CHURCH

[Guest DarthMace]

i hope God can fogive me for what i'm about to do on this topic

 

[This message has been edited by DarthMace (edited May 06, 2000).]

[Jedi Calypso]

first of all, congrats to barnabas on starting the most successful thread ive seen on the board yet.

 

second of all, thank you to all the people who have wondserfully illastrated the chritian faith here (ie: shade shifter and jedi horn)

 

and lastly, im sorry for all of you who have not been touched by the hand of GOD yet, i only hope that in your lifetime, you are showed HIS love.

 

 

 

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The Un-Council's Disgruntled Bounty Hunter

-Calypso

[Guest jedihorn1]

Originally posted by Acid_Rain327:

So, now you're saying that science is the work of the devil, as it lures us from the Bible?

 

Right...so, what I'm seeing is that science allows us to help fight and cure disease and suffering, which God allows to remain on this planet and hurt his children, but at the same time, science is also an evil

because it draws us away from that which allows these diseases to remain...uh huh...

 

 

Given a choice between the Bible and science capable of helping people who are suffering, supposedly under the will of God, I'd take the damn science over the Bible any day.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 06, 2000).]

I never said Science was a work of the devil, i was merely correcting the statement, I personally, have nothing against science. I am very scientific in the way that i approach things. I just dont RELEY on science to prove everything, because there are some things that science cannot prove. Science is not evil; it is what men do with science that makes it potentially evil. It is like the old saying that guns dont kill people, people kill people. Same principal. I don't care what stance that you have on religion, I think all can agree on that statement.

 

 

-----------------Check out my site for SW news rumors, fan fiction and chat! <A HREF="http://jedihorn1.homestead.com/jedihorn1.html

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There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

 

[This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 07, 2000).]

[Guest Jericho]

Ok, a few things to address here...

 

 

"Becasue there is no way to the Father accept through the Son."

-Barnabas Antilles

 

"and lastly, im sorry for all of you who have not been touched by the hand of GOD yet, i only hope that in your lifetime, you are showed HIS love"

-Jedi Calypso

 

It's statements like these that disturb me.

 

Thank you so much Calypso for your concern. But I don't need it. I don't need to hear how you think your way is the only path and your belief is absolute. I don't believe it is, and I'm not going to change my view because you're concerned about my faith. The only people who should be concerened with my faith is ME and GOD.

 

"As for religion I am a christian but I have no denomination. I beleive in God and the Bible and that Jesus died on the cross. Tell me how that is organized."

-Barnabas Antilles

 

Isn't Christianity an organized religion? If you claim a religion, is it not organized? As in...a group of people gathering with the same faith?

 

My problem is that you seem to discount the possibility that a person can have a personal relationship with God. Is it not possible that everyone has different experiences and everyone can have different believes in the same being?

 

Again, I have to wonder why humans seem to grasp this ideal that God would only accept their belief. Is God so narrowminded? I can't believe that, and won't accept anyone else telling me I need to do something to gain his favor.

 

I believe. Period.

 

 

 

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Jericho

Break the walls down.

[Guest Barnabas Antilies]

I have to wonder why humans seem to grasp this ideal that God would only accept their belief. Is God so narrowminded? I can't believe that, and won't accept anyone else telling me I need to do something to gain his favor.

 

I believe. Period. -Jericho

 

 

He is not narrow minded. But if this god that you have imagined is the same as the God I beleive in and have a personal realationship with, than there is no other way to him accept through Jesus Christ. Because that is what God said. Now if he were all the same god that all other religions beleive in than he would be contradicting himself.

The Bible states that this is the only way and I beleive in the Bible. I have faith and that is enough for me.

You say you beleive but what do you beleive in? Self worship?

 

 

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Father Barnabas Antilies, Supreme Chancelor

[Guest Acid_Rain327]

"I just dont RELEY on science to prove everything, because there are some things that science cannot prove." - JediHorn1

 

My friend, there is FAR more the bible and religion cannot prove, than science cannot prove. I guarrantee, if you read through an encyclopedia, and then read through the bible, you will find more solid, believable facts in the encyclopedia than you will in

the bible.

Evolution is so far more realistic than people walking on water, parting seas, etc., so much that it's not even funny.

 

"Science is not evil; it is what men do with science that makes it potentially evil." - JediHorn1

 

If this is true, then what men do with religion, makes religion just as evil. In the Middle East, people kill each other everyday for the "promised land", the "holy land" and whatever the hell else people call it. They all believe their religion states that this land belongs to their religion, and their God has promised it to them. So, they kill each other, for the will of this God.

