are their Jedi. Note that every single one of these differences is very slight - yes, even the Jedi one.

 

I don't think the Rebels' airforce is hands down THE BEST, but I'm willing to compromise on that one. However, you will never be able to tell me that the Rebels have better troopers than the Republic ! At best, Rebel troops and Republic troops are even (one comes out faster and sees farther and the other is sturdier).

 

The difference between Rebel and Republic Jedi is huge, not slight. Republic Jedi move 10% faster, see much farther due to sight beyond sight, are built from a cheaper building, and don't forget the holocron bonus. It is naboo's Jedi who are close to the Republic's.

[Sithmaster_821]

If the Rebels wanted to see far, they would use sentry posts/scouts. If they wanted to make troops faster they would build a cheap little troop center. If the republic wanted quality troop the only thing they could do is convert them which kinda negates their production bonus. Also you do know that the prodution difference between the Rebellions troops and the Republic's is one second. Not much faster even with the production queue filled. Most of the Republics trooper produce speed comes from universal (and cheaper) techs.

 

Dont believe me listen to the experts

 

Also, the starfighter is too expensive and attacks too slow to be really useful but if they increase fire rate to like say a fighter, then they will be unbalanced. I think slightly higher attack would be a better solution.

 

 

(Quoted form Sidious from prior link)

In the two 1v1s i played against Gandalf he was Rebs I was repulbic and got this tech and no matter how fast i pumped them out..........His reb troopers with 20+ hp raped them with ease.........

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

If the republic wanted quality troop the only thing they could do is convert them which kinda negates their production bonus.

 

 

The republic HAS quality troops already. So they dont get the 20 extra hitpoints that Rebels have, that's like saying the Rebels don't have quality troops because they don't get 30 extra hitpoints like the wookiees do. You make it sound like Rebels can just build an extra troop center and produce QUALITY troops while the Republic just pumps out CRAP troops. Not so. If you want crap troops play as Naboo. But arguing that the Repulbic has crappy troopers as far as quality goes is stupid. Republic gets all the standard upgrades. And let's not forget about the medic bonus. It is a bit harder to kill a unit when it is being healed as fast as it's being damaged.

 

An interesting test would be: 1 rebel troop and a medic VS 1 republic troop and a medic. Of course in a game you wont have a 1:1 troop/medic ratio, but you can still get closer-to-actual results than saying "Rebel has +20 hp so they are better"

 

edit: typos

[Sithmaster_821]

First of all, "Tougher Armor" gives +20 hp (not +10, maybe you misread the manual?) bonus to the Rebs at a very low cost (even in CC).

 

Secondly the Republic does have crap troops because, unlike the Naboo or TF, the republic is supposed to excel in troops (read first post of the thread), and have the standard is not exactly exceling if you ask me.

 

Originally posted by simwiz2

And let's not forget about the medic bonus[/Quote]

 

Originally posted by me

i still like the republic cause of their super medics[/Quote]

 

'Nuff said.

 

Also, responding to the question at the very beginning, the Republic jedi that "go bad" when they pick up holocrons is a bug in the game, but it doesnt really affect gameplay.

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

Secondly the Republic does have crap troops because, unlike the Naboo or TF, the republic is supposed to excel in troops (read first post of the thread), and have the standard is not exactly exceling if you ask me.

 

And I guess wookiees have crap air, because they supposedly excel in air yet they have only the "standard" upgrades.

 

And the trade federation must also then have crap mechs, because other than the "standard" upgrades their only bonus is their UU, which despite being quite effective is not exactly an upgrade. And why not add in the empire to the ranks of crappy-strengths as well, pre-CC all Walker Research did was reduce minimum range, definately not better than Kaminoan Cloners. And it sure doesnt help much against Republic Jedi.

 

And the Naboo must have crap air then, since they get only standard + advanced engines - and if anyone has found that speed advantage to be noticable in any way then plz tell me. I would definately have a significantly higher creation rate than an unnoticable speed difference.

