FatalStrike Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 Originally posted by Areoch 1.02 Good: Saber battles were quick, dodging was a must and if you timed it right you could block...maybe. Bad: People Use nothing but red, drawing battles out to 15 minutes of chickensh*t people who don't have the nerve to face each other and have a close battle. Force matches get drawn out because people just use heal/drain like water. People use DFA every other swing again drawing out battles to a long bullfight match with people DFAing and spinning like a blender, killing everything with one touch, at least you had the 0.1 second to counterattack. DFA is balanced, still one hit kill but now you have to actually aim it. Enjoy Nice rant man! However your logic is flawed in my opinion. First you said people used nothing but red, this is wrong. I am one of the best FFA players in 1.02 (at least in the servers I visit). I am not saying this to be cocku and I will not claim to be THE best. However I ONLY use medium in FFA duels, and so do most good players. Heavy is easier to beat with medium than any other stance. Second DFA is not used as much in duels anymore because loyal 1.02 players can all counter it fairly easily. I am not joking, new guys laugh at you for DFAing too much, they are used far less often then they used to be. DFA in patch is not balanced, it is killed. Aim? you can't aim a slow move at a good player that know how to strafe well. You may land a hit now and then but the risk is too high for intelligent players to risk it. The result is not balance, it turned the DFA into a move with more risk then reward. However I do agree with you on the blocking thing. Block is too low in 1.02. Also the DFA should be fixed so as to not cause damage when its on the ground. You think these changes make it so people have to fight face to face? Why when blocking also protects both your sides and some of your back? I understand what you are saying but you are doing exactly what I am against. You are ruining the game for those that love it and get good at it because you don't like a certain move. Add one to counter it! Don't remove it! To understand what I am warning you people about please see the post that followed Areoch's rant. Please see what this mind set of removing and weakening moves leads to. QUOTE]Originally posted by Psionic_Chaos That's exactly what is going on. People don't care about all the other moves; Just the one that does the most damage. And yes, seeing that one move being performed by everyone on every server does get boring and thus the fun is lost. Seriously, I don't think this situation will ever be corrected until all sabre moves do the same amount of damage, and all force powers can be plausably countered. That way, there would be hardly any spamming (But the spamming won't mean anything), and everyone can enjoy JK2 online with interestingly varied battles! Or something... Until ALL saber moves do the same damage. Do you see where this mind set is taking us. This is what I mean we are giving up variety for the sake of balance! This must STOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Your not worth the bandwith...That was interesting. Was that a computer-jargon cut down I sense? I feel....empowered. That may have been the funniest thing I have read on these forums (aside from turbo gay). Red stance 9 times more powerful you say? Which server are you playing on again? You know, that new saber damage scale command makes all the moves more powerful when enabled. Red being spammed now you say? Do you have any idea how easy it is to counter a heavy swing? Obviously, not, for you are complaining about it. You say I am complaining? Yes, I am complaining about people like you who ruin this game. You are the people who put the idea of nerfing backstab, or dfa, and whatnot into raven's head. It's too bad that Raven listens to the consumers so much...kind of ironic. It's good they do, but at the same time, people complain so much about moves they can't counter because they are skilless themselves and can't think of a way to counter them because, well, they aren't bright enough or quick enough. Every move you can get away from and every move you can counter quickly. The fact that you said people SPAM HEAVY is hilarious. It's a SWING not even a freaking "combo." You said you never said you were skilled? No, but you sure insinuated you were skilless with comments such as those. Instead of complaining about moves and counters, and swings, and whatever you feel the need to complain about, GO PRACTICE. You CAN counter these moves that you die to time and time again, just put a little brain power into it. I also love the comment it forces other people to spam moves to counter it. That was classic. I could use light stance, no lunge, and take out someone "spamming" red stance with it without losing shields. In fact, I HAVE. Countless times. Please, before you start posting erroneous and false information on this forum, take the time to read over what you are saying, because, at the moment you sound like a complete moron, save your, "Your not worth the bandwith," quip. That was most entertaining. -Rosco: The Prince Of Space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
