ArtifeX Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Razorace brought up a good point in another thread. That is: before mappers can really start to create Saga maps, there needs to be some set of standards/guides on creating them so that they are compatible with all the mods that plan on supporting that gametype. The current thread in the mapping forum is really spread out. What's been learned there needs to be consolidated into two pieces: mapper's guide, and coder's guide. I know there's several people here who have experience coding for Saga maps, and wanted to see if any of them were interested in documenting the details of how these maps should be constructed, and how mod code should work to support them. I think we'd be doing the community a great favor by maximizing the number of mods that use the same Saga format. I'm willing to make ProMod compatible with whatever format we can come to consensus on, and will do whatever else I can to help things along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tchouky Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 My mod which is under developpement will have a saga type gameplay so here are a few informations i can give to you : first i ve made the necerrary changes ASk descibed in the saga map spec thread. second i don't know if ask put it in the thread, i've added a line in saga file in the objective description. bothteams 1 or 0 to allow a team to trigger this objective. i ve fixed the map change problems. i ve added a cvar which controls the numbers of rounds required to win the game. (similar to the duel limmit). if you fix this map change problem then you'll have a new one : scores are not saved cause the qvm is restarted on a map_restart. so i used the same way as id do to save the values : i created 2 cvar which are temporary and non-writable which contains the number of rounds won by each teams ...( i should put that in the same cvar though). i added an entry in the player session info string which saves the personal score in saga maps. i also made the objectives strings to be displayed in big, colored and centered strings instead of a small Com_Printf in the console. i also made a few changes specific to my mod but it's off topic... i think that's all i did for the saga gametype... i may be wrong i ll double check later... if you need the code i wrote then i might post it later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 tchouky: anything gametype-specific that you did would be welcomed. I'd like to see players' get homogenous experiences across all of the mods using the saga gametype. So things like your map_restart fix and your text centering stuff would be things that would be great to standardize. The goal here should be to make it seem as if the Saga gametype was complete and functional in the game all along. It'd be great if we could get some kind of offical code snippet files to post on jediknightii.net and jk2files.com once everything had been agreed on. Many of the coders would be able to do this on their own, but the results would likely be dissimilar. If first-time mod makers didn't know how to get their code compatible with Saga, they might have a lot of difficulty getting people to play their mods once Saga support becomes standard without some kind of guide. My take on what needs to be done: 1. Everyone needs to get some ideas down as to what functionality needs to be added/fixed. 2. Once everything's agreed on (hehe. is this possible?), a simple open-source Saga mini-mod needs to be completed which implements all the right functionality. 3. Beta Test it. 4. Fix if necessary. 5. Post it to the relative file sites. So... Here's something I'd like to see implemented (which I'll work on): setting a player's death as a team objective. This would open up Assassination, or VIP types of maps. From what I've seen in the code, it doesn't support this yet. Tchouky's additions seem like great candidates already. Anybody got any more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 hhmmmm.....what about: 1. setable point value for each objective. 2. some sort of alert system for when certain objectives are under attack. 3. time based objectives, like taking 10 secs to set a bomb in a certain location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azymn Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I don't think Tchouky mentioned it, but he also implemented waypoint flags for the maps, which would create new team respawn points as they advanced. I think an interface for setting the objectives/timelimits/round numbers could also be standardized, to preserve homogeneity as Artifex suggested. And also important: bot support for the 56k'ers. I'm hopeful that only simple modifications to CTF AI would suffice, and it appears there is some teamwork-based AI in the code too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I believe Bot support is already in the system. Of course, any modifications to the system will have to be applied to the the Bot AI as well. As for UI changes, I don't think we need a standard, per say. I suggest we simply create some additions for the UI for the Saga 2.0 but not require it for the standard. Somepeople, including my Mod, are probably have to do some serious changes to the UI for our Mod's features. Razor Ace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 Good comments by all. I agree with razor that there should be some standard additions to the UI. I'd say that there be a list of required elements, but how those elements are presented (and what cvars they control) are completely up to the modder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Well, the only thing I'd "require" would be that all the Saga 2.0 compatible Mods must be able to understand and use Saga 2.0 maps. Of course, we could add some more unusual stuff to the standard that would be nice to impliment, but not nessicary for the map to run correctly. Something like custom Team Icons/colors or something. Which I might add, would be cool to add to the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 Absolutely agreed. Any player should be able to take any Saga-compatible map and use it in any mod they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 Well someone just suggested having cross map scorekeeping. Thou, I don't think it's a good idea, reseting the score after each map keeps things fair. Otherwise, people will often just join the winning team automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eternal Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 you should be a little more realistic tough. there will probably be just a few mods out there that implement it simply because they can (guys that copy all possible and available code into their mod) or because it's a rather 'small' mod. all larger mods will probably need to implement alot of other changes to the saga game type. so i'm sure there will be alot of mods that use it.. but only like 2% of those mods are worthwhile playing. but hey, that's just my oppinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 I'm not sure what your point is, but this mod/standard shouldn't be too big. It only modifies the Saga code, anyway (with some possible UI code as well.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eternal Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 my point is that it's a little useless making a standard for something that all 'good' mods will probably modify to their needs anyway... mods aren't really about standards, but about diffrences to the standard game. so it's a little silly making up a standard that 90% of the mods aren't gonna use, (well they might, but modify it so much that the maps built for the standard won't work) anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 The points of standardizing the Saga gametype: 1. Mappers can create a Saga map without having to make it specialized to one type of mod. 2. Mappers will know before they start what kinds of variations on the Saga gametype they can work with, such as: VIP, waypoints and modifiable spawn points, messages when points are under attack, etc. All of those things would need to have standardized scripting if they were to be portable across mods. It'd also help make sure the saga maps were widely varied. 