CreeP_303 Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Ok, i just saw EP II for the second time, so i think i was able to give myself a decent perspective of how it fits in with everything. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- originally posted by someone on another board What is the Real Prophecy of the Balance of The Force? We don't know yet, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't catch this the first time, but Mace Windu said something that pretty much seems to sum up the prophecy. "Remember, he is the one who is to bring the Force back into balance". Dwelling on that for a few moments, it seemed to support my whole thought on the entire saga...that the greater theme of it all is the notion of balance. The prophecy seem simple enough...the Force is out of balance..has been for some time...the Force will bring about one who will bring it into balance. I will give my explanation of how i see this and why I think Lucas' plot devices and explanations are not cop-outs. Where to begin about this....Luke. He is the one who brings this about, obviously not Anakin. Although there is a strange symbolism of a messiah who becomes antichrist and fathers the messiah. There is obviously a long-standing school of how a Jedi must control his or her (yes, i saw several female Jedi) emotions and psyche in order stay within the realm the "light side". Any attribute exhibited by those of the darkside is forbidden. But, if the Force is out of balance...the Jedi are out of balance. Jedi dogma refuses to utilize a large part of the emotional rainbow. By not embracing the darker side of the psyche and learning to control it, they suffered the consequences. To use a simplistic analogy, it's like going through drug & alcohol "education" in school...only to be a party where someone shoves a big, fat doobie in your face and a bottle of JD in your hand. All you've been told is that they're bad. While some people can bite the apple and enjoy it responsibly, others dive head first into the barrel before they know what they're getting into. Along those lines, a Jedi has forbidden emotions or feelings enter his mind or is tempted with them by someone else. Without ever having been trained in their use and control for productive means, they are left open to succumb to their destructive aspects if not outright embracing the darkside. Yoda himself comments that arrogance has become increasingly common among younger Jedi. (whether or not Lucas intended, i see his portrayal of the conflict of dark and light partly as a commentary on human civilization's tendency to suffer in light of its overwhelming demands of morality, regardless if it's The Church, 21st century liberalism, etc.) By the end of the story, all that's left of the known masters of the Force are two sith lords and a young Jedi. Luke is left to his own devices...he doesn't have the influence of generations of Jedi dogma staring at his face. In Ep. 6, he does venture into the darkside and does it without falling to it. As a Sith, the emperor is as out of balance as the Jedi were. He tempts Luke with his anger and hatred seemingly in the belief that doing so can only mean joining the darkside. Balance does not mean being in a state of static alignment. I see it more as someone walking the highwire, moving side to side in a controlled manner with their balancing stick. And I think that's what Lucas tried to show...Luke takes his lightsaber to open a can on the emperor and enters the duel with Vader...utilizing his anger to fight fire with fire. With that said, i don't see the end of the saga as redemption for Anakin as much as i see it as Luke restoring the balance (i'm not going to debate the future since the official story will forever end there) and thereby restoring Anakin. To put it briefly, Luke vanquishes Vader...instead of finishing the job, he tosses his lightsaber and tells Sidious he won't join him as the emperor was certain he would. Certainly, this being the climactic moment of the entire story, there was a tremendous wave in the force, one strong enough to restore Anakin to his natural self. Through Anakin, the Force takes its final step to rid itself of the imbalance and the Emperor, the symbol of the darkside, is destroyed. The moral aspect is completely overshadowed...throwing the Emperor to his doom was less about Anakin doing a "good" thing as it was about a former slave-boy being finally being freed from all that had ever enslaved him...including his Master and himself. And now i can talk a bit more about young Anakin. I definitely like what someone said previously that Anakin doesn't really choose the darkside as much as he simply falls into before he's entirely aware of it. The seeds are definitely planted and I'm very curious to see how exactly he becomes Vader. He's a great character. He's a kid who loves his mother and has a sense of justice and order for the greater good of all. His mother's death obviously leaves him with a great sense of sorrowful hatred. When he says he wants to be the most powerful Jedi of all, it seems qualified with the purpose of saving others since he could not save her. It also seems like his anger at Obi-Wan for "holding him back" comes from his sense that he feels he could do so much more to help people if only he could work faster to advance his skills and be a full-fledged Jedi. My basic thoughts on Ep III is that Palpatine enlists Anakin to aide him personally under the guise that he can be some kind of uber-guardian of the Republic. Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus (Dooku) continue to manipulate the Trade Federation, et. al into a war with the Republic as part of Sidious' plan to gain acceptance in a play towards declaring himself Emperor. It appears they were also using the rebellious factions to help design and possibly build the Death Star. Skip to the end where all but Obi-Wan and Yoda remain of the Jedi, Obi-Wan goes to Tatooine to watch the newborn Luke from afar and Yoda goest to Degobah. Maybe Lucas will have an official explanation for the existence of the cave. I dunno. Oh...on a final note, as far as JarJar is concerned, even though he's an annoying piece of CGI crap, i do like how Lucas is using him as a useful plot device. It could have caused a stir if a senator who wasn't a slack-jawed buffoon had introduced a bill to give the Chancellor his emergency executive powers. Plus, at least all the JarJar haters can say "Jar Jar caused the Empire!!! what an asshat!" and if anyone wonders why i might have spent a bit of time actually discussing a movie like Star Wars....i would like to point something out. Stories such as Star Wars and Dune are not technically Science Fiction. Something like Star Trek is more like Sci-Fi, although most die-hards would consider it to be Speculative Fiction. What I'm saying is that just because a story takes place in a setting with strange looking races, advanced technology, and spaceships, it doesn't mean that those backdrops are the important element. George Lucas isn't some egghead talking about some experiment gone wrong whereby giant brains are taking over the earth. From his story and from interviews, I know he's done his research....be it from Goethe and Wagner to Taoist beliefs. He intentionally made his story about the various human themes which are prevalent in any story by any writer worth their salt....otherwise, a story would have no interest. When people turn their noses to Star Wars and relegate it to geekdom, i laugh. Yes, there are tons of hardcore fans that are geeks and miss the boat by spending too much time celebrating the visual aspects of the movie. But compare Lucas' story to something like Wagner's Ring Cycle. In that story, it takes place in underground Dwarf kingdoms, mystical lands, and Valhalla with many non-human characters like dwarves, water nymphs, gods, etc. Scholarly l33tists consider Wagner's work to be intellectual fodder, but many play down Star Wars as something lesser. But Lucas deals with similar types of archetypes and struggles of humanity and the human psyche....and to audiences of the 19th century, the Ring Cycle was the same type of fantasy world as Star Wars, just in a different type of fantasy setting that people of the 20th century could appreciate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Hrmmm, an interesting post. It seems to hit on most of the points of Star Wars... There is obviously a long-standing school of how a Jedi must control his or her (yes, i saw several female Jedi) emotions and psyche in order stay within the realm the "light side". Any attribute exhibited by those of the darkside is forbidden. But, if the Force is out of balance...the Jedi are out of balance. Jedi dogma refuses to utilize a large part of the emotional rainbow. By not embracing the darker side of the psyche and learning to control it, they suffered the consequences. To use a simplistic analogy, it's like going through drug & alcohol "education" in school...only to be a party where someone shoves a big, fat doobie in your face and a bottle of JD in your hand. All you've been told is that they're bad. While some people can bite the apple and enjoy it responsibly, others dive head first into the barrel before they know what they're getting into. Along those lines, a Jedi has forbidden emotions or feelings enter his mind or is tempted with them by someone else. Without ever having been trained in their use and control for productive means, they are left open to succumb to their destructive aspects if not outright embracing the darkside. Well...I disagree with some of those points. I think that really a Jedi is not supposed to allow himself to be dominated by those feelings. It would be unrealistic to tell someone to freeze out certain feelings, and if you noticed, Jedi do get annoyed, or sad, or many other feeliings. The trick is to let those feelings run their course, rather than holding onto them. Sometimes when I get angry, really angry, I force myself to stay that way as long as possible, the person that made me angry presents opportunities for me to forgive them but I hold onto my anger, just because it feels good to be in a position where I'm right, and someone else is wrong. That is the place where a Jedi cannot go, where their emotion (regardless of which emotion) permates their being. That is also part of the reason why they are not allowed to 'love' as we know it, because love is an inherently 'full' emotion. When we love, it is more often than not with all of out soul. To my thinking the reason that Anakin fell was because he had already had a taste of the depth of those emotions, he had tried the JD before anyone told him it was wrong, to follow your analogy, and couldn't give it up--he was hooked on being controlled by his emotions. This follows nicely when you consider that the Jedi Order has only lost 20 full Jedi to the Dark Side, Jedi who most likely were first pushed away from the Order (like Dooku, who was a bit of a rebel) and then at some point allowed themselves to cross the line. With that said, i don't see the end of the saga as redemption for Anakin as much as i see it as Luke restoring the balance (i'm not going to debate the future since the official story will forever end there) and thereby restoring Anakin. To put it briefly, Luke vanquishes Vader...instead of finishing the job, he tosses his lightsaber and tells Sidious he won't join him as the emperor was certain he would. Certainly, this being the climactic moment of the entire story, there was a tremendous wave in the force, one strong enough to restore Anakin to his natural self. Through Anakin, the Force takes its final step to rid itself of the imbalance and the Emperor, the symbol of the darkside, is destroyed. The moral aspect is completely overshadowed...throwing the Emperor to his doom was less about Anakin doing a "good" thing as it was about a former slave-boy being finally being freed from all that had ever enslaved him...including his Master and himself. To an extent I would agree, except I wouldn't say that it entirely an act of redemtion. Anakin fell to the Dark Side because his emotions were more powerful than he was, he came out of the Dark Side for the same reason, it's just that the momentum of those emotions pushed in a different direction. I think it showed how volatile and maddening being ruled by ones emotions is, and showed the preference and power of those who control their emotions (like Palpatine, who directs his rage elegantly, or Yoda, who allows his emotions to flow through him, but not direct him). Even Luke has control over his emotions, he