<>Phant0m<> Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 This is supposed to be a constructive thread icefox/rosco plz dont insult, just disagree and explain why without the Flames/insults, its better that way for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 It's just too easy to dismiss someones reply as flame, isnt it though? Very easy. If you would look it over, I make many a valid statement. By the way, are you the thread starter? Just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous* Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Well done icefox, least you put your opinion across this time, instead of just flaming me. appreciated. Ok heres my argument: Yes, I am complaining about people like you who ruin this game. You are the people who put the idea of nerfing backstab, or dfa, and whatnot into raven's head. I havent once complained about any move, or any stance, or any improvment/ajustment to the game. Look at my posts carefully, you'll see that iam not bothered about how powerful a move is, or how counterable. ITS THE PEOPLE THAT USE THEM I dont care how more powerful one move is to another, I wouldnt care or suggest to raven to insert or remove moves from the game, or make moves less powerful. Its people who endlessly go on about them that drive me to the brink of insanity, i dont care how people you've killed with dfa, or how many people you've pushed off ledges, or how many n00bs you've embarressed, (no the above werent directed at you icefox) Its just people that spam moves, and then have the audacity to brag about it that gets to me, Thanks icefox, Youve brought an interesting light to the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 17, 2002 Author Share Posted July 17, 2002 This is a thread that I started for a real discussion on turning this annoying trend around. This is my attempt to make a argument that has yet to attempted. All I hear is nerf this and nerf that! I am sick of it! Please stop fighting and join me in my mission to clean up this mess that complainers have gotten us into. Marvelous - your statement about heavy was not very well thought out and I think that is why Ice Fox is riding your Butt. However your arguments later are much better and you make some good points. Ice Fox - Don't you think that you are riding Marvelous a little too much? Cut him some slack man, he hates noobs that ruin the game and thats fine. As long as he understands that players shouldn't tell others how to play because many people my find his style annoying. Anyway remember to remind people that WE WANT MORE, not less in upcoming patches. Everytime you find a thread that want less, be sure to write your opinon demanding more! I don't want Raven seeing anymore unchallenged nonsense form whining playes. Thanks for reading this thread and please support this objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Areoch Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 Well thanks for the reply and taking the time to read Fatalstrike, people who usually disagree go straight for the kill without even bothering. But you assume an opinion that I don't have. In my post I clearly said >>I don't like nerfing but I can see the reason behind it considering how people act. << Since I said this on the fourth line I think after you gone done reading through the rest of the post in particular the timeline you forgot that I said that in the begining :\ I wasn't arguing for more nerfing, I was just trying to state the reasons behind it. Which is basically people in general are bloody abusive morons. <><> Fatalstrike: First you said people used nothing but red, this is wrong. I am one of the best FFA players in 1.02 (at least in the servers I visit). I am not saying this to be cocku and I will not claim to be THE best. However I ONLY use medium in FFA duels, and so do most good players. Heavy is easier to beat with medium than any other stance. <><> With what I said, I was trying to highlight the 'bad' aspects of 1.02 so I was exaggerating a few of the bits. Of course not everyone used heavy but on some servers when one person did it, everyone else would start to do to in a domino-like effect I myself was a medium user too actually and my favorite tatic would be to simply run up to the guy and keep my crosshair perfectly centered on his saber so I would block then I followed it up with a triple hit medium spin (remember those? ) <><> Fatalstrike: Second DFA is not used as much in duels anymore because loyal 1.02 players can all counter it fairly easily. I am not joking, new guys laugh at you for DFAing too much, they are used far less often then they used to be. DFA in patch is not balanced, it is killed. Aim? you can't aim a slow move at a good player that know how to strafe well. You may land a hit now and then but the risk is too high for intelligent players to risk it. The result is not balance, it turned the DFA into a move with more risk then reward. <><> DFA, I still think that the