General Nilaar Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 I'm a huge Star Wars fan but I have nothing against non-canon units if they add to the gameplay. And I don't think EVERY canon unit needs to be in it when they don't belong in that type of game. Star Wars fans need to realize that there's only one more movie left to go. That's all there will EVER be. Better start accepting new stuff from other sources or the Star Wars universe is going to get stale REAL fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoL ShadowJedi Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 well said general!!! i agree totally with u, and the expanded universe was accepted by George Lucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadrixTF Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 Joesdomain, i have to agree with General Nilaar, the game needs pummels and canon's. I use those undeployed canons all the time they are great for destroying a base. If they were to remove these units then they would have to replace them with similar units to keep the balance of gameplay. Imagine how long it would take to destroy a base without canons or pummels, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 You can actually level a base fairly quickly with a number of assault mechs, but I'd still rather have the other units. Of course, if people are so against pummels we could replace them with cheap-to-produce demolition droids (from the Leia campaign). They'd work like AoC Petards... Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU_Andy_Ewok Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 They're not as cost effective as Pummels and cannons but if you're in a good position getting like 30 and it's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoL ShadowJedi Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 leia campaign?????? is it on heavengames? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 No. It's the Rebel campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadrixTF Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Kryllith, i like your idea about the Demolition Droid, but how much damage do they inflict compared to Pummels and Cannons? Although, i must confess i don't use Pummels much, i prefer Cannons and Assault Mechs... Ewok, have Naboo improved in CC expansion? i played against them yesterday on Hardest (i was Confeds) and they were much stronger than i remembered...? I like those mounted knights or whatever they are called... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU_Andy_Ewok Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by MadrixTF Kryllith, i like your idea about the Demolition Droid, but how much damage do they inflict compared to Pummels and Cannons? Although, i must confess i don't use Pummels much, i prefer Cannons and Assault Mechs... Ewok, have Naboo improved in CC expansion? i played against them yesterday on Hardest (i was Confeds) and they were much stronger than i remembered...? I like those mounted knights or whatever they are called... Yeah they are much stronger. They have a massive holocron bonus. Big nova mining bonus. Royal Crusaders just own all. Jedi are stronger now both Padawans and masters. Strike mechs are stronger versus workers. Lots of things helped the Naboo in CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadrixTF Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Ewok, which country do you live in? This is the first time i have received a reply in my day timezone...? Yes, those Royal Crusaders are powerful and look great, but i don't like their Mechs - they look like surfboards with lasers attached... Try using Confed or TF - then you will see what REAL Mechs look like, I especially like the Confed Assualt Mech... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU_Andy_Ewok Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 I'm GMT timezone, English. I had 30 mins to kill before college cos i had a late start. The naboo Assult mech is definatly top of the ugly chart lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryllith Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Originally posted by MadrixTF Kryllith, i like your idea about the Demolition Droid, but how much damage do they inflict compared to Pummels and Cannons? Although, i must confess i don't use Pummels much, i prefer Cannons and Assault Mechs... Ewok, have Naboo improved in CC expansion? i played against them yesterday on Hardest (i was Confeds) and they were much stronger than i remembered...? I like those mounted knights or whatever they are called... To be honest, I'm not sure. In AoC, the Petards were available along side rams, so petards could be more expensive (even when it's gone, you could still have a ram left to do damage). If we removed pummels completely (and perhaps cannons as well) then a 1-shot unit like the demolition droid might be quite cheep (since you couldn't have a pummel leftover to back it up). On the other hand, since you wouldn't be spending resources on pummels and cannons, you'd have more to spend on demolition droids so they might not be so cheap after all. IIRC, the petards were like 50 of one resource and less (25-35 perhaps) of another. I figure top end the demolition droids might cost that high, and at the low end maybe around 20/20-25/25. They can't fire, so they can be taken down decently by troopers before being able to contact anything which would make them a wasted unit. Combined with a transport though, they can be very effective. I can't remember quite how much damage the droids did in the campaign (I'll have to play it again), but I think 1 droid could destroy a power core, and maybe 3 destroyed a mech factory. They were probably comparable to hitting a building with a cannon blast, maybe more. In the campaign I usually had enough to take out both nearby power cores, inflict a bunch of damage on the nearby CC (usually enough so that workers couldn't garrison in it) and still have a few left to hit (or even take out) a turret or a troop center/mech factory... depending on how many I lost to troopers/mechs. If you're interested in checking them out for yourself, I think it's the 3rd (or 4th) scenario in Leia's campaign. It's the one where you're large asteroid with space and you team up with wookies to retrieve the artifact from the Empire (it's the scenario where Vader kills Echuu Shen-jon at the end.) Kryllith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesdomain Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Personally, I