More units/less canon OR more canon/less units?

[CorranSec]

Yeah, I think that Gungan thing is the aiwha. There was a discussion about that in another thread, I forget which one...

 

Joe, do your ideas have any reasoning behind them other than 'realism'? Because if there isn't, then we can pretty much destroy everything you say straight off.

 

Having random droids wandering around doesn't increase realism anyway. It detracts from the SW atmosphere more than anything else would. How can you explain an R2-D2 standing around near a Wampa in the frozen wastelands of Hoth? And note that you sorta can't explain it, considering that people would just play the game, see a droid and say "What the hell..... is this a bug!?"

[Admiral Vostok]

I think some people missed my point about Lord of the Rings. I'm not saying there was no extra games etc released, I'm saying that these games and what have you didn't need to make up extra things to keep Middle Earth interesting, unlike the Star Wars EU.

 

CorranSec, I actually play the table top LOTR game. What are you referring to that isn't in the books? There is nothing I can think of that Games Workshop has totally made up.

 

And I don't think a strictly canon game (with masses of TIEs and no Gungan air defence) is the way to go, but again I stress these don't go AGAINST the movies unlike the pummel and air cruiser. I should also add I'd have no problem with the air cruiser if it's attack looked like a fortress' attack when it's full off troopers (multiple laser beams). It's just that single solid shot that I don't like, it's like nothing in the movies.

 

I also want to say that while I enjoyed the Thrawn books, it was the Jedi Academy Trilogy that turned me off Star Wars EU for good. That series was the biggest load of crap I have ever read. So many things in that just contradicted the movies. I haven't read it for about eight years so don't ask me for specifics, though.

[CorranSec]

The majority of the tabletop LoTR game's scenarios were not part of the movies or books. Also, some of the characters require leaps of imagination; the "Kings of Men" and "Dwarf Kings" especially. The magical powers are also remarkably different.

 

I sorta enjoyed the Academy trilogy, though of course Thrawn and many others were better. It's a real pity you don't know the specifics, because now your argument counts for naught.

 

Well, if it's just a few things that you don't like- I personally don't really like the Air Cruiser attack either, a true turbolaser beam would be better- then that's easily changed.

 

About pummels- read my earlier post.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, maybe the game mechanics are a bit of a stretch, but every model created for the game is canon, in that they are mentioned in the books. The "Kings of Men" are "Dwarf Kings" are based on the ones we see at the start of the film during Galadriel's monologue. Yes, I know we don't see them fight, but they are still CANON characters, which is what this debate is about.

 

Too bad I can't name specifics, but I'm not willing to subject myself to those books again just to back up my argument. I'll say this, though my details may be wrong and no doubt someone will correct me if I am. One of the main strengths of the Death Star was it's sheer size, and the terror that could inflict. When they take the death star superlaser and put it in the Sun Crusher, it totally goes against the Empire's doctrine of war, which is rule through fear. The EU illustrations of the Sun Crusher don't look scary at all.

 

I thought of another bad piece of EU - most of the stories in Tales of the Bounty Hunters, Tales from Jabba's Palace, and Tales from Mos Eisley Cantina. If they are to be considered "fact", then just about all of these insignificant characters actually played a minor part in the destiny of the galaxy. Come on! They're background and nothing more.

 

I also thought of a good peice of EU to illustrate my point. The Han Solo Trilogy is by far my favourite EU. This is because it doesn't conflict with the movies at all, and in some places it even compliments them. Reading the books and then seeing the Jabba the Hutt scene in Special Edition A New Hope, they really work well together. Sure, there are the odd dodgy bits, like Han always resenting the "scruffy" remark before he's even met Leia, but on the whole it works well.

[Sithmaster_821]

Matrix the answer to your question is Timothy Zahn, who wrote the original EU book series. The trilogy was Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command. I have those books in my room since sixth grade, when i liked star wars alot, and i have been to lazy to get rid of them:D

 

 

EDIT:POST 400!!!!! Yahoo!!!

[CorranSec]

Vostok- your ideas and arguments are based on actually ignoring everything that was stated in the EU material.

 

About the Sun Crusher- Fear, terror and so on were the tactics of the Emperor and Darth Vader, and basically the tactics of the dark side. Seeing as they were/are... um....... dead, and times have changed, tactics have changed too.

Now it's Daala's tactics. She rules differently. She thinks differently. She acts differently. I think there's even a couple of pages/chapter (a kind of monologue) in one of the books about how Daala's ideas of warfare greatly differ to the brute-force tactics of Palpatine and Vader.

 

The "Tales Of" anthologies were actually quite good, in my opinion. It's an intruiging fact of any literature that everyone has a story to tell, and the "Tales Of" added depth and flavour to the otherwise faceless 'scenery' characters.

 

They also filled in bits of the story (the canon story, of course... mostly in Bounty Hunters). We never got to know what Dengar, IG88, Zuckuss and 4LOM did in the intervening time, and what their background story was.

I do agree with you about Boba Fett's story- even though it was well written and action-filled, it was one of the- no, make that THE- most contradictory piece of EU ever published. Other than the fact that it ended with the possible death of Han Solo, it brought in the whole Jaster Mereel thing which was summarily disproved by Episode II.

Take notice, though, that this is the exception, not the rule.

