Mech Destroyer / Anti-Air Mobile Merger?

[Darth Windu]

My idea is to merge the current Anit-Air Mobile (AAM) and mech destroyer into one unit, with the art of the AAM. I came up with this idea after seeing episode 2 where the AAM's destroyed a Republic AT-TE, and also after playing Command & Conquer, where the 'rocket' troops can fire at both air and ground targets, but are ineffective against infantry. Of course, the AAM would have to be make more expensive, but i think it would make the game better. There could also be a new unit that would be a smaller, faster assault mech with less hp's, armour, firepower, cost etc for things like the AT-ST and AAT. The things this idea would do and fix include-

 

-make the game more canon

-make anti-air mobile's more effective

-remove the problem of when using AAM's in a group, if you tell that group to attack a target, the AAM's will move right next to the target, and normally get destroyed.

 

Thoughts?

[jcb231]

I think that the two units should not be fully merged. I like the two seperate units.

 

I do, however, think that a researchable upgrade for the anti-air mobile for most civs could be an option to attack ground mechs and heavy weapons and perhaps buildings...could be fun, and would, indeed, be more like the movie. After all, that's why the AT AT was given its anti-air upgrade...it was like the movie that way.

 

I think that anti-air troops should remain anti-air effective only, but could perhaps have a weak laser attack to use so they're not just butchered if caught unprotected.

 

As a side note, I do think that when you have anti-air of any type in an army it should be "smart" enough to not get close to a ground unit when you order the whole group to atack a ground unit. The anti-air should hang back a bit so as not to get needelessly destroyed, but still be able to cover the army from air assault.

This "hanging back" rule should also apply to medics and workers in an army....the medics should not move in to attack, but rather just go around healing automatically.....workers should just step back and not attack unless you specifically order them individually to do so.

[Darth Windu]

Well as i said, apart from making it more canon, it would remove the attack problem, and would enhance their capability, plus it has already been shown to work in many other games. Also, the proposed mini-assault mech would be good against everything (except air) but not as good vs infantry as the strike mech, not as good vs mechs as the anti-air/mech destroyer etc. I think this would also make units such as the AT-ST and AAT more canon.

[Darth Windu]

So no-one else has an opinion on this?

[memezcom]

I don't see why they should be merged. I think it's part of the attraction of the game that each unit has strengths and weaknesses. It means you always have to have a little think about what combination of units you are going to need when attacking the enemy. Which unit is going to do the attacking? what defence will it need etc...For example, in the later missions of the Republic campaign I liked to use the cruiser but this has no real defence of its own so I used fighters to escort them, but in turn they need protecting by anti-air units who in turn need protecting from enemy ground units....I enjoyed that part of the game, how to combine units to give an effective attack force.

Having a unit with no obvious weak point would unbalance the game unless the enemy also had the equivalent unit...which brings you back to the curent status quo...

[Darth Windu]

I already stated why they should be merged. Also, this new unit would still be useless against infantry and ships, and would also lose to assault mechs. Besides, the concept has already been proved in the Command & Conquer series.

[Kryllith]

I also like them as separate units, though I would like something built into the program where units incapable of attacking something wouldn't move up into firing range. It's really annoying when I have a bunch of troopers and a couple medics selected and the medics feel the need to rush the opposing forces.

 

Kryllith

[Darth Windu]

I'm pretty sure that the problem with the medics, anti-air etc being able to target units, all ground units being able to target air units, and air cruisers being able to target other air units are the result of the game engine, with it not being designed for these sorts of units.

[Kryllith]

Yeah, I agree with you there. Mainly it's a problem that LucasArt didn't bother to look into or didn't bother to fix. Sounds like it should be fixable though. They just need to make it so certain units won't attack his an enemy unit is rightclicked on. Heck, I could live with the AA running into battle, at least they are designed to attack, but having things like medics, trawlers, and transports doing it is silly.

 

Kryllith

[Sithmaster_821]

This is the apitomy of stupidity. Just because one civs aam blow up one of another civs assault mechs, doesnt mean that it should be merged. The Hellfire unit had surface to suface and surface to air capabilities, and, because it fit best as a AAM, lucasarts designed it that way, slightly tweaking the way it was shown in the movies. I thought that your gunship idea was taking the movies too literally, but im appalled at this idea. Windu, please, for the sake of the entire forum, think before you post

[Kryllith]

Still in all, there were numerous complaints because the AT-ATs couldn't fire at air units in the original GB, but that was changed in the CC. They could always put a Confed specific upgrade that would allow the Confed AA Artillery to fire at ground units. Though if they did this, I would suggest either limiting what they can fire on (say, only big things like mechs/artillery/cannons but not smaller units like troops) and/or modifying one or more other confed units to aid balance...

 

Kryllith

[simwiz2]

AA Mobiles (especially with Retrofit) have enough range that allowing them to attack ground units in even the slightest amount would require MAJOR balance changes and the confederacy would have to lose other units, possibly angering people who like to play that civ.

[jcb231]

I think that the Confeds should have a civ-specific tech in Tech 4 that allows their AAM to fire on ground mechs, but the range should be shortened considerably. I think that this would not be unbalanced, provided the range was short and the destructive power a little less, it could only fire on Mechs or Cannons or Heavy Weapons or Buildings...not Troops and Jedi and BHs, and the upgrade was very expensive. Walker Research hasn't unbalanced the game yet, and its essentially the reverse of this idea.