think you still can have more canon and more units at the same time. I am sure there are ways to have lots of kinds of troopers, mechs, aircraft, ships. I am no Ca++ programmer and I know nothing about making RTS games but I am sure we have the technology to make a Star Wars RTS game like that. It would be nice to be able to choose from a list 5-7 troopers, 5-7 aircraft, etc. Maybe if they have a sequel they add more units per civilization. The only disappointment in clone campaigns expansion pack was the number of new unit per civilizations. I recommend at least 5-6 new units per civilization. I personally want to see Imperial Navy Troopers and Imperial Officers with blasters as a empire trooper option for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I loved petards. Esp. vs the comp (who had no way to counter them), these babies could wipe towns clean in large numbers. Petrad massing was one of my favorite late game strats vs turltes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 3, 2002 Author Share Posted October 3, 2002 I disagree with you, General. The Star Wars Universe will never become stale in my eyes. Let's take the example of the Lord of the Rings novels. They were written before Star Wars and they are still popular. Even if the movies hadn't been made, they were wonderful peices of literature that needed no expanded universe to keep from being stale. Sure there was plently of supplementary material produced, but it was all created by Tolkien, unlike Star Wars EU and Lucas. Contrary to what some believe, George Lucas does NOT approve the Expanded Universe. He only ALLOWS it. In my opinion, Star Wars is just like Lord of the Rings in that it's strong enough to remain great on it's own. What about the average person who doesn't even realise the EU exists? When I used to read the EU novels people would say "are they about the movie?" and I'd say "no, this one's set five years after Return of the Jedi" and they'd give me a strange look as if "why would you care?". They defenitely don't think Star Wars is stale, that's why the Special Edition movies did so well when they were re-released. Let me clear up a few things. I'm ONLY against the non-canon units that go AGAINST what we see in the movies. I'm even willing to make allowances for the cannons because the Republic's SPHA-T is more like a cannon than artillery. I'm not against gungan air units, non-gungan sea units, grenade troopers, anti-air troopers etc. because although they aren't in the movies they could exist in the Star Wars Universe. They fit in with the way the Star Wars Universe wages war. However, units like pummels and air cruisers go AGAINST what we see in the movies. I might also point out that apart from in SWGB, such units don't even exist in EU as far as I know. Close combat building destroyers and weapons of mass destruction (apart from mega mass destruction like a Death Star) just don't fit in Star Wars in my opinion. As for a petard like unit, I think a unit more like the SEALs in Red Alert 2 would be fitting with Star Wars. They run in and plant an explosive, then run out and boom! Han Solo's taken out your Endor Sheild Generator Bunker. I sure type a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Nilaar Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Yes, but how many games have there been based on Lord of the Rings? Except the ones coming out because of the movie there hasn't been any since the early 90's. The original books may never get stale but after reading the Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and Silmarion there isn't really anything else to experience. Nothing new will ever happen on Middle Earth. I want to see stuff that Lucas doesn't have room for in the movies. There's plenty in the SW's universe that can't be fit in the movies. Yes, the pummlers might not really fit. I think it's the only unit that doesn't really fit though. And it isn't really that bad. I have no problem with the Cruisers though. I think they make perfect sense. I agree on Lucas not really approving of the expanded universe. He hasn't read any of the books and I bet he only has a vague idea what they are doing there. But Star Wars has moved beyond George Lucas to be honest. He could die tomorrow but Star Wars would continue. I'd stack up the Heir to the Empire and Hand of Thrawn series against any of the movies. Thrawn is one of the best villians in the SW's universe but he wasn't created by George Lucas. There's only one Wookie in the series after all, but I don't see anything wrong with showing what their army looks like. The same goes with other alien races like the Chiss, Trandoshans, ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadrixTF Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 General Nilaar: Forgive my ignorance, but where can i get hold of these EU series? (i'm assuming they are books) I would like to take a look at Heir to the Empire and Hand of Thrawn series... Also, the author of these series might help a bit in finding them... As for Ewok: I managed to defeat Naboo last night using Republic on Hard setting - it was great fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AU_Andy_Ewok Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Ahh, but that was a computer controlled Naboo and not an Andy controlled Naboo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadrixTF Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Ewok, it would be great to have a battle on the Zone against you, but i am firewalled at work and at home the bandwidth is just plain rediculous - i live in South Africa, still very much 3rd-world in terms of Telco infrastructutre, etc. But they have just recently launched ADSL - but it's still very expensive... Is it possible to play this game over the Net at 56K analogue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I think it should be quite clear that although a canon-only game would be fun in one way- ie the fact that, well, it's Star Wars (yay!), it would be completely not fun in another. That 'another' is that you basically wouldn't be able to play the game. Certain civs would suck, other civs would rock, etc. (Oh, btw, I'm mostly 'talking' to those who support canon-only units. Just making sure random people aren't offended.) Example that somebody else used in a debate against joe: "Oh, right, the Empire will have a really big death star (which CAN be built!) and is invulnerable, but the Rebels can defeat it if they build Luke Skywalker (X-Wing mode) and send