Natty Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 Not sure if these thoughts have been brought up before, so apologies if they have OK, me and my boyfriend saw episode:2 again last night and I can't remember how it came up, but we got talking about Qui Gonn being Dooku's apprentice, and so we came up with the following thoughts, just wondering if anyone has ever had similar thoughts. If you think of the Jedi right, when they die, they dissapear (Yoda, Obiwan, all the Jedi at the battle on Geonosis) but in episode:1, how come Qui Gonn didn't dissapear? The answer is coz he part of the dark side coz when they die, they don't dissapear (Darth Maul, the empire, Darth Vader). Of course that brings it back to the point there's always only ever 2, the apprentice and the master that's true, but in reality, there was only 2. Sideous and Darth Maul/Dooku and Qui Gonn. The thing is, Qui Gonn must have known that Anakin- the chosen one was on Tattoine, sure he can say it was the will of the force, but considering that the dark side clouds everything, Palpatine would have already known that and told Dooku who woulda told Qui Gonn. (considering only Dooku actually knows who Sideous is, and for that matter Dooku points out that Qui Gonn would never have gone along with it if he had known who actually was the leader of the dark side- well not in so many words, but I think that's what he's getting at) My boyfriend pointed out that Sifa-Dias is Qui Gonn's Jedi Council name before he was kicked off the council (I must admit I didn't realize he actually was on the council at some point) which explains the look of almost horror/surprise on Obi Wan's face when the Kamino Prime Minister says the order was placed by a Jedi Master Sifa-Dias (coz obviously Obi-Wan must have known that Qio Gonn was kicked off the council) which why when he asks Windu and Yoda he was under the impression he died before that (considering Qui Gonn died 10years ago roughly and so did Sifa-Dias according to ObiWan) If Qui Gonn hadn't been killed, it seems pretty obvious that he would have trained Anakin as the dark side, but had to train Obi Wan properly- most likely because the Jedi council woulda gotten sus or something (I can't think how to explain that bit) One thing I don't get is why Darth Maul killed Qui Gonn, my guess is he didn't know that in some way they were both on the same side. What does everyone think? I know I'm rambling a bit- but if you can get passed the ramblings, then is there possibly a connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellFyre69 Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 are you saying that Qui Jon was a sith!!! How dare you!? Qui Jon never ever joined the dark side. If your saying that Dooku trained qui jon, then dooku joined the dark side, that makes qui jon a sith? Wrong... Why? because Yoda trained Dooku? does that mean that Yoda is actually a sith?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted June 19, 2002 Author Share Posted June 19, 2002 I didn't even mention Yoda- apart from when Obi Wan asked him about Sifa-Dias Yoda is definatly a jedi- duh but even if you are trained as a Jedi (which everyone is) you would still need some form of training for the dark side, which is what I'm getting at Sideous trained Dooku and Darth Maul (at different stages) and in turn, Dooku trained Qui Gonn. If Qui Gonn is a jedi, he would have vanished as soon as Darth Maul struck him with the light saber, but he didn't ala Darth Vader. Also coz Dooku points out that Qui Gonn knew all about the corruption in the senate but would never have gone along with it if he (Qui Gonn) had learned the truth as what I (meaning Dooku) had. The truth being the senate was controlled by the dark lord of the Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natwa whitta Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 qui was never apart of the council. He was always to much of a "rebel". Remember whe obi-1 said in ep 1 that if he kept this up, he'd never be on the council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellFyre69 Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 jedis doesnt necesarilly "vanish"... When they vanish they join with the force. You have only seen 2 jedis vanished and you think that all jedis are suppose to vanish? Plus sidious never trained dooku. He was all ready train by yoda (DUH). And you don't see those jedi's corpses vanishing when they died, in the battle scene against those droids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted June 19, 2002 Author Share Posted June 19, 2002 Yeah I never thought he was on the council either (same reason, ObiWan said he would never be on the council if Qui Gonn kept behaving like he does) but I know what my bf can be like- maybe I shound never listen to him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 Originally posted by HellFyre69 And you don't see those jedi's corpses vanishing when they died, in the battle scene against those droids. Hey good point about the fallen Jedi's in the Arena battle. Like the one Obi-Wan took his pulse on. I think it is a descision you make just before you die. You have to let the midiclorians take over you body and you become a spirit I would asume. I guese some didnt have the time to meditate or get into that state of mind before dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osama Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 or maybe