 

About the "Kings" in LoTR- I was assuming you'd say something like that. This takes more than a stretch, it takes a leap. We neither see them fight nor do we see them do anything other that stand looking at rings. And if the "Kings of Men" are actually the Ringwraiths, how can you explain battles between them? And why do their rings not grant them in-game powers?

As you can see, if it followed totally canon, it would be rather stupid. It's fine the way it is, and so is Star Wars.

[Admiral Vostok]

CorranSec - okay, I'll give up my argument about the Jedi Academy Trilogy because it appears if repressed those memories. And I'll agree that some of the stories were good, I particularly liked the Zuckuss/4LOM story that showed you the devastation after Hoth. However, some are not. The IG-88 story was worse than the Boba Fett one I reckon. IG-88 uploads his brain to the Death Star? Come-on, he's a minor character. It's just an attempt by the author to make their characters seem more important than they are.

 

There's another bit of crap EU that just came to mind, though I can't remember what it's from. Someone goes back to Hoth (God knows why) and sees a Wampa with only one arm.

 

I also thought of my favourite EU - the X Wing series, because for once the books assumed there are characters who can have adventures NOT relating to the exploits of Luke, Leia and Han.

 

And about the Kings of Men thing - re-read my post, I'm not denying they don't fight. This debate is about CANON CHARACTERS and UNITS, and the Kings of Men are. You'll note I have no objection to seeing the Rebel Alliance battle against the Gungans, which is against CANON EVENTS, but I would like to see canon units in both the Rebels and Gungans, which relates to CANON CHARACTERS and UNITS.

[CorranSec]

IG-88: Yeah, I guess it was a rather big step to take. It's OK though, because it really didn't make any difference in the movies, and the entire plan was foiled by the Rebels.

 

Going back to hoth: I believe this was Luke and Callista in Darksaber. They went back because Luke was 'revisiting all the places where he learned about the Force' so that Callista could possibly regain her own Force powers.

It never showed the Wampa actually dying in the movies, and it's a rather good tie-in with events of the past.

 

X-Wing: I assume you're solely referring to the Rogue Squadron part of the series, and even in there Luke has a cameo and Wedge is a main character.

 

Kings of Men: OK, I see what you mean now. Sorry.

[AU_Andy_Ewok]

Originally posted by MadrixTF

Ewok, it would be great to have a battle on the Zone against you, but i am firewalled at work and at home the bandwidth is just plain rediculous - i live in South Africa, still very much 3rd-world in terms of Telco infrastructutre, etc. But they have just recently launched ADSL - but it's still very expensive...

 

Is it possible to play this game over the Net at 56K analogue?

 

Sorry i didn't notice your post untill now, 56k is fine aslong as your computer is goodish. The game engine is a good 5 years old when Broadband wasn't very common. You should be fine and lag free in 2v2's or 1v1's.

[Admiral Vostok]

Yeah, Darksaber would probably be it. Written by Kevin J Anderson right? The guy who wrote the Jedi Academy Trilogy. I never read Darksaber because after reading the JAT I swore I'd never read any more of his books. Besides, the plot outline for Darksaber also made me cringe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it involve the Hutts building a Death Star? That seems silly to me. And I don't mind the odd tie-in, but Andersons are a bit too explicit. I mean, going to Hoth would be enough, but instead he has to add the one-armed Wampa. The really lame movie tie-in I remember from JAT was when the Rebels storm some Imperial base, and they hear over the loudspeaker "Rebel Troops have entered the base! Rebel Troops have entered the..." cut off with static. I cringed at that part.

 

I also thought the Wraith Squadron part of the X Wing series was good, I thought the characters were great and a very refreshing change from Luke, Leia and Han.

[MadrixTF]

Thanks for the advise Ewok, i will give it a try from home. I always tried joining 5 or 6 player games - maybe that was a problem as well - i'll try 1v1.

 

Sithmaster, thanks for the answer regarding th books - actually CorranSec already helped me out with that on a different thread...

i'll check them out though...

 

Oh and btw, regarding the title of this thread - What about More units / more canon - i'm sure there are enough units in the Star Wars world ...?

[Crazy_dog no.3]

The more the merrier!

[CorranSec]

Yeah, Luke, Leia and Han do get a bit boring sometimes. Star Wars authors seem to be somehow 'drawn' to them, like they have to be the main characters. They do bring in other main characters though, like Wedge, Corran, and so on. Actually, some of my favourite characters are the non-canon chars from the Correlion trilogy (Kalenda, Q9-X2, and so on).

Also, each author potrays Luke, Leia and Han (as well as other canon characters, like Chewie and Lando) differently, so it's almost like a new character with each new writer.

And of course there's the children of Han and Leia, who are central characters in many of the post-Academy books, especially the New Jedi Order.

 

I can't remember that "Rebel Troops have..." thing. Maybe it wasn't a movie tie-in. Maybe Anderson is just drawing on material. Maybe that's what people normally say.

 

The Hutts are trying to build a kind of Death Star, but not precisely like the original. Why is this a bad plot idea? Actually, during several of the EU serieses (argh! that word again!), characters try to recreate or reuse their predecessors' weapons. Anderson does seem to have a thing for Death Stars though... Oh well.

And that's just one of the many sub-plots running throughout the book.

 

Er.. anyway, back to the whole canon thingy....

Madrix is right. I was thinking something like that a little while ago. Why can't we just change some artwork and names, or add in a couple of canon units?

Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure whether additional units could be successfully incorporated into the current game. Why not just make a stand for a greater number of canon units in SW:GB 2?