Xzzy Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Stopped playing the game right after 1.04 released because the combat system was so completely borked it just wasn't fun anymore. No I'm not a backstab whore, it's just the system had been falling apart since release and obviously wasn't getting any better. I noticed Artifex is posting again, which bodes well. Are there any mods going on that put the brains back into saber fighting? In other words convince me if jk2 is worth keeping on my hard drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 why don't you just practice with a light saber a few day's:rolleyes: you can't all way's play with mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted October 2, 2002 Author Share Posted October 2, 2002 ... congratulations on completely avoiding the providing of any useful information. I already know how to use a saber, while I got my ass stomped by the better players I could (and probably still can) hold my own against pretty much everyone else. Since it's obvious Raven isn't gonna fix saber combat, you can be damn straight I'm gonna look for a mod that does it, and if a mod doesn't do it, I'll delete the game. Which is all I'm asking. Take your editorials and post 'em in some other thread, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 2, 2002 Share Posted October 2, 2002 Since i am a nazi for explaining about a mod, i'll link you to the site. http://www.oculis.org/promod/ Mod made by ArtifeX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 3, 2002 Share Posted October 3, 2002 Originally posted by Xzzy Stopped playing the game right after 1.04 released because the combat system was so completely borked it just wasn't fun anymore. No I'm not a backstab whore, it's just the system had been falling apart since release and obviously wasn't getting any better. I noticed Artifex is posting again, which bodes well. Are there any mods going on that put the brains back into saber fighting? In other words convince me if jk2 is worth keeping on my hard drive. Ah, another old-schooler returning to the fold. I remember seeing your posts back in the *ASC* days. Go grab the mod I wrote, then read the "about" and "beta 2 strategy" sections of the official site. Drop me a line at arsartifex@msn.com and I'll meet you in my server for some game time. I see if I can round up some of the regulars to keep us company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 4, 2002 Share Posted October 4, 2002 Xzzy, what exactly are you complaints with the saber combat in 1.04? Why is it "so completely borked"? What has Raven done to make it a terrible game, and what would you like to see them change? Knowing what your complaints are, I'm sure someone can recommend a mod that addresses that. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datheus Posted October 5, 2002 Share Posted October 5, 2002 I again insist... It's the retarded server admins who screw the saber system up... Not Raven... when I play on the Jedi Academy servers, it rocks, aside from the occasional tracing problem (ie, saber going through opponent without doing dmg, which is always gonna happen, no matter what) the settings are PERFECT... On Infinite-Fragging.net's server... I could say less... Blue swings knocking away my red down hacks.. I backed a guy into a corner, and pounded 4 red down hacks. He was in blue. I ended up dying. I almost put my fist through the screen. Also, the saber system is inherently screwy. It's designed half like a sword system, half like a lightsaber system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted October 7, 2002 Author Share Posted October 7, 2002 Originally posted by ArtifeX Go grab the mod I wrote, then read the "about" and "beta 2 strategy" sections of the official site. Didn't have much play time over the weekend, but I did make some room for this one.. mostly just playing against bots. It has some good points, and some bad points too. For one I like the system, the effort of including "aim" with saberfighting makes a lot of difference in how one sets up their driveby as they make an attack. I like how one can crouch and stay still and block almost every attack that gets thrown at you, and I like having to try and weave my way past the opponent's sabre. If nothing else, the mod has made bots MUCH more effective at saber combat.. you actually have to work them down. However, I did notice some concerns. Saber locks were a big one.. it seems like any time someone wins a saber lock, they get a free hit in about 90% of the time that results in a one shot kill. In theory I'd have no problem with this, but the reality is that people can and do use scripts or rapid fire joysticks to win saber locks.. which would give a more "honest" player a severe disadvantage. I think that needs addressed. I also fail to see how the new system makes blue and yellow stances any more viable. I tried experimenting with all three, and it still seemed like the red stance right+attack swing was the most surefire way to smash through someone else's saber. Furthermore, if one is really good at timing, they can do right+attack, then