JUST SAY NO TO NERFING! There is a better way!

[Chaynsaw]

I only stick to 1.02 and will as long as people are playing it. In my opinion, it is the best release - all the problems came from trying to fix it. It was most the balanced because a lot of attacks did effective damage, not just one or two. So DFA was overused a little and pull/backstab could be spammed.. but still DFA was pretty easy to flank and pull/backstab wasn't used as much since it wasn't the most or only effective combo, as it became in 1.03.

[crazyplaya73]

Just a thought, but I doubt all this "the patches SUCK!!!!!@!" talk is going to make Raven want to continue releasing patches.....

Well that's a relief... :rolleyes:

 

I think that the MOD makers can do a much better job of fixing the gameplay then Raven can.

[Captain Hagen]

What we're discussing is BALANCE!

 

How to develop a game without destroying the balance between either parts?

 

Playing FFA with guns? Is this JK or Quake?!?

 

Someone mentioned patch 1.09, it's a reality.

If you make it to difficult even the burning believers will leave us...

 

Saber must be increased at least in FFA. On the other hand, in SP it,s to powerfull...

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Lunatic Jedi

1. Scale up the damage on standard lightsaber attacks so people actually have a reason to use them.

 

I like this although I would also add that it may be a good idea to speed up the turning swings that medium and Heavy currently have. They seem to turn too slowly in my opinion.

 

 

Originally posted by Lunatic Jedi

2. Decrease the blocking arc. Maybe make it just the 180 degrees in front of the person. Maybe even less. Because no matter how acute a Jedi's blocking sense is, there's a reason why they're able to move with such speed and agility... because you can't just stand there and block everything that comes at you!

 

180!! Are you mad!! 90 degrees forward will make it more difficult to use yet big enough to be effective. Just face the hit, and it shall be blocked. I think people should have to EARN a block, so as not to rely on the game to do their defense for them. Also 180 just means keeping your enemy infront of you, and that is still a bit too easy for my taste.

 

Originally posted by Lunatic Jedi

3. Don't neccessarily nerf the special moves, just lame them up a bit so they don't become the only things anybody wants to use. After all, backstab, logistically, shouldn't do much damage. Its not really slashing a whole lot, just putting a neat little hole through the enemy. After all, Qui-Gon Jinn lived for about fifteen minutes after he got stabbed! DFA, on the other hand... well... its powerful, but no steering in mid-air! If you need mid-air DFA steering, make it very slight. Have you ever tried to change the direction of your jump in mid air in real life? Well I have, and its not easy.

 

LOL I want video footage of you practicing this mid air direction change! hahahaha....ehem....uh...sorry

 

DFA should be able to angle in the air BUT (yes there is a big BUT) it shouold not move once on the floor, to prevent stupid floor damage! I say let the DFA move 180 degrees in the air, after all you aren't going in another direction you are just aiming you saber that way. The DFA still carries you in the direction you were facing when you jumped. The difference is this makes getting out of the way of one a little more difficult, as it should be.

 

 

You wanted it to be controlled to prevent spamming:

 

Please note that I wrote that DFA should use up small amount of force (maybe 30%) and should be blockable. That way DFA will only land on folks that made a rather large miscalculation but still be controlled enough to be a feasible option in a duel.

 

Originally posted by Lunatic Jedi

4. I know I didn't really mention this, but if it can be done, PLEASE do it. Limit access to the console so that players can't bind moves. I'm getting sick of people pulling off a flawless combo with just one click or press of a key. If they want to pull off a great combo, they should master the sequences fair and square.

 

 

 

I don't think this is possible for tech reasons having to do with the Q3 engine. I agree that some scripts are lame.

 

Anyway thank you for your post Lunatic Jedi

[Captain Hagen]

1. We're in it for the Saber ? Aren't we?!

Or else, see you at CS....Saber must be our main weapon.

 

 

2. 90 blocking sounds fare, blocking in SP is ridicoulus..

[blackfire]

technobot,

 

While you articulated yourself with reasonable calm and intelligence,Did you even READ the previous posts before replying?

