Sev'Rance Tann

[Darth Windu]

What's up with Sev'Rance Tann? This bugs me in particular because at the end of Episode 1, Yoda specifically states that there are only ever two, a master and an apprentice. Since Darth Sdious is the Master, and Darth Tyrannus is the apprentice, wjhere does Sev'Rance fit in?

Thoughts?

[jcb231]

Actually, despite widespread fan belief to the contrary, Yoda actually says "Always two there are, a master, and an apprentice."

 

He never says there are ONLY two, just that there are always two...that could be taken to mean there are only two, as most fans have done, or taken to mean that there are always at least two, to keep the chain of training going.......so depending on how you take it Tann doesn't cause any problems.

[General_Veers]

Everything's explained in the StarWars.com Databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/index.html

 

It says that if there are more than two, a master and an apprentice, they all are consumed by self destruction.

 

"Internecine struggle by power-hungry Sith practioners dwindled their numbers.

 

One Sith had the cunning to survive. Darth Bane restructured the cult, so that there could only be two -- no more, no less -- a master, and an apprentice."

 

As for Sev'Rance Tann, I read somewhere (think it was the Star Wars Galaxies site) that although there can only be two sith there can be"Dark Jedi", the sort of opposite of a Jedi, and that it is a Dark Jedi that replaces a sith when they die.

 

Hope that clears everything up!

[jcb231]

Yes, yes, I've read that too, but if you're basing your observations and getting your information SOLEY from the movies there's no clarification given to Yoda's comments.

[Darth Windu]

Epsiode 1-

Yoda - "only two there are, no more, no less"

 

Seems pretty conclusive to me.

[Kryllith]

I agree with the fact that people seem to confuse Dark Jedi with the Sith. There can be plenty of Dark Jedi roaming around while there are only two Sith. I don't recall any mentioning of Tann being a Sith apprentice, simply a general (though obviously with Force powers) of Sidious's. She could have been any number of Jedi that turned against the order or was taught by other ex-members of the Jedi...

 

Kryllith

[jcb231]

That's not yoda's exact quote. I don't have a script or the movie in my appartment anymore, but maybe someone does. I still think he says

 

"ALWAYS two there are...." not "ONLY two there are..."

[Darth Windu]

ok then, so the quote is 'always two there are. No more, no less'. Still seems mighty conclusive.

 

Also, i hate to tell you guys this, but the dark jedi ARE the Sith. Besides, in Republic mission 6 Sev'Rance is asking Echuu if he wants to take her place at count dooku's side, as his apprentice. Since there is only ever two sith, those two being Dath Sidious and Tyrannus, that is not possible.

[Kryllith]

From what I've read, the Sith are based on a specific way of teaching and code which resulted long in the past with the domination of the Sith planet (hence the Dark Jedi then were call the Sith Lords). The training and instructions are handed down from master to apprentice continuously, though the apprentice oftentimes may have been a Jedi to start (such as Dooku and Vader were). There can be plenty of Jedi who have turned to the darkside, but unless they've been apprenticed to the current Sith Master, they are not Sith.

 

Kryllith

[jcb231]

Right....a Jedi who has succumbed to the dark side has not necessarily joined the Sith order.

 

Also, does yoda say "no more, no less"? I missed that part I guess....

[Kent H]

Yeah, Dark Jedi and Sith are two entirely different things. Dark Jedi are just Jedi that have turned to the darkside. The Sith are an almost religious cult obsessed with destroying the Jedi. Sev'rance could easily be Dooku's Jedi apprentice, and not even know about the Sith, or at least his Sith connections.

 

And yes, Yoda says the "no more, no less" part. However, Sith, like the Jedi can make Holocrons, repositories of their history, teaching, and culture. While it's more difficult than having a living teacher, in theory any force sensitive could find a Sith Holocron and study it to become a Sith. Not to mention that surely during the past thousand years there would be a Sith or two who didn't follow the Rule of Two. Just because Yoda believes there is always only two does not make it fact.

[Darth Windu]

read the starwars databank, there are only 2 sith at any one time.

[Sithmaster_821]

Also, i hate to tell you guys this, but the dark jedi ARE the Sith

Windu, if you dont know what your saying, dont talk at all. Ill type slowly so even you can understand. The Sith are an extremist order of the Dark Side. During the time period which you refer to, there are only two sith, palpatine and dooku. Tann isnt a member of the sith order, just a dark force user that Dooku has recruited as a right hand and a apprentice in the dark side. If you got past the first scenerio and beat the campaign, you'd realize that no connection is made between Tann and the Sith order

[Darth Windu]

sithmaster - that insult really doesnt work, since i read that post at the same speed as every other post. To make it an effective insult, you should've space the letters. Anyway, i have completed the entire game, and i dont have a problem with there being dark 'force users' i just have a problem with there being more than two evil jedi (sith) at any one time.