switch to running forward.. and max out the attack bonus meter. I did experience some good results with a forward+attack swing in red, if you can weave around someone's saber it's almost always an instant kill. Blue and yellow didn't appear to offer any similar tactic, and since rapidly banging against someone until they parry and then getting a hit in doesn't work (since you can apparently make infinite blocks now, with all stances), yellow and blue seem useless unless you're hitting someone in the back, or someone in melee with another fighter. What I'm also unsure of is the CSC indicator.. it adjusts too fast, and it's far far too easy to get a dark red circle.. meaning unless you're a complete moron, everyone will be attacking with maximised combat strength. Point being, the CSC needs a "lag timer" so as to reward people who can keep their target centered in the crosshair, and those who are a little bit slower will find themselves at a constant disavantage. It rewards nimble players and penalizes slow ones. Furthermore, if the CSC updated slower, it would permit a skilled player to initiate an attack, dodge an incoming one, then flip around and hit the opponent with his attack with a full CS. Conversely a less skilled player would be forced to constantly backpedal and re-engage, trying to achieve a better positioning (improve his CS). I know that sounds like a lot of criticism, but it's intended to be constructive.. honest. Overall I like it, and when I get the time will want to try it out against real players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted October 7, 2002 Author Share Posted October 7, 2002 Originally posted by Prime Xzzy, what exactly are you complaints with the saber combat in 1.04? Why is it "so completely borked"? What has Raven done to make it a terrible game, and what would you like to see them change? It's screwed up because with each and every patch, raven simply nerfs the current "hot" attack, and forces players to move on to the next one. At release it was the DFA. Then the backstab whores moved in. Now it's all about kicks and blue lunges. Saber/sword combat is at it's best when a combatant has at his disposal a near infinite combinations of attacks to take down an opponent. By slowly neutering each tactic with each patch, Raven strips away the potential choices. It becomes purely a game of cat and mouse.. a player's only goal is to try and find the one "magic combo" that will let him rack up huge numbers of frags with minimal deaths. Then that magic combo gets spread around, and soon enough everyone is doing it. Instead of turning the game into a challenge of memorizing which key combos kill the most enemies, the combat system needs to rely on who has the best aim, the best timing, and the best positioning. He who masters all three is going to be unstoppable, and he won't be forced to spam a special attack to win. ArtifeX's mod is a step down the right road.. it rewards people for being good at timing and positioning, though like I said above it still needs some tweaks in aiming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 Hi Xzzy, It's screwed up because with each and every patch, raven simply nerfs the current "hot" attack, and forces players to move on to the next one. At release it was the DFA. Then the backstab whores moved in. Now it's all about kicks and blue lunges. I disagree that Raven simply "nerfed" these moves. I feel that they (rightly or wrongly) saw problems with these moves and made attempts to correct them. DFA in 1.02 had severe collision box problems, and IIRC you could twirl in the air. At least the first, and I also think the second one were bugs, and were fixed in 1.03. The backstab had problems because it was unblockable, and you could also quickly spin, even though both feet are firmly planned on the ground. Raven saw these as bugs as well, and addressed them. It becomes purely a game of cat and mouse.. a player's only goal is to try and find the one "magic combo" that will let him rack up huge numbers of frags with minimal deaths. Then that magic combo gets spread around, and soon enough everyone is doing it. Unfortunately, I think that is going to be a problem in any MP game where there is a one hit kill, or close to it. Any player that wants to rack up frags is going to go this route, regardless of what game it is. You will probably diasagree with me, but by 1.04, there really isn't that one move that everyone exploits. Although, that being said, there are moves that people spam, but they are quite counterable, even if it is annoying. Instead of turning the game into a challenge of memorizing which key combos kill the most enemies, the combat system needs to rely on who has the best aim, the best timing, and the best positioning. He who masters all three is going to be unstoppable, and he won't be forced to spam a special attack to win. I fear that as soon as you add attacks that do significantly more damage than others (DFA, uppercut, and so on), there are going to be people that spam these moves. A person who masters the combat system properly is, of course, going to be one of