move is usable and as long as you don't repeatedly use it over and over it can always be your trump card. It was never meant to be a primary attack nor the killing machine that it was in 1.02. Its a special move. You do high risks for high gain, when you can kill someone in 1 hit instead of 6-10 it better damn well be hard to do. And concerning with those that you are say that are experts at 1.02. Well whomever is still playing 1.02 is obviously not playing for the DFA spamming. Not everyone who uses 1.02 is a spammer nor is everyone who uses 1.03 a BS'er. The jackasses that ruin the game are most likely on 1.04 now. <><> FatalStrike: You think these changes make it so people have to fight face to face? Why when blocking also protects both your sides and some of your back? <><> And again I still think that Raven had good intentions, but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Obviously they messed up or we would be having toe to toe battles with noone complaining hmm? My guess is that there is a circle around your player of percentages in a gradient going from from to back in 1.02 it was so low you probably had a 0% percent of blocking anything coming at your flanks. They probably raised blocking chance in general instead of just forward which had a side affect of putting blocking where it wasn't suppose to be or was suppose to be very low. Hope that makes sense to you . <><> Fatalstrike: I understand what you are saying but you are doing exactly what I am against. You are ruining the game for those that love it and get good at it because you don't like a certain move. Add one to counter it! Don't remove it! To understand what I am warning you people about please see the post that followed Areoch's rant. Please see what this mind set of removing and weakening moves leads to. <><> Now I am happy that you are treating someone who you think you disagree with so nicely but I wish you wouldn't be so damning. Really we are on the same side here. They should add to the game by all means but you have to remember most of the people are too immature to handle it they don't play for the sake of the game. They rather run backwards or cheat to get their way. I hope this long post has cleared up some things for you Fatalstrike thanks again for not turning on the burners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted July 17, 2002 Share Posted July 17, 2002 So what can you do? Force people to stop "spamming"? That would entail making it so that the same move can NEVER be done twice in a row... do you want that? That's not quite as drastic as making all moves do the same amount of damage, but it's close... IMHO. It sort of reminds me of the time (in another FPS game) somebody came up with an "anti-camping" patch, because they felt camping was so evil that they had to force people to stop doing it. I'm not sure how it worked exactly.... but I know that one time when I was playing Quake3 and I just sat there for a certain amount of time it gave me an "inactivity warning" and so I had to start moving... maybe it kicks you. But I digress.. The way I see it, people WILL spam the moves that work for them, regardless of what anyone says. The only way to stop them from spamming is to change your tactics so that their spamming technique starts to work against them (like, let's say they're doing jumping attacks constantly, so you grip throw them into a pit, or you do jumping attacks of your own... etc). If I am in a game (and trying to win) and people keep falling for the same trick I do over and over, naturally, I'm going to want to keep doing it... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 Areoch - Thank for posting your comments and taking the time to write such a thought out argument. You wrote <>And again I still think that Raven had good intentions<> Well I know an old saying that fits just right in this situation "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" Anyway I don't agree with you about what Raven wants. I think Raven wants to keep thier customers happy. They are responding to the feed back they are getting and so far the only feedback they are getting is from these whiners who want everything taken out of the game! It makes sense if you think about it. Why would I who liked the game as is want to take time out of my day to write to Raven. But those that couldn't win (and can't admit that they lose because they suck) all wrote to Raven demanding a patch. And they did it again after 1.03 becuse they still couldn't win. And they are probably writing Raven right now to have kicks nerfed. So I say that the rest of us who like the game and wnat more from it instaed of less start writing to Raven as well! And to Kurgan who asked how do you stop people from spamming? First: I don't think you can spam a stance. That just seems silly to me. If you can play well with a stance why fight with one that you are bad at? I suspect the people that say "you heavy spammer" are just griping because they have trouble fighting against a heavy user. Second: If you want to stop people form spamming "special moves" why not make them take a small