[jcb231]

Windu...

 

What most of us are trying to say is that evil/dark Jedi are NOT the same as Sith. Therefore there can be any number of Dark Jedi at the same time.

 

Think of it this way (and I'm not trying to insult any religions here, as I'm Catholic myself):

 

Catholics are all Christian, but Christians are not all Catholic.

 

Get it now? Sith are a faction that darkside users can become involved in, but just because someone follows the darkside does not mean that they are an official Sith Lord. Therefore there could be hundreds of Dark Jedi, in theory.

[Kryllith]

Or, if you want to relate it more to the movies, consider this: If Obiwan had decided to join with Dooku, then he would have been a Jedi (and perhaps eventually a Darkside Jedi once he became corrupted) but he would not have become one of the Sith. The only way he could have become one of the Sith is if Dooku died (in which case Obiwan could become Sidious's apprentice) or if Sidious died (in which case Dooku would be come the master and Obiwan could become HIS apprentice). In either case, no other Sith are going to be made unless one of the current Sith is disposed of. Should that happen though, there may be any number of Dark Jedi ready to become apprenticed...

 

Kryllith

[Sithmaster_821]

that insult really doesnt work, since i read that post at the same speed as every other post. To make it an effective insult, you should've space the letters.

Windu, the more you say, the dumber you look. I was being sarcastic and hyperbolic, using humor to add effect. Of course you still read it at the same speed.

[Darth Windu]

jcb, kryllith - i get what you're trying to say about the whole dark jedi/sith thing, but doesnt the existence of dark jedi make the whole thing of only 2 sith at any one time obselete? Also, if there are so many dark jedi, in ep1 when qui-gon's attacked by maul, why would he immediately assume he's a sith and not a dark jedi?

[jcb231]

No, being a Sith is still important, because Dark Jedi are not immediate dangers to normal Jedi. Sith have a crazy mad-on to eliminate the Jedi order, and so the fact that Qui-Gon was so savagely attacked in the desert by Darth Maul is probably why he made that assumption, coupled with whatever he read off his opponents mind.

 

Dark Jedi can be Sith, but they could just as easily have left the order to use their powers for financial gain or to control people for their personal amusement or something...they don't even have to be violent. Sith, by their very nature, are out to destroy the Jedi...the dark side is merely their tool.

[Kryllith]

Actually, I'd wager that the Dark Jedi aren't widely numerous. Most of the Jedis are Jedis because they've been taught from a very early age to do what is just and good. Since the training is nearly inborn, I'd guess that most of the Jedis tend to keep within the training they received. Occasionally though you'll have individuals who become disenchanted with the Jedi order for various reasons (they become greedy, fall in love and decided to marry, get power crazu, etc). So while they are out there, I don't imagine there are nearly as many as the Light Jedis. Of course, there could be numerous Non-Sith Dark Jedis out there corrupting Jedis or raising Force-sensitive people as well, so who knows.

 

As for his impression as to Maul being a Sith. *shrug* Maybe it was Maul's style of fighting, something Qui-gon picked up from the Force, the style of costume, Maul's race, or various other elements. I don't know Qui-gon's experience with distinguishing who is and is not a Jedi, so I really couldn't tell you.

 

Kryllith

[Sithmaster_821]

Kyrllith, in ep2 they said 20 jedi had left the order as. Also, those force-strong, but not discovered by the jedi could turn very easily to the dark side.

[Kryllith]

Yeah, 20 out of 10000 is pretty miniscule, and there is a good chance that Qui-gon would probably know (or at least know of) the Jedi that had left the order--and even if he didn't, someone from the Council probably would. Given this, it's conceivable he'd guess that a highly trained, unknown Force user could be a Sith. Of course, it could just be one of those Force-sensitives that were trained by a Dark Jedi.

 

Kryllith

[Legacy_Of_Sith]

Windu, NOT ALL DARK JEDI ARE SITH. Was Mara Jade a sith? No, but she was a dark sider and an agent of the Emperor, who was a sith lord. Ditto for the dark side adepts.

[Assault3000]

Jedi Knight Dark Forces II is an example of there being more than two Dark Jedi at a time thing mentioned above. There are seven Dark Jedi in JK so there can be more than two. Dark Jedi are not necessarily Sith.

[Darth Windu]

I think by now i can call this thread closed. I do understand the thing about dark jedi, although i still think it was some idiot writer's idea for more bad jedi.