[D'Blee]

The difference between Rebel and Republic Jedi is huge, not slight. Republic Jedi move 10% faster, see much farther due to sight beyond sight, are built from a cheaper building, and don't forget the holocron bonus. It is naboo's Jedi who are close to the Republic's.

 

Sorry, but no. The difference between Republic and Gungan Jedi is huge. The difference between Rebel and Republic Jedi is slight. Cheaper Temples are not a huge advantage - how many do you usually build? The Holocron bonus does not directly affect the strength of the Jedi, any more than the Gungan ore bonus affects the strength of their turrets. Sight Beyond Sight is useful but not useful enough to make a "huge" difference - remember it's LOS, not conversion range. The 10 percent speed bonus is nice but, again, not a huge difference - not unlike the Naboo's "Advanced Engines". Both civs have access to excellent Jedi Masters and can benefit enormously from using them. The difference, therefore, is slight.

 

Republic troopers are not "crap". The Republic has FU Repeaters, plus an extra enhancement in the form of Sight Beyond Sight. Wookie, Rebel and Gungan troops are directly superior in combat, as are Confed troops, with the caveat that they cannot be healed by medics. Confed, Rebel and Wookie troops enjoy superiority on the basis their ability to last longer in combat and thus deal more damage for an equivalent cost. Gungan Repeaters claim a much narrower advantage because they will start firing at units earlier due to their extra range.

 

However, the fact remains that massed FU repeaters are extremely useful and the Republic has a couple of unique techs that give them extra, if arguably peripheral, advantages. It is facetious to deride them just because the manual claims troopers as a specific strength of the Republic and because there are better Repeaters around.

[Darth Windu]

Also, remember that the Republic also get the Sith Purge upgrade.

[Sithmaster_821]

Everyone should calm down a little. We're geting a little too worked up over the fact that some people prefer the rebels over the republic:p A couple more smileys on posts would be nice.

 

That said...

 

D'Blee, altough the Rebels have good jedi, there's a much bigger difference between the two than you make it seem. The Republic has all of the jedi techs, the rebels are missing 2. Also the holocron bonus helps because more nova=more jedi. Faster speed is noticeable at least to me and is a great help. You can do the same stuff with both civs its just that the republic is better at doing it.

 

Simwiz, you are comparing geniuses and Dan Quayles:). Mechs and air have a lot of civs that have sub-standard units so the standard becomes good to have. On the other hand, troops have only 2 civs with sub-standard civs so the standard isn't as good. Also UU's are considered as advancing the civs ranking in different catergories (Hint: Look at the Rebels or the Britons in AoC). The Naboo bonus is seeable on bombers, and that combined with cheaper air thru taxation and holocron bonus (see above paragraph) leads to the nabo's strength in air. The Empire has cheaper upgrades, faster production (altough production isnt really worth anything), and a great UT (Were talking post-CC or else the republic wouldnt be here:) and that the tech brings the minimum range from like 4 to 1). And once again, you have to compare what each individual civ has compared to what others have, it is impossible to judge their strengths separately.

 

Also, a little FYI, this thread is bordering on idiocity:D

[Crazy_dog no.3]

At last. A cool newbie.

[Sithmaster_821]

Newb? Oh maybe to these forums.

[J-5]

Originally posted by simwiz2

The republic HAS quality troops already. So they dont get the 20 extra hitpoints that Rebels have, that's like saying the Rebels don't have quality troops because they don't get 30 extra hitpoints like the wookiees do. You make it sound like Rebels can just build an extra troop center and produce QUALITY troops while the Republic just pumps out CRAP troops. Not so. If you want crap troops play as Naboo. But arguing that the Repulbic has crappy troopers as far as quality goes is stupid. Republic gets all the standard upgrades. And let's not forget about the medic bonus. It is a bit harder to kill a unit when it is being healed as fast as it's being damaged.

edit: typos

 

OMG, thank you simwiz2!!!!!!!!!!

 

Directed to Sithmaster_821:

standard isn't excelling but the Republic isn't standard in troops! They get kaminoan cloners (which isn't as worthless as you wish it was), and sight beyond sight. I don't care how bad you think these techs are- the Republic still gets what other races don't.