 

While the 1.04 patch may be relevent to the conversation, it was not the conversation. Now, I agree with you on a good part of your post, although not every aspect of it.

 

Most of what you have to say is more relevent to FFA than duels in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned duels are supposed to be a little like the movies, more drawn out and dramatic. Now that's not to say I want to spend 15 minutes in one duel, I do feel saber damage is way to weak.

I think saber code should be separate for duels and FFA. I personally hope to never see another patch from Raven again(unless the current one hasn't fixed the damn server overflow crashes on my server:p ).

I am from the one-hit kill camp, but I hate spamming of the same move. It's boring; I don't care if I win or lose, but I do want to have fun! Winning is always nice, but it isn't everything.

 

Just so you know how my server is set up:

 

seta kickchance "3"

seta wdam_kick "5"

seta saber_redbsmax "50"

seta saber_redbsmin "10"

seta saber_redspmax "300"

seta saber_redspmin "300"

seta saber_redmax "300"

seta saber_redmin "300"

seta saber_yellowbsmax "50"

seta saber_yellowbsmin "10"

seta saber_yellowspmax "200"

seta saber_yellowspmin "200"

seta saber_yellow "200"

seta saber_bluespmin "100"

seta saber_bluespmax "100"

seta saber_blue "100"

seta saber_bluebsmax "50"

seta saber_bluebsmin "10"

 

Initially I had BS damage the same as the rest, but I am so tired of seeing people running around backwards, that I made it lower.

An example of the complete idiots out there:rolleyes: :

I changed the damage on all BS and back sweeps to 2 one time and they still only tried to use those exclusively! That was with the other damage values the same as above and yes they did know about it, I warned them that I was going to do it if they didn't stop spamming. Hello:rolleyes:

 

If someone made a mod that changed all stances to the same speed, everything would have an identical damage value, although just as lethal. With the values this high, fights go very quick even with ghoul2 on. Believe me, you are cautious in your swings, you have to be.

The above cvars are from the Duel_SE mod wich is really good BTW, the values are mine:). I am also still running version 1.03.

 

Ok, that's enough of a rant for now.

 

One other thing, it wasn't just technobot that got off topic here, almost everyone who posted after him didn't seem to bother reading the previous posts, you just assumed what we were discussing.

[technobot]

ok since you went a bit off topic I will stay off topic:

 

I think ewok and a couple other guys have said, and I know I've said it, but this fascination with people running around backwards is absurd.

 

If you're a new player, you WILL get owned by a guy running backwards, only because you probably don't realize just how effective that backsweep (in 1.02 and 1.03) is.

 

If you've played since 1.02 (or have enough practice), guys running backwards should make you laugh, not cringe, because these guys are the easiest people to kill on the board. Sure it looks stupid, but if you have problems with these guys "dominating" servers, you should go to another server more your skill level because the guys who are supposedly "the sh!t" at this game should OWN these fools, everytime. I know I did, and yes, I abused pull/backsweep but the other pull backsweepers quickly learned not to run at me with their asses because it was instant death every single time.

 

I think duels should be a little longer, but the problem (IMHO) is this:

 

We have player A, who is legitimately "skilled". He accepts a duel from player B, who just started yesterday, and only knows how to spam the "hold the attack-button down, infinite blue-stance forward chop of ineptitude". Player A will probably win, but because ALL the moves have been nerfed (back on topic, happy?), it will take him awhile. For argument's sake let's assume the server is using the default setting, so saberdamagescale will be about 1. Let's also assume this is a FFA duel, no throws, kicks do no damage.

 

That's my point, it may seem weak, but it just takes too long to kill people. All this bullsh!t about "I can kill guys with one hit" are just that, bullsh!t, since with the default settings, I think anyone of us can prove that the blue forward lunge takes MORE than one hit, same goes for a red forward chop. Hell, I've had guys survive a CLEAN DFA hit... I'm sorry, if I can actually land that hit on my opponent it should kill him.

 

Fatalstrike: I totally agree with your idea of the blocking arc, it's been tossed around these forums for awhile now. If people want to show their skillz, so to speak, make them earn a block by ACTUALLY facing the hit as it lands, maybe relative to the crosshair or something.