amount of force to use them. For example DFA could take 1/3 of you force to use (but a full strength DFA, not the stupid one form 1.03 and up) You see if we actaully take time to think instaed of blindly demanding a move get nerfed we can find ways to balance things fairly without destroying the variety and fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Well, what I have been trying to say since 1.03 in countless threads is that we need more in patches not less. The term "patch" means there is a hole in something and it needs to be covered up with something, in order for the device to function properly. Never in that did I hear take away even more, that usually will just make a much bigger hole and it will work worse in the long run. =( Sorry for going "The Buck Wild" (Tm.) on Marvelous, but that comment to me was the epitome of skilless "n00b" comments, but now I know he/she did not mean it, so I feel mucho better. But, thankfully Marvelous and the rest of you people seem like nice intelligent people who make valid statements... but there are many others out there saying stuff like "omg now cuz them whorez can spawn backstab they spam red stance." Which is not good, because Raven seems to be listening to them. I like Raven okay, I think they are trying a bit hard on that end of the company...most people it SEEMS they listen to are people who lose in the game a lot, because they are always taking away the quicker and more deadlier attacks...and never adding. So, what I guess I'm trying to say is, we have to make OUR voices heard over the masses of people who take the game too seriously and complain like madmen about dying to moves that they deem un-counterable, etc. Thanks for your time, I hope you all will read my post. =) P.S. I am a FIRM believer in ADDING things in patches and tweaking various "wrong" things, not removing and nerfing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous* Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 The term "patch" means there is a hole in something and it needs to be covered up with something, in order for the device to function properly. Good point, but unfortunatly, people suggest to raven, that the "hole" is a certain move that is causing too much damage, And that it should be covered up, thats the problem. Although it must be said, raven do an excellent job. ANd we wouldnt be here without them, so .. thanks. btw icefox, i love ur sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Heh, thanks. Yes, Raven is patching up something that doesn't have a hole to begin with. =p What they need to do is start adding things in patches, I don't know about the rest of you, but, I would be awfully suprised and happy if I found in a new patch a new stance stance, or something like that, that would just blow me away... but...instead I knew what EXACTLY was going to be coming in 1.04....sigh. Oh well, maybe they will learn with time hehe. I guess Raven is okay, (There home office is just a few hours away from me, maybe I should go chat with them about jkii, lol), but I dunno...I can't fully respect a company who just makes games on the quake engines. I would love to see Raven take a chance and design a game from scratch, instead of glorified Total Conversions. Hehe. =p Just kidding...in a way. =( I think every Raven game is on a Quake engine? Am I correct? I'm not tottaly sure...I think even Heretic was on the Quake 1 engine. Ah well, they try and they are a bunch of nice guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeraphimII Posted July 18, 2002 Share Posted July 18, 2002 Its because games make on other games engines are... 1.) Faster to make. Less time = Less money, generally. 2.) Are tried and tested. They know the engine will work, but they don't know if how they mod it will or if its balanced. 3.) Cheese is a dairy product. Meaning it comes from milk. Yea...3 reasons sound better then 2.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 18, 2002 Author Share Posted July 18, 2002 I don't care if they use a Super Mario Engine (yeah I know there is no such thing ) as long as it plays like this I am fine with it. Just bring back the proud saber battles of 1.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Did I say that that was bad? Did I say the game plays bad? Did I say that? Hmmmm. Anywho, all I meant was I can't respect a group of people are are just a Total Conversion team making money than a company. Like Id, I can respect. They make all their own engines and games, but, I hate all of their games. Always have. I guess RTCW is decent...well, not really. All of them are SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT, no storyline, nothing. But Raven's games I like. Oh what a tangled web we weave..