[Sithmaster_821]

I'm looking at those techs from a cost perspective:

 

Sight Beyond Sight (325 nova)-This is a good upgrade for jedi and starfighters (stealth+large LOS=good scout:D) but for troops it really doesnt matter because I almost always have support units or seige units that can see farther (air, mechs, cannons, air cruisers, AA mobiles, ect.)

 

Kaminoan Cloners (400 food, 500 nova)-The high price tag and minimal effect (it ony affects training speed of laser troopers) make it a poor choice in RM. I could see a purpose in DM if your planning on repeater flooding, but even then you could build more troop centers or do the cheaper and broader universal techs (Droid Assistants, Efficient Buildings, and Automated Process).

 

The other civs troopers either have more cost effective or better techs or they dont have to spend 400 food and 825 nova on nelegible techs and can specialize in another area where they have meaningful techs.

 

One more thing, you all do realize that I am like the only one arguing for the Rebels, and yet you all persist to keep arguing. Jeez, I'm only one person, dont have to convert the world to the Republic:p

[Kryllith]

Don't worry about it. I'll take Fambaa protected gungan repeaters over republic repeaters anyday.

 

Kryllith

[D'Blee]

Hey, I like them both. I think that maybe "bordering on idiocy" is a little bit unkind. I'm quite enjoying this thread, since it bears little resemblance to the "Celts are LAMERZ and Britons OWNZ JOO" threads of yesteryear

 

I like both civs, and think they're just different enough to be interesting. Of course, if you prefer Gungans (Kryllith) then something is wrong with you and you're obviously a deviant.

 

A suffciency of smilies?

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Yep but could be more.

 

 

 

 

 

BTW I still think Alliance rules and Republic will fall, myahahahah

[jedi3112]

Originally posted by D'Blee

 

Ah, yes, but remember that post X-pack the Rebels even get the team bonus (even if you're playing alone) of increased farm food. Which can make a difference, especially on a low food map. This is the Rebels' important economic advantage.

 

Kaminoan Refit is the Republic counterpart, major drawback is that you need to have banthas on the map, think the Refit is more usefull on the long term

 

Naboo and Republic both get increased Holocron trickle.

 

Very usefull I'd say

 

The Airspeeder is extremely useful, as others have said. Still trying to decide about the A-wing. The Jedi Starfighter, on the other hand, has incredibly limited usefulness, much of which evaporates if your opponent plops sentry towers around the map - as I tend to. Were it not for that horrid delay before firing, they might have more of a use in hit and fade, but the time they spend uncloaked while the pilot searches for the trigger or whatever he's doing is frequently a killer.

 

I agree about the airspeeder, also have to decide about the A-wing. Jedi starfighter is usefull to counter aircruisers while underway the enemy can't see them coming, also, as every air unit it can evade the aircruiser shots, since no area effect is done in the air that is the killer for the aircruiser agains air units. If used the right way the Jedi Starfighter can be a lethal enemy.

 

Completely off-topic and apropos of nothing, but is anyone else upset that the mighty Republic Gunship is reduced to the status of a fast fighter? Look at the guns on that puppy! They should all fire five times each and drop a bunch of little Yodas on the enemy and then do cool stuff and have ball turrets and strafe stuff and... anyway.

 

Extremely upset about this only fires 1 gun in the game, in the movie it had 4 glass ball turrets with a clone inside, firing with superlaser effect (not as powerfull off course) 2 balls on the front chin of the plane and 2 forward firing blasters on the top, I would LOVE to have this in the game too, maybe as a seperate Republic Only upgrade, shouldn't be fast fighter but advanced fighter. Fast fighter should have 2 glass ball turrets. This fighter should also be able to transport troops. About 1 maybe 2 troops in a fighter.

[Kryllith]

If playing gungans makes me a deviant than I'm proud to be a deviant. What can I say, I like being able to turtle if necessary (and I make a tasty soup... actually that was probably in bad taste so just ignore it ). I like the gungans' ability to heal most things, especially their medics... man I hate it when people start shooting my medics and I have to pull in a worker to fix it. Give me gungun healing abilities anyday.

 

Kryllith