 

To clear the air, I think pivoting in 1.03 is ridiculous, and opened up a whole host of exploits. I thought that running over a saber quite clearly buried in the ground and dying was also ludicrous. However, I think blocking a hit aimed at your back at the last minute is also "lame", and I think making ALL the moves equally useless (KICK IS NEXT CHILDREN) is just as ineffective. Many have said this before but the best option is to present the players with many options, which brought about the whole 1.03 debate in the first place: there was only one quick and easy option (read: effective) for killing, and that was pull/backsweep. Why did many "abuse" it? Well, because it worked, and everything else (i.e. truly "lame" random button-mashing blue/yellow combos) were simply ineffective because they were so easily blocked.

[Nobodi Kenobi]

This is going to be my last post on this forum for a while because I've actually un-installed JK II from my hard drive on purpose.

 

The reason?

 

I am not interested in the MP portion of this game anymore and it has nothing to do with the people playing it, but the game itself and the patches that Raven keeps cracking out that keep destroying - Yes, I said DESTROYING - What was once a great game and leaving NOTHING behind but a flashy, kiddie-based game with no substance or skill whatsoever.

 

This has everything to do with the 1.4 patch and previous patches.

 

For a little background on myself I am a fairly good player. I'm an average skilled player.

 

I'm not "leet" or Clan or Ladder level, but I used to have fun in all forms of gameplay except CTF (never played it with JK II) and actually, my specialty was NF Duels where I could go through ten people (5 client max list) in one sitting.

 

Now, I suppose I "suck" to all you "leet" and competitive players out there... But the fact is I was having FUN no matter if I lost or won. Especially, in dueling where skill really was tested and it was one on one in every sense of the word.

 

In fact, before Dueling, I was always "afraid" to go one on one with someone in another game (like CS, Quake, etc.) because I knew I would get my arse kicked and end up looking like a fool and probably bore the Hell out of the other person. However, with JK II, that "fear" was taken away because the lightsaber actually put me and that other skilled player on equal ground so to speak vs. just who had the faster trigger finger or best scripted config.

 

And again, with JK II, I still was having fun even if I lost.

 

Not anymore.

 

The patches have completely ruined this game and they KEEP ruining the game by taking away all the tools in the arsenal and making them weaker which of course limits the options - aka SKILL - You NEED to use them effectively.

 

1.4 is no exception.

 

While it nerfed BS and Backswing... WHY SHOULD IT NERF ANYTHING????

 

Saber damage in general, for ALL styles, has been nerfed to hell through previous patches and like many have said, there is NO use for the saber anymore regardless of what gametype you're playing besides dueling and even there, there is huge discrepancies regarding how long it should take to kill someone depending on moves (blocking, three or four direct hits and they DON'T die???)

 

And the saber is what attracted 99.9% of JK/SW fans to this game.

 

And yes, I know there are various Mods and cvar/svr settings to tweak the game to be what you want it to be... But the fact is the BASE GAME that was put out has mutated into something that goes beyond even player preference in my opinion -- The lightsaber being nerfed a major part of that mutation.

 

I can of course go play on 1.2 servers, or 1.3. or whathaveyou... But WHY SHOULD I -- Or others -- If we want the fixes (the accidental deaths by lightsaber touches) the subsequent patches addressed?

 

Simple. WE SHOULDN'T.

 

There should be ONE base MP game standard that can allow for minor tweaking of player perferences and that's it. Not fifty Mods, three servers settings, etc, etc

 

So, in closing, I hope to one day come back to JK II if I find that the patches have restored it to at least a level to where it is FUN...

 

Because I'm not having any fun anymore.

 

And while this may kill some people to admit this, I represent a large portion of why people play games and who games are primarily marketed to.

 

Peace

 

P.S. - I now await the flaming by all the "leet" players in bidding me "good riddance, you unskilled Noob. You're part of the reason Raven nerfed the game in the first place. STFU and leave you then!"