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiteche5 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Wow. Good posting on everbody's part here. It got a little heated but people explained themselves well and it came back to normal DISCUSSION. Ok. Now for my 2 pennies. I loved 1.02. Was it perfect? No but the gameplay could not be matched IMHO. As it was said in other posts it had a high learning curve for a FPS. The DFA was being spammed not because it was something "n00bs" would fall for but because gain outweighed the risks for the most part. If you all remember the counter for it was to either 1. Push when he went for the move at the beginning. Or 2. Strafe and throw. If you remember you could not approach the person because even when the saber was buried it did full damage and the person could pivot. And the hitbox was large on that move so people who did not have the best connections could still get hit by the move. I have a feeling the move would have went out of style if people learned how to counter it and it would have been used the way it was intended....as a finisher. Now here is what I think everybody is arguing in this thread. People complained about the move instead of learning to counter it and Raven adjusted the move by nerfing it A LOT. I think it would have been sufficient to adjust the hitbox PERIOD. I would go into the force powers but that will take too long. But we know they were toned down (nerfed A LOT). The main complaint is nothing was put in to compensate. And I agree with this. We are left with fewer and fewer options that are not fun options to boot. Our solution is to make suggestions to add stuff to the game to balance instead of take away but here is my hard spot with these posts. I here the backbiting and "n00b" and "skill-less" name calling and I can't help but wonder why are we pointing the fingers at each other? "The n00bs got what they wanted" In my gaming experience developers do listen to the majority and come up with a solution. However they also weigh in time and cost. Raven took out things because it is easier to do that than to add stuff. Additional saber moves mean more coding and testing thus more money. It is true people complain and want stuff removed but do you really think that Raven comes to the boards and reads the e-mail and says "Yep, this guy is right let's take it out right away!!" NO. My point is let's stop the backstabbing (not in 1.03 ) and splitting the community into factions. In order for our voice to be heard it has to be the whole community instead of the "skilled" players because the "skilled" are fewer in number. As much as you hate "n00b" they are the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucMan55 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 [noob]OK...I'm not going to start a new thread, and I haven't seen it in the readme or the manual. So: What's DFA stand for??? I know it's in the medium stance but that's it.[/noob] Please, be gentle.... As far as the patching problems: It's not the good players who use a backstab or a kick every now and then who will(or have) caused Raven to nerf the moves. It's the guys who want to have high hit counts on the FFA servers who abuse the system. And it's the guys who can't get a kill because of all the spammers who are complaining. The spam I've been seeing lately is the Lungers. They'd just sit there crouching. I'd wait for them to start running and them flip over them. It's be nice to give them a lethal backstab every now and then, but now it's about as effective as a kick. I got pulled/backstabbed several times, I also managed to get away from it while on the ground several times. I didn't mind it although it was a little annoying since they'd run around backwards looking for guys to BS. On my practice duels I set the saber damage to 3x so it doesn't take 6 kills to finish the opponent off. (I use 1.04) And a new move, why not a regular forward stab(like Qui-Gon did to the blast door). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiteche5 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 What's DFA stand for??? No problem. It stands for Death From Above. Which is from another game (Mechwarrior) It is given to both of the moves in medium and in heavy. Named that way because both moves involve you being in the air above your opponent and from the fact that they usually result in a dead opponent. It's not the good players who use a backstab or a kick every now and then who will(or have) caused Raven to nerf the moves. It's the guys who want to have high hit counts on the FFA servers who abuse the system. You see? This is what I'm talking about. We don't have to point fingers. Many people see these moves as the only viable options to the fight. Why should I stand toe to toe with you and take a chance on losing when I can do a special move that kills you? The spam I've been seeing lately is the Lungers. They'd just sit there crouching. I'd wait for them to start running and them flip over them. And you can turn around and hit them with one of your own lunges. You see you have learned to counter the move. If enough people did that then the person "spamming" lunge won't do it anymore and he will have to think about it before doing it again. So the move does not have to be removed or nerfed. That is what the cats are saying. And a new move, why not a regular forward stab(like Qui-Gon did to the blast door). That is something else we were also talking about it