relents the power his rage gives him at it's peak. Anakin destroys the Emperor, showing the power of his emotions, but then he dies, showing the price. Anyway, good post a lot of really interesting ideas, and good points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_FinnSon Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Good post, CreeP. I agree with you that some fans don't seem to understand what this whole saga is about or little nuances of the story, but instead look at the irrelevant aspects like how good effects are, how annoying acting is, clumsy dialog and so on. They simply don't see the forest for the trees. Like you said, it's not science fiction, but more like a fantasy, a modern day myth/fairy tale(I suggest you read Joseph Campbell's "Hero of the thousand faces", because that was basically the book Lucas used as a reference when he was writing original trilogy) which uses Flash Gordon imagery; some of the droids and ships of Confederacy of Independent Systems are almost straight out from 50s science fiction movies. He even said himself that "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." is his way of saying "once upon a time...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda_623 Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Very well documented Creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda_623 Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Very well documented and thought out Creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreeP_303 Posted June 18, 2002 Author Share Posted June 18, 2002 thanks it was a result of me sitting here a lot and reading midless driel about how this and this sucked and blah blah blah. i thought i would throw my take on how i see star wars and such. it's nice to throw a little more variety into the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreeP_303 Posted June 20, 2002 Author Share Posted June 20, 2002 bump up for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zindell Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Hmmm I enjoyed reading that and in alot of cases I agree. Most people will never see a movie for more than its effects. The other day I was in a store Buying a DVD of an old classic movie I liked. It had original Ideas and was quite enjoyable. A man in his mid 30's (I'm only 19 btw) in line behind me was like "You are buying that? that movies effects were crappy when it originally came out." My response was simple as i did not want to start a debate in line at a store, was that I enjoyed it and that's what matters. At this point the man snickered to himself as if he had won or something. But the last laugh was on me for when I looked in his hand he was buying the movie Black hawk down, A movie with all effects and barely any real story. The arrogance of some people astound me at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitedragon Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 you people and your long damn threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreeP_303 Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Zindell Hmmm I enjoyed reading that and in alot of cases I agree. Most people will never see a movie for more than its effects. The other day I was in a store Buying a DVD of an old classic movie I liked. It had original Ideas and was quite enjoyable. A man in his mid 30's (I'm only 19 btw) in line behind me was like "You are buying that? that movies effects were crappy when it originally came out." My response was simple as i did not want to start a debate in line at a store, was that I enjoyed it and that's what matters. At this point the man snickered to himself as if he had won or something. But the last laugh was on me for when I looked in his hand he was buying the movie Black hawk down, A movie with all effects and barely any real story. The arrogance of some people astound me at times. word up to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woad Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Zindell Hmmm I enjoyed reading that and in alot of cases I agree. Most people will never see a movie for more than its effects. The other day I was in a store Buying a DVD of an old classic movie I liked. It had original Ideas and was quite enjoyable. A man in his mid 30's (I'm only 19 btw) in line behind me was like "You are buying that? that movies effects were crappy when it originally came out." My response was simple as i did not want to start a debate in line at a store, was that I enjoyed it and that's what matters. At this point the man snickered to himself as if he had won or something. But the last laugh was on me for when I looked in his hand he was buying the movie Black hawk down, A movie with all effects and barely any real story. The arrogance of some people astound me at times. Well it did have a story, it just didn't try to be more than it was. For example there was no fluffy love story, i.e Pearly Harbour, it was almost like a documentary expressed in a fictionalized manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterD-LeyAmas Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by CreeP_303 What I'm saying is that just because a story takes place in a setting with strange looking races, advanced technology, and spaceships, it doesn't mean that those backdrops are the important element. George Lucas isn't some egghead talking about some experiment gone wrong whereby giant brains are taking over the earth. I wholehartedly agree with you here. While most people either just think "hey Star Wars is really cool" or "that's just geeky sci-fi stuff", it's based not only themes that hit close to home, but also loosely on our own history, I believe. The whole idea of the Jedi/Sith wars (this especially applies in the EU), are based on the clan rivalrly that took place in ancient Japan. The whole idea of the Jedi itself, the noble protector with the sword as his tool, who follows a strict code of moral guidelines, is based on the samurai (or knights, for that matter) Then, the story itself. First, you have the glory days of the Republic. Then, the leader of the republic declares himself emperor, and the republic his empire. After some years of this, the emperor is overthrown, and the empire diminishes. Sound familiar? Think Rome. Not to mention, the way