[blackfire]

"ok since you went a bit off topic I will stay off topic:"

 

Point taken and true:p

 

"That's my point, it may seem weak, but it just takes too long to kill people. All this bullsh!t about "I can kill guys with one hit" are just that, bullsh!t, since with the default settings, I think anyone of us can prove that the blue forward lunge takes MORE than one hit, same goes for a red forward chop. Hell, I've had guys survive a CLEAN DFA hit... I'm sorry, if I can actually land that hit on my opponent it should kill him. "

 

I agree

 

"To clear the air, I think pivoting in 1.03 is ridiculous, and opened up a whole host of exploits. I thought that running over a saber quite clearly buried in the ground and dying was also ludicrous. However, I think blocking a hit aimed at your back at the last minute is also "lame", and I think making ALL the moves equally useless (KICK IS NEXT CHILDREN) is just as ineffective. Many have said this before but the best option is to present the players with many options, which brought about the whole 1.03 debate in the first place: there was only one quick and easy option (read: effective) for killing, and that was pull/backsweep. Why did many "abuse" it? Well, because it worked, and everything else (i.e. truly "lame" random button-mashing blue/yellow combos) were simply ineffective because they were so easily blocked."

 

I also agree

 

 

"If you've played since 1.02 (or have enough practice), guys running backwards should make you laugh, not cringe, because these guys are the easiest people to kill on the board. Sure it looks stupid, but if you have problems with these guys "dominating" servers, you should go to another server more your skill level because the guys who are supposedly "the sh!t" at this game should OWN these fools, everytime. I know I did, and yes, I abused pull/backsweep but the other pull backsweepers quickly learned not to run at me with their asses because it was instant death every single time. "

 

I agree and disagree, here's what I mean:

I do laugh at the idiots who run around like this and do usually "own" them, but that isn't my point.

I would rather get owned by someone who uses variety in their moves than own an idiot who doesn't. The fights are very boring against people who spam moves and I mean any move, not just bs. I don't care how much I "own" them they never seem to learn and change their tactics which is boring.

 

Think of it this way, your playing chess against someone. They make the exact same moves every game and lose to you every game, where's the challenge? The challenge is the fun! Not whether I can beat them every time. Being repetitive is boring period, whether it's in this game or life. As they say "Variety is the spice of life".

[MrYepp]

well one of the problems is that there aren't enough options or moves that one can effectively own with. in 1.02 there was a lot of options, in 1.03 there was pull/backstab, and in 1.04, there's just kicking, and it's puny damage makes it hard to kill someone in the first place

[technobot]

Blackfire, good points but back to the chess analogy:

 

if I my opponent constantly loses to me, despite the fact that I use the same opening every time, and I know that I will win every time, why change my tactics? I might "spice" it up once in awhile for "variety" however if your only goal is winning, then this is the easiest way to do it.

 

don't get me wrong, I've said it before, I was a pull/backsweeper however if I jumped on a server and no one was doing it, I wouldn't. if one guy started, I would have to do it myself to stay competitive. And I will agree that this whole pull/backsweep debacle was the death knell of the competitive JK2 community since it was VERY repetitive, but believe me, there are many guys out there that just want to win, and I can't begrudge them that.

 

And despite the fact I'm not a huge fan of this patch, I still play 1.04 because I agree with the notion that instead of bitching, one should just practice and deal with the new rules.

[technobot]

Blackfire, good points but back to the chess analogy:

 

if my opponent constantly loses to me, despite the fact that I use the same opening every time, and I know that I will win every time, why change my tactics? I might "spice" it up once in awhile for "variety" however if your only goal is winning, then this is the easiest way to do it.

 

don't get me wrong, I've said it before, I was a pull/backsweeper however if I jumped on a server and no one was doing it, I wouldn't. if one guy started, I would have to do it myself to stay competitive. And I will agree that this whole pull/backsweep debacle was the death knell of the competitive JK2 community since it was VERY repetitive, but believe me, there are many guys out there that just want to win, and I can't begrudge them that.

 

And despite the fact I'm not a huge fan of this patch, I still play 1.04 because I agree with the notion that instead of bitching, one should just practice and deal with the new rules.