the best players. But as long as there are one-hit-kills, there are going to be players that are going to spam them. And isn't that really the most annoying thing? I personnally just play for fun, and not so much for kills, because I am a Star Wars fan more than a FPS fan (which is probably why I like SP more than MP). The thing that drives me nuts is when I am trying to play in the spirit that the game was intended, and some punk just does the same move over and over. Sure, you can counter these moves, but the game isn't really much fun, is it? One way to try and get rid of this situation is to reduce the effectiveness of these moves, which Raven has done. In my opinion, it is the lesser of two evils. One thing that I appreciate Raven doing is allowing the game to be so customizable. Using cvars and whatnot allows people to set up a game that appeals to them. I think that JO is better now than when it was first released, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted October 7, 2002 Author Share Posted October 7, 2002 Originally posted by Prime I fear that as soon as you add attacks that do significantly more damage than others (DFA, uppercut, and so on), there are goi ng to be people that spam these moves. [/b] That's why artifex's system is going to work so well. His system rewards a strong defense.. you actually have to work defense into your tactics, or else you're gonna get smacked down. There are no spammable one hit kills. Instead of taking away offensive powers, Raven should have improved the defense system in the game. They didn't, so it's a horribly broken system that rewards people who are either lucky or know the special key combos. Think how the game would be now if the rotatable DFA had remained in game.. but players who were in a defensive position could block the attack, and send the attacker falling to the ground. Raven lost sight of the fact that swordplay isn't just about being offensive, it's about defense too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 xzzy: so what you're suggesting with the CSC is a sort of "locking inertia", correct? The longer you maintain a good lock, the stronger your lock gets, and the crosshair would shift slowly towards small and red? If that's what you're suggesting, then I think that would work well in 1v1 situations, but that'd be a serious disadvantage to someone fighting multiple opponents. In that situation, that type of system would actually give them an equal disadvantage towards all opponents if they tried to whip their aim back and forth between members in the group. I'd rather reward someone who was able to snap-aim between several opponents at just the right time than force them to back off from combats where they have a numbers disadvantage. That's a cool angle on the CSC, though. Make sure you watch the valley forum for the weekly game night announcement. Love to have you drop in once the day/time is nailed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzzy Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 i suppose that's a good point, most of my play time consists of dueling so it hadn't even crossed my mind. I'm just not sure that making it so easy to get the strongest combat strength is entirely a good idea. Tweaking the range may be in order, or perhaps put it on an exponential curve (you have it set linearly right now, right?). Meaning when your aim is perfect, then and only then do you have the highest CS. Aim off a tiny bit, you're still doing well, but you're not at max. Drift a bit more about the same amout, and you take a bigger penalty. Even playing lazy with bots I can keep a dark red circle amost full time; the only thing that prevents me from completely destroying them is that bots apparently have perfect aim and they also have a max CS. and i'll keep an eye out for the thread. I found some uses for yellow stance too. Blue still seems useless though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Originally posted by Xzzy i suppose that's a good point, most of my play time consists of dueling so it hadn't even crossed my mind. I'm just not sure that making it so easy to get the strongest combat strength is entirely a good idea. Tweaking the range may be in order, or perhaps put it on an exponential curve (you have it set linearly right now, right?). ... I found some uses for yellow stance too. Blue still seems useless though. Just wait until you play against some people online. I'm finding that Blue can be your best freind in a 1v1 situation. My battles vs. ZeroWingZero have become pretty notorious for my use of solely Blue stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerowingzero Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Originally posted by ArtifeX Just wait until you play against some people online. I'm finding that Blue can be your best freind in a 1v1 situation. My battles vs. ZeroWingZero have become pretty notorious for my use of solely Blue stance. Gah i'll never live it down. That's the end of me. *Throws jk2 cd into garbage* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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