because after the vanishing jedis died, it has a different emotional impact, which is what lucas coulda been after, and it doesn't really matter if they vanish or not i actually have no idea what im talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 I agree with MotionMan. The jedi that vanish were at peace, in a sense, with themselves before they died. Yoda has the time to reflect and think before he died as did Obi wan. The other jedi we have seen never vanished because they were killed before they were ready to die. At least that's how I put it together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 Originally posted by immortal I agree with MotionMan. The jedi that vanish were at peace, in a sense, with themselves before they died. Yoda has the time to reflect and think before he died as did Obi wan. The other jedi we have seen never vanished because they were killed before they were ready to die. At least that's how I put it together Excellent. That could be it. "ready to die" Jedi's who are ready to die or have accepted death, are at peace with themselves and one with the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted June 19, 2002 Author Share Posted June 19, 2002 OK- I get what your saying, but that just leaves me with one problem. Dooku says that Qui Gonn knew all about the corruption in the senate, but would never have gone along with it if he (Qui Gonn) had learned the truth that Dooku has. I know it has something to do with Palpatine somewhere, but I dunno what, which is why that whole part is confusing me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 Originally posted by Natty OK- I get what your saying, but that just leaves me with one problem. Dooku says that Qui Gonn knew all about the corruption in the senate, but would never have gone along with it if he (Qui Gonn) had learned the truth that Dooku has. I know it has something to do with Palpatine somewhere, but I dunno what, which is why that whole part is confusing me Dooku wasnt being totally honest with Obi-Wan. He did tell him the truth about the sith lord controlling the republic. What he said about Qui-gon was more of an effort to make Obi-wan side with him. Dooku knew that if he talked about Qui-gon being anti-republic , it would have more of an effect on obi wan. When Obi wan turns down dooku's offer . That is when dooku decides to kill/execute Obi-wan. At the same time Dooku was working with his master, Darth Sidious. So Dooku basically lied to obi-wan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenom Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 He was trained by Dooku before he became part of the dark side, there is no way Qui-Gon Jinn was a willing participent in the Dark Side of the force. I had heard a rumour that he ordered the clones posing as Sifo-dias, but hadn't before heard he was previously called by this name - was this in the movie or is it an assumption based on they both died 10 years b4 EPII? I beleive the theory that is mentioned above about being ready to die explains Q-G's death also.. Qui-Gon was a rebal, but was loyal and certainly not a traitor - if he was helping the DS he was tricked into it by his old master... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husuris Posted June 19, 2002 Share Posted June 19, 2002 DISSAPEARING / SPIRIT First of all Vader dissapears and becomes a spirit. We see him in the final scenes of Ep.VI with Yoda and Kenobi. What is burnt in the pyre is only his mask and suit. The "ready to die" concept is good one to explain why Qui-Gon did not dissapear. Of course we saw jedis that did not dissapear after their death in Ep.II I always thought that if a jedi dies as master then he becomes a spirit A jedi master means that the person achieved a full harmony with the force and knows most aspects of its force. Dark jedis and Sith do not dissapear because they use the force the wrong way and the force after their death does not accept them. Some facts: Yoda was a master for a long time and dissapeared Kenobi wasn't a master but living as a hermit for a long time became a master and dissapeared Vader regretted for his actions and being one of the greatest force-sensitives dissapeared. Qui-gon was killed by Darth Maul and did not dissapear Some hypotheses now: If Yoda was killed by Dooku then we would have dissapeared If Anakin or Kenobi was killed by Dooku then we would have not dissapeared. If Dooku was killed by Yoda,Anakin or Kenobi then we would have not dissapeared being a dark jedi. SIFO-DYAS QUI-GON CONNECTIONS First of all there is a question answered by the jedi council in starwars.com for Qui-Gon's dissapereance. The address is http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc/steve/askjc20000131.html (the question posed in January 31, 2000) My thought are that Qui-Gon ordered the clone army before Ep.I because Dooku asked him to. Dooku most probably revealed most of his plan to Qui-Gon about the Separatists but never mentioned that he answers to another man (Sidious). Of course Qui-Gon did not know that Dooku was corrupted, even the jedis do not know that in the beginning of Ep.II So Qui-Gon helped the dark side without knowing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mez1109 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 I always thought that the force had to be controled by the Jedi, if not controled properly it would in some way take the Jedi over and turn him into a sith