this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 I find that the "Combos" Such as lunge, DFA, and such, I find, WANTING my opponent to do lately. I had this feeling when I was playing 1.02 even more so, because they were deadly, but If I pulled off my counter it would look cool, be cool, and my opponent would be suprised, and sometimes respect me even more. Ah, those were fun days...Trying to find all the ways to counter DFA, and such. It's funny how in 1.03 people spammed so much more, I don't remember any backstabbing going on in 1.02, and barely any lunges, just a few DFA's. But anywho, I find that when I see my opponent do a DFA, I want them to do another one and I wait for it sometimes, because it leaves them so wide open. Same with lunge, right when i see a lunge, they leave themselves WIDE open on their sides, which I can exploit. I remember the first time I played 1.03, when I was swinging the saber, it didn't seem like 1.02, every time I would swing in 1.02, I would feel as if the attack would be very deadly, and care to cover my tracks when doing a combo or something, so my openings would not be exploited, but since 1.03 I KNOW for a fact most of my swings will be meaningless, not doing any damage, or none at all, considering how many are blocked and how the damage has been tweaked. 1.02 was pure skill, 1.03 was pure spam...I know that its the players that cause this to happen, but in a way the patch encouraged it, because the swings were so toned down swinging over and over again was the only way to hit someone, and kill them. I guess 1.04 is a VERY small step into a better direction, but, then again its not. I'm sick and tired of Raven just taking away taking away taking away. Enough is enough, Raven has to change their point of view and start ADDING things. Purely on a fan basis, I bet everyone would be VERY, VERY happy if they added a new stance for example, and these people may say to their friends, "Whoa this game isnt just becoming Pac-man, it's becoming something great with all the new stuff that Raven adds, man you should buy this game!" (Becoming Pac Man is reference to what eventually MAY happen if they keep "patching" the game the way they are.) Thanks for your time, I look forward to your responses. -Rosco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeraphimII Posted July 19, 2002 Share Posted July 19, 2002 Originally posted by icefox98 Did I say that that was bad? Did I say the game plays bad? Did I say that? Hmmmm. Did I say you said it was bad? Did I say you said the game plays bad? Did I say you said that? Hmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatalStrike Posted July 20, 2002 Author Share Posted July 20, 2002 Originally posted by icefox98 (Becoming Pac Man is reference to what eventually MAY happen if they keep "patching" the game the way they are.) Thanks for your time, I look forward to your responses. -Rosco No this game could never be a pac-man! Pac-man had those power pellets that he could eat to become stronger! If we had anything like that, people would demand that it be nerfed immediately. This game is turning into more a "pong" type game. Where both players must be exactly the same and neither of them can do anything surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icefox98 Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Did you insinuate that I said that it was bad? Did you insinuate that I said the game plays bad? Did you insinuate that? Hmmmm. My first message like this wasn't directed at you, Ser, nor will any message now on be. Stop flattering yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeraphimII Posted July 20, 2002 Share Posted July 20, 2002 Awwwwwww...Now I'm going to cry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homosexual Ewok Posted July 21, 2002 Share Posted July 21, 2002 v1.04 with the damage scale stuff is really great, actually it makes saber combat the best it ever has been, well since v1.02 at least. Problem is, 99.9999% of the server admins don't come here, know nothing about it, or simply run everything "default". No matter how hard anyone tries to get the word out, it's never going to be the norm. v.104 is by no means "unplayable". Nor is it impossible to "get kills". The problem with this patch is what "strategy" has now become. Full Force duels have been reduced to nothing more than 5 to 10 minute games of "run and heal". Before it was no big deal, if you were fighting someone who constantly healed, you just had to set them up for a high damage move. Now, I guarantee you, no matter how good you think you are, If you played me I could drag the match out until the Time Limit hit by simply running and healing. This is so utterly sad, but true. Up until this patch I have never seen a FF duel decided by a "Time Limit" win. Now it's almost nothing but those. CTF? Guns. Period. FFA? Guns again. I really do enjoy this game, but now, it's just so damn boring and slow. I kind of look at it like "flag" football, without the violence, what's the friggen point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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