[beta_sigma]

well....... i have been playing this game for some time, and i still suck @ mp. the funny thing is , i dont even care. i just have fun playing because i like star wars and saber combat. i must say that i agree completely with the original post by fatal strike. put this guy in charge of this games fate.

 

i die contstantly at this game (now it just takes longer), but i never whine. its just part of the game for me. what i have noticed (as have the rest of you), is that the saber is getting weaker. i say, make the saber really lethal again, lower the effectiveness of auto block, dont nerf any moves.....add more. add more variety instead of taking away my options. i want to die every which way that i can, and the quicker i die, the harder i will probably try to not die.

 

neways....im at work so i cant really concentrate on this post, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

 

guys running around backwards do suck though =).

[Homosexual Ewok]

Nobodi Kenobi sorry to see you go dude.

I said it before and I will say it again, the "Nerfing" stuff does not hurt the guy who plays 9 hours a day or has developed into a "pro level" player.

It hurts the "average Joe".

Those "cheap” moves gave guys like Nobodi Kenobi the chances they needed to take out a player better than them.

Some of you may have a problem with that, but I don't.

If a guy who is nowhere near as good as you guts a few kills of you, so what?

No one wants to play if they can't ever win.

If I got nailed with a lucky backstab from some newbie, I always said "N1", even if was a sloppy random hit.

You make a person have fun, that person continues to play and develops into a better player.

 

You punish and humiliate someone and they quit.

Personally, I want to see the servers full as opposed to the same 8 or 9 guys all the time.

[FatalStrike]

It is interesting to me that I have seen two polls that touch upon the 1.03 and 1.04 patches.

 

The one I have done is showing more people that dislike the nerfing everything, followed by people who just think 1.02 is the best. Very few like the result of nerfing, and I think 2 guys want more to be nerfed.

 

I have seen V-Teccs "which is the best version Poll" and 1.02 was tied with 1.04 at 22 votes each, last time I saw it.

 

I think from these to "mini" polls and form the comments I am getting it is pretty obvious that not many people liked 1.03 the most. Another thing that is becoming obvious to me is that a solution seems to be very simple.

 

Since the majority of people that love 1.04, love it for its NF duels. And the majority of people who love 1.02, seem to like its power.

 

So return all the special moves, but make them require force to use. That way NF duelers can have their way, and the rest us who would like options can have our way.

 

However the blocking arc needs to be reduced, get over that people, its too big and just plain stupid.

[FatalStrike]

can someone send me the names and the e-mail address' of the people you have had luck contacting at Raven. Please PM them to me if you can.

 

Thanks

[Nobodi Kenobi]

Homosexual Ewok and Et al.

 

One last thing before I go...

 

I just want to make it clear that I hope that you and others realize I am not ranting against any other player(s), their style of play or even my own style of play either.

 

It's mainly directed at Raven and L.A. for continually nerfing things that made the game fun to play.

 

And if anybody is wondering, I NEVER used backstab, backswing or DFA -- Well, effectively anway -- And I just want that to be clear as well since I will automatically be lumped in with the "1.4 whiners who miss their precious BS/BSweep" which is NOT the case by any means.

 

I just feel that they've (Raven) already destroyed the main weapon that attracted a lot of us to this game in the MP portion -- The saber -- And they keep nerfing other things like Force Powers and thereby generating new imbalances like the fast kicking and other things that probably would NOT have been imbalanced if they didn't mess around nerfing anything at all in the first place.

 

Having fun -- as many have said -- is using variety.

 

But now, the more things they weaken the LESS variety you have to use which does affect skill in one way or another. You can adapt to changes in the patches like Homosexual Ewok said -- I did for about a day and half for 1.4 -- But then I realized where this game is headed and I think while adapting to new styles of play is always mandatory in any game... Raven is going to make this a dull and boring game by the time we get to patch 1.6+ where the saber and other unique elements of the game are all but useless making this a watered-down version of just another FPS -- If that.

 

Peace

[FatalStrike]

Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi

Homosexual Ewok and Et al.

 

 

 

 

 

Having fun -- as many have said -- is using variety.

 

 

 

 

This is exactly what I am trying to slip past the mental defenses of some in this community.