him against it." I'd like to add a bit: To be truly canon, Imp airbases would be huge and common, would pump out TIEs like hell, and would be in space, most of the time. The death star destroys "planets," but to be truly canon, you'd end up destroying the entire map. But you couldn't see the map, because the Death Star (to scale of course) covers the screen. This is of course extreme to the extreme extremist parameters, but it just shows how bad a game like this can be. If you forget, for a moment, that it's 'Star Wars,' as such, don't you think the books and game and units are good? Canon would only work to a certain extent. To include the spacecraft that joe loves, you'd have to have huge space maps, or have everything to scale (ie everything but big ships remarkably small). Many pivotal battles in the movies were decided only by fate (there is no fate, there is the Force!) and the skill of the heroes. The Death Star's wouldn't have been destroyed if Luke didn't exist, and he can't exactly be a unit now, can he? Many essential unit classes and so on are not in the movies. For example, there is the oft-debated class of the Dinosaurian Gungan Starfighters. These were, of course, not in the movie. Neither were Gungan AA troopers. So, to be canon, the gungans would have no defense against air, and would be desecrated (that's not really the right word...) by the mass-TIE tactics of the canon Imperials. The entire Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series was great. Outcast is one of the best first-person shooters I've ever played. Dark Forces 1 was 'accurately' representing ground combat in the SW universe, and anything can happen in EU... even crazy droid troopers..... and actually, many of the Empire's troopers during the MOVIES were droids! Those who've read Tales of the Bounty Hunters will get it. But wait, that's not canon. Oh deary me. Jedi Knight had rather nice force powers. Which exactly were bad? The dark powers were especially like Vader in the movies, if that's what you like, and the light were basically true to those shown by the heroic canon Jedi. If the powers were any different, the game would be unbalanced therefore too hard/too easy therefore boring therefore not fun at all. (I'm not going to mention Mysteries of the Sith, as it was basically the same as JK1. Please don't argue with me on this- I know it was different, but it doesn't relate to my argument about canon etc.) Outcast improved on the story and force powers. The idea of the Reborn was a rather nice plot twist, providing for some remarkably exciting gameplay. Sabers don't have the 'force,' it was the Valley of the Jedi that created Reborn, but those crystals (I forget the names) ARE the ones used in the movies- check the Visual Dictionaries. I don't see how these games- and others, eg. X-Wing Alliance and XvT (which you haven't started on yet) 'lame.' If you think this, then why are the movies and other EU books not 'lame'? Pummels may be a trifle silly, but if they weren't considered to be a 'leftover' from AoK and were present in the movies, what would you think? The concept is good, and it fits in with gameplay (even though I personally don't use them much). How about just changing the artwork? I'm guessing these ideas are designed for an SW:GB 2, and if you look at the ideas for SW:GB 2 thread, it's clear how many of the proposed unit types could have canon artwork. Hah. Admiral reckons he has long posts. Time to add another chapter to my 'book'....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorranSec Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Oh, and I just remembered. About Lord of the Rings games: There have been plenty of board games, all based on the books of course, but come on, they're board games...... There have been several games made and more in progress; two seperate computer game companies have rights to the movies and the books respectively, so there will be competitive games coming out every Christmas or so. (For the years that the movies are released, of course). I've been checking them out, and it's clear that the movie-based ones are incredibly movie based; they recreate the locations in loving detail, and the characters look practically perfect. But note that they are accurate to the movie characters. Where in the movies did it say that Aragorn looked precisely like Viggo Mortensen? That Balin's Tomb had pillars in each corner? (Or whatever they had). And of course there are the parts that Peter Jackson made up for the movies, including a whole new main character(Lurtz), and the expansion of a small book character (Arwen) into practically the female lead. A company has purchased the 'table wargaming' rights to LoTR, and have created many units and battles which are not mentioned at all in the books or movies. This is a prime example of how good games must not be entirely canon. It's now clear that I'm a bit of a LoTR fan as well. Um... This may seem a little off-topic, but basically it shows that LoTR does well enough without following the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Actaully the Gangun's fighters were in the movies (Watch AoTC, or go to the SW Databank creature section ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhaleeLah Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 what's the name of it in the creature section? I don't have time to wait for each one that I don't recognize to load... KL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_dog no.3 Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 I believe it is the aiwha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joesdomain Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 If they can't put capital ships in as a patch or expansion pack or a sequel then at least add ground and air units that are canon units. They are so many units from the movies they haven't used yet. I figure if they do an update on the game it will be to the scenario editor so people can make better, more realistic campaigns and scenarios. It would be cool to have toy box units in the scenario editor like snowtroopers, rebel snowtroopers, endor rebel troopers, imperial navy troopers, imperial officers like the moffs (But don't make them up, use ones from movie like Tarkin or Jerjerrod), .........etc. Maybe add eye candy units like certain droids to add realism, but don't make them combat units (Maybe add them to the gaia). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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