Palpatine takes power is exactly the way Hitler rose to power in Germany. By manipulating the masses and gaining loyal followers, he is able to rise through the government to become Chancellor (the same title Hitler held before he took complete power), then ruler of the entire republic. I really do hate it when people dismiss Star Wars as being some sci-fi nonsense... Just my thoughts on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zindell Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Woad Well it did have a story, it just didn't try to be more than it was. For example there was no fluffy love story, i.e Pearly Harbour, it was almost like a documentary expressed in a fictionalized manner. Yes well for that it was ok. it was not a terrible movie. I just wish I could have seen a little more story. Things happening between the characters. an actual plot development where they would think up a neat course of action and then execute it but it seemed like they were just being shot at the whole time and shouting at eachother the most basic things. I enjoyed it for what it was it told a story of what happened, a true story. It wasn'T meant to be your average movie I agree. I guess it might be also that right after It I saw we were soldiers which I thought was a terrific movie. Despite my thinking it would be overly Sappy I enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Knight Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 dude i like star wars a lot but you confused the hell out of me i do agree with you about the geek stuff though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lime-Light Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Very thoughtfull and intelligent post CreeP. I do, however, believe that Star Wars is the story of Anakin, and while Luke was the focus of the OT, Anakin is the one who brings balance, by destroying the Dark side and accepting the lightside in death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke12946 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 a though about that prophicy thing (sp)- anakin was supposed to rebalance the force, did he not do that by destroying the jedi? it wasnt quite balanced with two sith and a thousand jedi.... also, MasterD-LeyAmas is right , it is almost exactly how Hitler got power. ive been a SW fan since i was small, and seeing the prequels showed me something- i was wrong about the Empire. The republic deserved to be destroyed- they were horribly ineffective at controlling their own galaxy. it is very similar as to how rome fell- got bigger and bigger, but then what should have been regarded as pin pricks went strait through their heart and killed them. granted, the empire ruled with an iron fist, but atleast they could keep planets inline...even if their methods were questionable. Lucas did get his inspiration from history and such, the similarities of Palpitines ascention, the way the republic fell, the similarities to ancient Japan...look closely at the Clone ships in EPII- is it just me or do they resemble AC-130 Gunships with WWII style bubble-gunner capsules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lime-Light Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by luke12946 look closely at the Clone ships in EPII- is it just me or do they resemble AC-130 Gunships with WWII style bubble-gunner capsules? Thats kind of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDove Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Technically Anakin did bring balance to the force. The only reason force was not balanced was because the Sith existed (apparently they were existing all the time), so Anakin threw the master into that pit, and died himself, therefore removing the Sith and bringing the force back into balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterD-LeyAmas Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Come on now, Kal-El. You can't be saying that having all good Jedi is balance in the force. There's an ancient idea (I can't remember exactly where from) that at any one given time, there is just as much evil in the world as there is good, and at the time of the new trilogy, this is horribly out of balance. I believe that the prophecy of "bringing balance to the force", which the Jedi Council believes means will eliminate all evil, actually means that it will balance back out the evil with the good. After all, this IS what happens, and then everything starts over when Luke is the only remaining Jedi in the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woad Posted June 22, 2002 Share Posted June 22, 2002 Originally posted by Lime-Light Thats kind of a stretch. Actually I remember reading Lucas did base those ships of just that. Lucas has always taken alot from WWII era combat and weaponry, remember that the X-Wing vs Tie dogfights in the OT were based around WWII dogfights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted June 23, 2002 Share Posted June 23, 2002 I started reading Frank Herbert's DUNE novel (after watching both screen versions of the story) and I've got a hunch that this was yet another "inspiration" for George Lucas's saga (along with the tales of King Arthur, the Hidden Fortress, spagetti westerns, cliff hanger serials, and Flash Gordon. In fact, the first three DUNE books were written before ANH (1965-1969). So many similarities.... the corrupt Empire, the rival orders of telepathic adepts (Bene Gesserit, Mentat, Guild) the messianic figure with incredible mental and physical prowess that developes after he sheds his "green" beginnings, etc. The centering around a harsh desert world (Arrakis). Of course the power struggle is centered around concrete physical resources (spice melange, potable water) rather than simply territory and freedom as in Star Wars. In the original story, Luke was motivated to seek out Vader because he wanted revenge for the death of his father (until he learned that Vader in fact WAS his dad), much as Paul does in DUNE. Heck, even the Baron Harkkonnen reminds you of Jabba the Hutt (albeit less alien). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreeP_303 Posted June 24, 2002 Author Share Posted June 24, 2002 mmmmm, mental stimulation....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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