Next, Adolf Hitler believed that Jews were evil, because they were of different religion than he, so he killed more than 20 million of them. He is one of the most evil, diabolical and cruel men to have ever lived -and he did what he did for two reasons: power, and religion.

Next, show me one member of the Ku Klux Klan that is not religious, does not believe in god, and believes what they do to innocent people everyday is against their religion.

 

Science does have the potential to be harmful, and used for wrong reasons, but it also has the ability to expand our horizons, help people, and heal people - and not through super-dramatic, televised

Religious healing, used for nothing more than empty promotion and commercial purposes.

 

 

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<a onMouseover="alert('Away put your mouse, or Medieval I will get! Hmm!')"> </a>

 

[This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 07, 2000).]

[Guest Jericho]

"Now if he were all the same god that all other religions beleive in than he would be contradicting himself."

-Barnabas

 

Hmm, am I contradicting myself if I give directions to one person this way:

Go 50 feet straight ahead, turn right, go 50 feet and turn right again, go 50 feet turn right again and go 50 feet. (That's a square by the way and ends in the same place it starts.)

 

Then I tell someone else...go right for 50 feet then turn left and go another 50 feet. Turn left again, go 50 feet and turn left and continue another 50 feet.

 

Wow...they both end up in the same place. So is it not remotely possible that God gives people different directions through the many varied religions?

 

 

You have faith and belief in your directions. That's good. I have faith and belief in my directions. Why should we dispute each other's beliefs? So we have different directions, I believe they lead to the same place.

 

"I have faith and that is enough for me."

 

If your faith is enough for you, why isn't mine enough for me?

 

"You say you beleive but what do you beleive in? Self worship?"

 

In a word...yes. I've seen many different religions, I've experienced Catholicism, been Methodist, I participate in Jewish holidays all the time...I've even sat through a Southern Baptist congregation.

 

And through all those experiences I never found one thing that spoke to me directly. But there are pieces of each one (well except Baptist) that I've taken into my own belief.

 

So yes, I believe in self-worship of God. I've formed my own views and faith in God. I believe in the benevolence of God and that if I show faith and live my life in a moral, good way...He will recognize me.

 

Why do I have to do that under the pretense of some religion?

 

 

 

 

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Jericho

Break the walls down.

[Guest Barnabas Antilies]

That has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard Jericho. You are blind. You can't argue that there are more way's to God without saying that the Bible is a lie and you won't do that so don't bother trying.

 

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Father Barnabas Antilies, Supreme Chancelor

[Guest Kurgan]

Pardon me for interrupting, but Hitler didn't kill the Jews because of their religion.

 

He killed the Jews because he believed (or he used this as an excuse, the belief of others) they were an INFERIOR RACE.

 

He himself was born Catholic, but was obviously not practicing the faith he was raised in.

 

Want evidence that Hitler didn't kill the Jews because of their religion? He actively had Jews hunted down and killed (along with the rest) that had been baptized at birth or converted to Christianity (but were born to Jewish parents). Why? Because the inferiority of the Jewish "race" was his excuse to exterminate them.

 

And of course, the point of all the killing (6 million gentiles on top of that, homosexuals, retarded people, handicapped people, intellectuals, political dissidents, Jewish sympathizers, communists, etc), was to get rid of the opposition, by getting the "people" behind a common enemy, in order to solidify Hitler's power. He called the German's the "Master Race" and put forth the supreme Aryan myth. The SS were racist to the core. That was the point, it wasn't some Christian-sanctioned crusade to get rid of the Jewish religion (although there were some Christian leaders that went along with Hitler, out of fear or simply because of corruption).

 

Hitler killed 6 million Jews at most (give or take a few thousand, but not 20 million).

 

20 million was about the number of people Stalin killed during his reign as dictator of Russia. They weren't killed for religious reasons, Stalin was just paranoid as hell, and had the power to erase anyone he wanted.

 

Mao killed quite a few people himself, not sure exactly how many, but in the millions. He was a horrible leader, and let millions starve to death with his every blunder ("Sorry folks.. there goes another million Chinese citizens..doh").

 

Nowadays, people like to call every war or dispute between two countries or groups that are of different religions, a "war of religion" when in reality it's political or economic reasons they are fighting about. Even the crusades weren't about religion, they were about WHO HAS A RIGHT TO THAT LAND. Sure there was religion involved (persecution of Christians, and fear of Muslim conquest of Christian lands), but it played a relatively minor role in the whole process.

 

I am not going to go around saying Science is the work of the devil (proof?). And anyone who wants to say that religion has killed more people only has to look at the 19th and 20th centuries.. World Wars? Nuclear bombs? Chemical/biological weapons? The eugenics movement? Ethnic cleansing? Abortion clinics? Hitler? Stalin? Mao?