3. When the maps are portable, the players won't have to be aware of which mods it works with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eternal Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 you're not getting my point are you... offcourse i KNOW why you want to standardize it.. but it's useless because almost no mods will use it.. the mod i'm working on will surely add other things to the saga gametype which i'm sure will break compatibility with the 'standardized' version.. simply because it's useless sticking to standards when it comes to modding simply because 'basically' every mod is diffrent.. offcourse some weapon or saber only mods will be compatible.. but the more advanced the mod gets the less likely it is that the saga maps will be compatible... standardizing mods simply defeats the whole purpose of / idea behind mods... but if you don't agree with me, sure you can write something like this. but it's a waste of time imho.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 14, 2002 Author Share Posted October 14, 2002 Some may choose to implement it, some may not. Each dev is just going to have to decide if they want their mod to be able to run standardized maps. If there's things that you already know that you're going to add to the saga map cfg files, then why not add the scripting syntax to the standard? Nobody will be forced to use what you add, and we're just talking about scripting here, not modifying the vm's to support everyone's different ideas. This is just supposed to be a reference for mappers and modders to make theirs compatible with others' maps if they wish. If I added VIP goals to the standard scripting, then released some map that utilized it, you'd have the scripting standards to go by if you ever wanted to make your mod run that map. That's all I'm talking about. For instance, having many different ways between mods of scripting waypoints into the map files isn't going to help anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 yeah, the point of the standard is to prevent there from being 50 different implimentation syntaxes for the Saga Maps. It just confuses people and discourages mappers from creating new maps. Mappers need to know that they can use ONE syntax and it'll work with any Mod. And frankly, the current saga code is too limiting. In addition, there's another problem that needs to be addressed...Apprently the scoreboard isn't working correctly. It updates the player scores but not the overall team scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monsoontide Posted October 14, 2002 Share Posted October 14, 2002 From the mappers point of View... I agree that a basic standard for Saga is needed, personally I can't be arsed screwing around with different versions of the SAGA mod... it takes so long just to make a 'decent' map that if I have to set up different versions to accomodate different mods is just not going to work. I'll support the most commonly used one and not some freaky little variant. If you need to add feautres, simply release and updated version with support for your mod. in other words KISS. (Keep It Simple....) Just my ten cents. BTW my map with current SAGA support (4 objectives per team) is now available for final testing if anyone here is interested. Final release date NOV1. For more details see the Beta Testing thread. Monsoontide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eternal Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 the base might be the same, but eventough the current gametype and it's 'scripts' are too limiting the syntax will stay the same. and i really agree with all mods keeping the same 'basic' syntax, but for our mod, i'm not gonna implement code we're not gonna use which would immediately break compatibility. therefore you should write some kind of specification, BUT you should limit it as much as you can to the bare requirements you think should be in the gametype.. offcourse you could also make an 'advanced' gametype syntax or whatever, but for most mods that would probably break compatibility... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 That's a given for almost any upgraded standard. It's GOTTA be backwards compatible. Saga 1.0 maps will work with Saga 2.0 compatible Mods. And the point isn't to pimp out the Saga format. We just want to have a standardized format for the various bug fixes and code upgrades to make Saga a varible gametype instead of a beta version of a never fully implimented feature. Besides, the current "Saga 1.0" code by itself is basically useless at this point anyway. There's MAYBE 2 or 3 maps that work for it and it has some fairly major bugs that NEED to be fixed. Along that line, mappers, please don't get discouraged by the lack of a good working standard yet. Just create the maps for the Saga 1.0 format until Saga 2.0 is ready to go and post your feature wish lists here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 15, 2002 Author Share Posted October 15, 2002 Originally posted by The Eternal the base might be the same, but eventough the current gametype and it's 'scripts' are too limiting the syntax will stay the same. and i really agree with all mods keeping the same 'basic' syntax, but for our mod, i'm not gonna implement code we're not gonna use which would immediately break compatibility. therefore you should write some kind of specification, BUT you should limit it as much as you can to the bare requirements you think should be in the gametype.. offcourse you could also make an 'advanced' gametype syntax or whatever, but for most mods that would probably break compatibility... I'm hoping that once we're done, there will be all kinds of different possible features in the map files, but that any mod not wishing to implement one of them that happens to be in a particular map can just ignore that particular section of the map script. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtifeX Posted October 15, 2002 Author Share Posted October 15, 2002 Originally posted by razorace That's a given for almost any upgraded standard. It's GOTTA be backwards compatible. Saga 1.0 maps will work with Saga 2.0 compatible Mods. And the point isn't to pimp out the Saga format. We just want to have a standardized format for the various bug fixes and code upgrades to make Saga a varible gametype instead of a beta version of a never fully implimented feature. Besides, the current "Saga 1.0" code by itself is basically useless at this point anyway. There's MAYBE 2 or 3 maps that work for it and it has some fairly major bugs that NEED to be fixed. Along that line, mappers, please don't get discouraged by the lack of a good working standard yet. Just create the maps for the Saga 1.0 format until Saga 2.0 is ready to go and post your feature wish lists here. I take it when you say "1.0" you're referring to the info in the stuck thread? If there's some document already out there, post a link to it--i haven't seen that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 By "Saga 1.0", I meant the default, untouched Saga code that's already in the game. And here is the thread for the current Saga code discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monsoontide Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Hi Guys, Have started getting feedback from my testers now they have managed to get SAGA working and so far the main problem they encounter is that there is no list of objectives visable on screen for each team. I didn't notice any options in the code for this - Is there one? Can this be implemented? It would seem a rather vital aspect of the game mode. Thanks Monsoontide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 It's not implimented. Maybe put in some sort of compass code that points you towards the closest or "next" objective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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