[Kryllith]

Same problem with the AT-ATs though (ie, they have great range). One way to level it a little would to give Confed AA Artillery a minimum distance for attacking ground units (in addition to not letting them attack troopers). Cutting off the max range for ground units wouldn't be bad either. If nothing else, it could be set up so that their AA bonus (don't remember the name, but it's the one certain civs get for having weak air which extends range and damage) doesn't affect ground units. Of course, they wouldn't get splash damage like the AT-ATs, but then the AT-ATs didn't get splash damage in the air anyway.

 

Kryllith

[Darth Windu]

Once again sithmaster attacks what s/he doesnt understand...

 

As i have said before, this concept does, and would, work. Hopefully if and when lucasarts does make a SW:GB 2, they will incorperate this into the game.

[Sithmaster_821]

Windu, you are trying to do a realism>gameplay, which others have repeatedly told you doesnt work. Merging two perfectly balanced units spells trouble. Either it becomes an uber-unit with the same capabilities as the two units separated. Or if it is toned down for balance's sake, then air/mech will wreck havoc. Listen to what everyone else is saying, it is a more reasonable option. Also, about the next Star Wars RTS, remember the outside-the-box/use-your-own-engine-not-AoK.

[Darth Windu]

sithmaster - no, im not. This change would be quite succesful, but as i said it would also require a change to the current mech destroyer unit. Although its quite possible that it would take a bit of work to make sure everything is balanced, it would be a good change, and i certainly hope that if there is a sequel, this change is made.

[Kryllith]

The reason I don't like the idea of implimenting this on a Civ-wide scale is because we end up with the counter-push. If we're going to have AA units that can attack ground, then why not simply give all blaster units the capacity to attack air (as stated in another thread). I think the idea of giving one Civ's AA artillery (in this case the confederacy) an upgrade to attack ground units is a decent idea; it gives the civ some uniqueness without compromising the game as a whole.

 

I think it's important to keep a distinction between units that are AA and units that are only ground. Every civ already has a unit (in some cases several units) that can attack both air and ground: the fighters. They shouldn't need to have a ground unit that can do both as well. Giving an individual civ the capability to turn a ground based AA unit into a ground attack unit though, wouldn't hurt. It worked for the AT-AT afterall (though reversed).

 

Kryllith

[Crazy_dog no.3]

Originally posted by Kryllith

Yeah, I agree with you there. Mainly it's a problem that LucasArt didn't bother to look into or didn't bother to fix. Sounds like it should be fixable though. They just need to make it so certain units won't attack his an enemy unit is rightclicked on. Heck, I could live with the AA running into battle, at least they are designed to attack, but having things like medics, trawlers, and transports doing it is silly.

 

Kryllith

 

 

Yeah I hate it when medics rush into a firefight. U can theoretically stop this, but it requers lots of micromanagement

[Sithmaster_821]

Merging the two is just plain dumb. What happens to the AAT, the ATST, or the Homing Spider Droid? Why not give the confeds a walker research like tech that allows them to fire at the ground. That would, unlike any of your previous ideas, enhance gameplay by making the incredibily lacking confeds have a specialty, and making the Hailfire droid feared at an ATAT level. Also, remember what I said about the next RTS not using the same units from SWGB. Think outside the box and listen to others before obliviously posting your senseless babble.

[Darth Windu]

Originally posted by Sithmaster_821

Merging the two is just plain dumb. What happens to the AAT, the ATST, or the Homing Spider Droid?

 

Read my first post to see what would happaen to the AAT and AT-ST. Also sithmaster, the babble queen, the sort of unit i am proposing would work with any sort of ground-based RTS, as it has in many different games.

[Sithmaster_821]

Windu, you fail to see the idiocy in your own ideas. If the two were combined, one of two options would happen:

1. The unit strength in killing mechs and air stay the same, thus creating a uber unit (it takes 5 fu repeaters to kill 1 fu mech destroyer).

2. The unit is cut down for balance purposes and mechs/air rein supreme because their main couter is now weaker than before.

 

Also, the merger itself lacks sense. Just because one civs unit destroyed one of the other civs unit, it should specilize in killing them. The Hailfire droid's main purpose was to attack the gunships, of which they killed three. By your logic, fighters should specilize against aa mobiles, troops against mechs, and artillery versus anything. Its flawed logic, plain and simple.

the babble queen

Who spams the boards again? Not me. I have reason behind my insults. Try to do the same.

remove the problem of when using AAM's in a group, if you tell that group to attack a target, the AAM's will move right next to the target, and normally get destroyed

try not attacking ground units.

[jcb231]

Sithmaster, must you always be so rude in your responses?

 

Anyway, I think the Anti Air attacking gorund units problem comes from when people have a mixed group that contains ground forces and anti air to protect them........I agree with Windu and other posters that the anti-air in such a group should not move in to attack a ground target as they have no effect on it. Anti Air units should automatically hang back slightly to let the ground units do their work.

[Sithmaster_821]

Also, with the medics and the aa, dont put them in the same group as your troops/mechs.

[memezcom]

Yeah, that's how I play the game. I never merge 'defensive' units like aa troopers with 'attack' units such as assault mechs. Invariably, my anit-air defence is always at the 'rear' of my group. I'm also one of those guys who researches all the possible upgrades, so my aa invariably has homing capability, increased range and the ability to take more damage. I also go 'over the top sometimes' on how many aa I have - sometimes upto 25 of them if it looks as if it's going to be 'one of those nightmare missions'. It always makes me laugh when you get that many aa missiles homing in on an aircraft......