 

Kurgan

 

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited May 07, 2000).]

[Guest Barnabas Antilies]

Another intersting thing about hitler was that he himself was half Jewish. His mother was Jewish.

 

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Father Barnabas Antilies, Supreme Chancelor

[Guest jedihorn1]

in answer to Acid's post, you misunderstood and I m sorry if I was unclear. Science is NOT evil, and I am sorry if i made it sound that way. I meant the actions that men do with science were evil, just like what some have done wth religion. it is not the thing that is evil, it is the man's deeds and heart. And the whole thing about the Bible:

1. I have proof that the Bible is real through my life and my expirence. That may not mean anything to you, but it is all i need.

2. "Scientific facts" change all the time. New things are proven which disproves that which was once considered fact. The Bible has remained the same for over 2000 years. Don't even try to argue against that because you can't. I will give you all the historical and scientific stuff to back it up you want. And don't bring the translation stuff in either because that is all they are ,copies. The full Bible still remains intact, no matter what kind of stupid errors man has made with it. Scientific fact is in no way as stable, and any scientist whio knows what he is talking about will say the same.Science and religion can, in fact, go hand in hand. In fact, science has been, and is continuing to be, used to prove the Bible.

Now, you can take what I have just said and take it out of context, twist it, or whatever else you want to try and argue with me. The fact is you will not win, just as I won't. You have your mind set on what you believe to be true, therefore you will only see what you want to see. You can't use that same line against me, because I have seen as you have before, and I was proven wrong by the one true God. Nothing you have said, no argument you have used, has been original. I once used the same exact argument myself, and I was wrong. You take it for whatever it is worth. You don't believe, fine. That is your choice and you have to live with the consequences. Just ask yourself this, what if you are wrong? I know the consequences f I am wrong. It means that there is no God and after I dioe, I go into nothingness at the very worst. So what. If you are wrong, it means that... well i am sure you know what it means. I am not so arrogent as to say I have all the answers. I don't. Organised religion does not have all the answers. I am positive that we have screwed up some where along the way. I'm sure we misinterpreted stuff, or read into stuff wrong. I am fully aware of that and I awknowledge it. Man makes mistakes. Period. Anyone, christian or otherwise, who says they have all the answers is wrong. Only one has all the answers. And some of those answers we are not ready to hear. I do know, that there is ONE God, and the only way to Him is through Jesus Christ. That has been made abundently clear. If you choose not to believe it, that is your choice. I amnot worried about offending anyone with what I have said, because the major problem with Christianity is that people are afraid to say what is true because it might offend. So what. Saving someones soul is far more important than saving their pride. Some one said that they haven't seen God move, that is because so-called christians are afraid to step out and do what He says. You may ask know "why does God have to wau\it on people to obey to show He is there?" Because He wants to, thats why. That is the way He wants it. God doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. He has proven Himself countless times already. Now everyone who reads this can take it however they want. You want to be offended, go right ahead. All I have said is the truth, and if the truth hurts, then something is wrong. If You have a problem with what I have said, go right ahead and have a problem with it. I have said what I needed to say, in hopes it will help you. If you want to ignore it, or get mad, or try and diusprove me, go ahead. All I ask is that you honestly stop and ask yourself "what if I am wrong?" I have asked that question. I have examined my life and beliefs. I know where I stand and I know why. Do you? I am not perfect in any way, but I do know what I believe and why. I have proof through my own life. Like I said, the choice is yours and you have to live with the consquinces of that choice. Seek the truth, and choose well.

 

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There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

 

[This message has been edited by jedihorn1 (edited May 07, 2000).]

[Guest Acid_Rain327]

Well, first of all, I think your opinions are valid - otherwise, I wouldn't bother to read them, or to discuss them with you. I may not agree with what you're saying, but I do agree with your right to state it, and I'll fight for that right.

 

Now, I have evaluated my beliefs, and I've even attended chruch on several occassions to gain a better view on Christianity, among other religions. I know my beliefs, and I know the reasons I stand by them.

There may very well be a God, and I could be entirely wrong - I openly admit that - but, based on what I've said in my previous posts, among with countless other reasons, I don't believe there is a God, nor a Jesus Christ. Let me rephrase that - I think there may have been an actual man named Jesus Christ, who founded Christianity. I don't however, believe the tales of his miracles, and his connection to God.

You say that I should think about the consequences of my being wrong - obviously you mean hell - but I have. I have many, many times, and have come to the conclusion I present before you now.