Lord. As Yoda says, that too many Jedis a sure of themselves, meaning that they are also ready to use the force anytime to get their own way. Remeber Obi in SW4, Vader did not even kill him. Obi 1 stopped fighting, held his saber vertically with the saber point pointing uppwards, then a split second before Vader could hit him, he just dissapeared. So Jedis probably know when they are going to die, maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassick Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Not a single Jedi disappeared in the arena battle. Their bodes maybe disappeared if they were covered in sand.... They only disappear when they become one with the Force, and only the most powerful Jedi can do that. (probably only Yoda knew how to do it, and he later taught Obi-Wan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellFyre69 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 I kind agreed husuris... the only dissapering jedis are only Jedi masters.. Not a single Jedi knight dissapears in the whole sw series. Darth vader might have reach the lvl master, when he sac himself to save luke, and at the same time killing the emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Originally posted by HellFyre69 I kind agreed husuris... the only dissapering jedis are only Jedi masters.. Not a single Jedi knight dissapears in the whole sw series. Darth vader might have reach the lvl master, when he sac himself to save luke, and at the same time killing the emperor. Obi-Wan becomes a spirit. He never acheives the title of master. But I do trully believe that Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master in my mind:) Straight from starwars.com: The term "Master" is occasionally used as an honorific to a teaching Knight -- especially by non-Jedi -- even if he has not yet achieved the status of Jedi Master. Obi-Wan Kenobi never achieves the formal rank of Jedi Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellFyre69 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 yeah i know about that... But now think, In ep4, obi wan, and yoda are the only remainig jedis in the whole galaxy.. While time passes, Obi will sure become a jedi master, since a jedi master is only an well experienced Jedi knight... I just makes sense that obi will become a jedi master. Even though rite now, he's only a jedi knight, Yoda has a HUGE expectations about him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 But obiwan wouldn't have been practicing the force while he was hiding on tattooine, it would have made it more likely for Vader to find him and kill him. I don't think that the Jedi must be a master, i think it's simply an acceptance of death, and a period of meditation to join with the force before they die. Thus we never see the jedi knight on Geonosis disappear because they die in a furious battle, where death is unexpected and sudden I always thought that the force had to be controled by the Jedi, if not controled properly it would in some way take the Jedi over and turn him into a sith Lord. From ANH Ben: the force flows through all living thing Luke: You mean it controls our actions? Ben: Partly, but it also obeys your commands The force does not want to create siths, because it also partially controls the jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mez1109 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 After Obi Wan helps Like achieve what he wanted, he disapears. Yoda disapears when he finished teaching Luke. Darth Vader disapears when he saves his son, kicks sith ass and removes his helmet that kept him alive (Wait up, isn't Vaders body burnt, and then the his spirit appears with Yoda and Obi Wan). I first thought that if a Jedi is sure that he has no more unfinished business, he disapears. Now I am thinking, as Vader never disapeared, that when the body dies naturally OR the best reason is that the NEXT stage of a Jedi is the spirit. As Obi Wan says that Vader doesn't understand that death is not the end of a Jedi, but actually makes a Jedi most powerful as he/she is one with the force. Vader was using the suit to stay alive for longer, technically his body was already dead. Obi Wan wasn't a Jedi Master OFFICIALLY, as there was no more Jedi council to decide his status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 hmmm interesting. Ill have to say good post. You made some good points. see we are not all nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellFyre69 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Well that makes sense, that darth vader was all ready death... By reading these post, i remember that Darth vader didnt disapear rite? his body was burning.. maybe thats wut happens to siths, when they are about to die. They dont dissapear... They only burn to death =( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 Originally posted by HellFyre69 Well that makes sense, that darth vader was all ready death... By reading these post, i remember that Darth vader didnt disapear rite? his body was burning.. maybe thats wut happens to siths, when they are about to die. They dont dissapear... They only burn to death =( Vader disapeared. They burned his helmet and suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellFyre69 Posted June 20, 2002 Share Posted June 20, 2002 i c... i guess i'll watch ROTJ again. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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