I am open-minded enough to accept that you and your religion may be right, but I don't have to accept it as my own - why can you not do the same?

I understand your wanting to have faith in something, and finding that in your relgion. I personally don't share that need to have faith in something. I take the world as it is, and maintain a realistic view of things. I rely on what I know to be solid, and not something I have to assume is there. That's just how I am. Now, you can continue to "help" me by justifying your beliefs, or you can accept mine - I accept yours - and stop explaining to me the possible consequences for not sharing your beliefs. I do not need to be "saved".

 

[This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 08, 2000).]

[Guest Jericho]

"That has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard Jericho. You are blind. You can't argue that there are more way's to God without saying that the Bible is a lie and you won't do that so don't bother trying." -Barnabas

 

Wow...so now we get a little hostile? We were having such a good conversation too.

 

I notice you didn't bother to answer any of the questions I posed in my post. Why is that?

 

I congratulate you on your devout belief.

 

Why can't I argue there are more ways to God without denouncing the Bible? I have, and I can. You are proving here that you are, indeed, narrow minded. The Bible is simply one of God's many works to guide people to him.

 

Is the Torah then, to be disbelieved? Is Buddism wrong? Is Judaism wrong? Are the Muslims in error?

 

I'm sure you will tell me yes to all those questions. And I would expect you to. For you not to do so would be denying your own belief.

 

Just as me saying, "Yes, you're right. The Bible and Jesus are the only way to God." would be denying mine.

 

I can respect and accept your faith as your own. I ask again, If your faith is enough for you, why isn't mine enough for me?

 

 

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Jericho

Break the walls down.

[Guest Barnabas Antilies]

In the bible he states there is no way to the Father except through the Son. Why would he lie. If there were other ways don't you think God would want his people to have that option?

 

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Father Barnabas Antilies, Supreme Chancelor

[Guest jedihorn1]

Originally posted by Acid_Rain327:

Well, first of all, I think your opinions are valid - otherwise, I wouldn't bother to read them, or to discuss them with you. I may not agree with what you're saying, but I do agree with your right to state it, and I'll fight for that right.

 

Now, I have evaluated my beliefs, and I've even attended chruch on several occassions to gain a better view on Christianity, among other religions. I know my beliefs, and I know the reasons I stand by them.

There may very well be a God, and I could be entirely wrong - I openly admit that - but, based on what I've said in my previous posts, among with countless other reasons, I don't believe there is a God, nor a Jesus Christ. Let me rephrase that - I think there may have been an actual man named Jesus Christ, who founded Christianity. I don't however, believe the tales of his miracles, and his connection to God.

You say that I should think about the consequences of my being wrong - obviously you mean hell - but I have. I have many, many times, and have come to the conclusion I present before you now.

I am open-minded enough to accept that you and your religion may be right, but I don't have to accept it as my own - why can you not do the same?

I understand your wanting to have faith in something, and finding that in your relgion. I personally don't share that need to have faith in something. I take the world as it is, and maintain a realistic view of things. I rely on what I know to be solid, and not something I have to assume is there. That's just how I am. Now, you can continue to "help" me by justifying your beliefs, or you can accept mine - I accept yours - and stop explaining to me the possible consequences for not sharing your beliefs. I do not need to be "saved".

 

[This message has been edited by Acid_Rain327 (edited May 08, 2000).]

I thank you for your maturity in your reply, and the logic in which you have evaluated your beliefs. I do accept you. Like you, i may not agree with you, but I respect you none the less. I have said my piece and laid it before you. You appear to be an itelligent individual so I am sure you understand why I have done so, so there is no need for further justification on my part. I have simply been stating what I have found to be true, and I shared that with all who have read these posts. I did not do this to shove religion at anyone, for I did not like that myself, in fact, I still don't. All I asked was that people examine their beliefs and seek the truth. I do not consider myself religious, nor do I wish to be. Religion is just that. It is a bunch of traditions and rituals masking rightousness. I seek to have a relationship with my God, and as he commands in the Bible, I try to eximplify Him through my life, and I try to guide others to do seek the same. I do not try to force anyone into anything. All men have free choice. Like Morphious said to Neo, I can only show you the door, it is up to you to walk through it. I simply was showing you a door. I hope the insite that I offered in some way maybee helped to show you a new way of looking at things. I do not have a narrow mind,in response to i believe Jerico, i have simply chosen a door and walked through it. I would be a hypocrite if I faltered or turned back. I have weighed everything that has been said. As I have stated before, much of which I had too thought about and argued before in my life. I have found that those things were not true, therefore I need not entertain such thoughts anymore. Perhaps you have found them to be true, then that is the door you have chosen to walk through. As far as "saving" people; only God does that. As far as helping; i am more than glad to help you all in any way I can, whether it be on a religious level or another, for I consider you all my friends, unless you choose to make me your enemy. I realy see no point in replying to this topic anymore. If anyone would like to ask me questions about anything i have said, for sometimes I do not state clearly what I ment to say, feel free to e-mail me if you wish.

God bless you all.

 

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There</A> is no emotion, there is peace. There is no ignorance, only knowledge. There is no passion, there is serinity. There is no death, there is the Force. (GOD)-Jedi Code

[Jedi Calypso]

powerfull stuff, jedi horn, i agree whole heartedly. I also think it necessary to state to all the non-Christians here that we are in no way trying to push our beliefs on you. Like jedi horn said, we are merely trying to present one side of the argument, the side that Christians (like me, jedi horn,and barnabas for example) believe to be true. all the others here who do not beileive in Cristianity can state their side, it dosnt matter to me. I have no problem with that. But, again, we are not trying to force you into believing what we believe, thats not what we are here to do. As Jedi horn said above, we are merely here to show you the door, it is entirly up to you to open it and go in. I am willing to help any of you in any way i can. e-mail me if you want with any questions you have.

 

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The Un-Council's Disgruntled Bounty Hunter

-Calypso

[Guest Thermal]

Kurgan made a very good point. Hitler from what I've read didn't care much about the Jews one way or another. But he was able to use them (and others like homosexuals) as a scapegoat for all of Germany to use. (Kill the Jews and our problems will be over). I mean if the American President started a massive campaign telling the public that one half was better than another half and that it was OK to kill the other half and take all of their possesions because they're evil, then I hate to say it but a lot of people would listen. Thankfully for the most part we've learned since then.

 

Strangely enough, it seems that throughout history that many of the worst leaders didn't even believe what they were telling the public. In america, George Wallace was one of the biggest racist leaders ever, but he only started telling the public that blacks were inferior AFTER he lost a campaign to another politician because who was claiming that. Senator McCarthy was the same way about Communists. He told America that Communists were everywhere because at the time the public was very paranoid about that. All of a sudden, a minor Senator that no one had heard of before was practically running the country, and had the power to RUIN anyone's life who he disliked.

 

Religion is often used as an excuse for evil men to carry on doing evil things. The reason for this is exactly the same reason that this thread has gotten so long; it's a PASSIONATE subject. Many people believe very strongly one way or another.

[Guest Darth_Simpson]

Was Hitler a Christian? I`m just curious.

 

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Hunger leads to donuts...

 

[Guest Thermal]

I guess that depends on how you define a Christian. He certainly didn't act very Christly towards his fellow man.

 

I wonder which is worse; someone who commits atrocities like these because he strongly believes in something, or one who does it just to gain power?

 

I guess it doesn't really matter to the people whose lives are destroyed becausae of it.

[Guest Darth_Simpson]

The guy who does it just to gain power is by my opinion the worst!

[Guest Hand Solo]

Sorry to take this thread off topic by mentioning Star Wars but since it has been revealed that Anakin was the product of a virgin birth does this not make Star Wars extremely blasphemous, thus making it offensive to all Christians?

 

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Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[Guest Darth_Simpson]

Sorry to say this, but I hate when people is trying to connect Star Wars with religion and stuff. Like, is Darth Vader really a fascist? It just takes the fun out of an extremely good FANTASY-series. Star Wars is something you watch to get away from real life, and should NOT in any way be connected with life on earth!

 

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Hunger leads to donuts...

 

[Guest Jericho]

"In the bible he states there is no way to the Father except through the Son. Why would he lie. If there were other ways don't you think God would want his people to have that option?" -Barnabas

 

But his people do have that option...it's in the many different religions out there.

 

God gave Christians the Bible, because he knew certain people would need that guidance to solidify their faith.

 

It's not lying to say one thing to one person and another to someone else if they both get you to the same place.

 

You can admit that statement, in general is true, can't you? Like my directions example from earlier.

 

God influences people in different ways...because all his people are different. That's what makes us special.

 

We can all have our own beliefs and thoughts, and we can all worship God in our own way, or as a group.

 

Your faith is good enought for you, why isn't mine good enough for me?

 

 

 

 

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Jericho

Break the walls down.

[Guest Barnabas Antilies]

For your sake I hope so.

[Guest Darth Vader]

Originally posted by Barnabas Antilies:

In the bible he states there is no way to the Father except through the Son.

 

This is so true. What I dont get is why people think there are other ways for salvation than through the son. Look, we're lucky there is only one way.