On the possibilities of an expansion pack:

[zerowingzero]

Originally posted by Nill the Mean

Wow, it has been ages since I came here...

This game is dead as disco.

 

mmmk.....

[MrCrusher]

opusvi,

 

Maybe I can help clear up your misunderstandings a bit. The concern in this thread is primarily MP. As few folk will Mod for SP this threads real concern is Mod compatibility for MP. Since you do not play online much I can begin to understand your difficulty connecting here.

 

When Jk2 first released it had several thousand players at any given time in MP. At times it was the third most populated game listed at GameSpy.com. I bought JK2 with MP in mind as did many others. I read many of the reviews and for the most part MP was highly rated. Some reviews suggested that you get two games in one - a great SP game along with great MP game. MP was not an after thought. The jk2/Q3 engine is a MP engine. Once again your assumptions are groundless.

 

But MP popularity was a flash in the pan. To many problems. A Star Wars game that provides poor control, unpredictable saber combat, and random chance luck is a flawed game in my estimation - and I'll suppose any one with common sense would feel the same way.

 

I'm an average player and I don't have an esteem problem when beaten by a better player. You should play with whom you choose - noob, average or elite. Play for fun. And when you do lose using ProMod, at least you'll know why. You control how you play the game, the game does not control you with random variables.

 

There is another inherent flaw with vanilla JK2 - the duel game-type does not allow you to choose your fight, thus it pits noob against elite. I think ProMod intends to change that by allowing multiple challenge-duels per server. Thus you can choose who you fight and when. This will be the single greatest noob friendly feature JK2 has.

 

Your posts are very persuasive (but far to long). And, once again based on loose assumption and twisting of logic.

 

Since you state that you are unfamiliar with the process of how JK2-MP works then you ARE in fact missing something - A valid argument.

 

It would be a shame if LA did release an MP expansion that was five steps back from ProMods excellent combat system. I understand the concerns of this topic, as well you should - had you taken time to play JK2-MP.

 

[opusvi]

Artifex,

 

All right, I'll bite. I'll give the latest build of Promod a fair try and then make a more informed opinion.

 

 

originally posted by zerowingzero:

I'm not understanding the basis of your argument, players of a lower skill should have a good chance to beat one of higher skill? I don't see why this would encourage playing a game knowing that anyone joining a server could be just as good as you even if you have more experence.

 

 

I wasn't saying that players of low skill should have a sure-fire way to fend off higher-rated players so that everyone is on an equal playing field. I'm a firm believer in equality of opportunity, not of condition. However, currently that is the way things are. It's been brought up by people who know of such things that as it stands now in vanilla JK2 MP, it can happen on occasion that a lesser player may infrequently best a more skilled player through dumb luck related to the saber routines or cheap use of rorce powers.

 

I haven't experienced it, but I'm pretty sure that slaying someone with 200+ kills after he's already owned everyone else in that server must be a huge high for a 12 year old Johnnie Gamer. Promod largely removes that possibility, as per Artifex’s intent. Before the teen community flames me I should in fact acknowledge that there are plenty of 12 year olds with the hand-eye coordination of jet fighter pilots and concentration of a kendo master who could give anyone a run for their money in either vanilla or Promod MP.

 

I think we could agree at least that Promod is the best place for a newcomer to JK2 MP to start. I don't even think it's the right place for someone who does not necessarily crave better competition or who has no serious intention of increasing their skills. The casual gamer may in fact feel intimidated by the above average skill level likely to be found in a Promod server. As Aritifex has pointed out, this all depends on the player though. Maybe when Promod takes off someone can approach him and suggest starting a Promod-based Jedi Learning Academy for people who want to learn how to improve their skills on a gradual basis and not just jump into the fray unprepared.

 

[MrCrusher]

Before the teen community flames me I should in fact acknowledge that there are plenty of 12 year olds with the hand-eye coordination of jet fighter pilots and concentration of a kendo master who could give anyone a run for their money in either vanilla or Promod MP

Its very satisfying to tactically out smart these youngsters. Kinda like real life ....the thoughtful fighter usually wins. You can tell their young when start griping then log off.

 

I'll admit that it has been my experience that Melee style games have a greater learning curve than FPShooters. This does indeed add greater separation between the noob and the experienced. There are ways to separate the high score players from the not so high score players in the Duel-1on1 game type... but the code hasn't been written yet.

 

Best one can hope for is to find a server with good ping and players of equal skill. Sometimes find myself playing down to help new players get the hang of things.

Promod-based Jedi Learning Academy for people who want to learn how to improve their skills on a gradual basis and not just jump into the fray unprepared.

Funny you should mention this. I posted a suggestion when JK2 first went into development years ago. Something about ranking players per server. The better your kill/loss ratio the higher your rank. A simple prefix on the name tag e.i. Jedi Adept JonDoe for lightside and Sith lord BoBo for darkside etc. I think I even suggested something like... teaming with a padawan at anytime during a match to combine your scores and increase your padawan's defense rating. An advantage to both Master and padawan. The way ObiWan and Anakin team up. Could be used in all game types as well. A learner could wear his Masters skin... If the padawan's kill ratio improves greatly then he releases from the Master/Leaner team but leaves behind a few kills on his masters score count. Maybe a 2 to 3 level disparity to allow an alliance. Could use a simple join "j" key similar to the challenge "k" key.

 

Adding support for a player skill disparity is far more sensible than dumbing down the game in general.

[opusvi]

originally posted by zerowingzero:

And also, your argument that mp is an optional conponent in games, is pretty much wrong. Most of the games that you listed that had sp only would not work feasably with mp. Think of maxpayne, all battles would last as long as one bullet time press, or WC3, The AI could be ok for awhile but MP is where the game really shines.

 

I haven’t played WC3, but I played StarCraft since the beginning. I never played online because it took too long, unless you got paired up with a rusher which had predictable consequences. Give me the AI over a zergling horde bitch any day. Also, I disagree with the idea that the SP games are not adaptable to MP. I think GTA3 would make a fantastic MP game as would Hitman 2 if done properly. I haven’t played Max Payne yet, but why couldn’t bullet time work the same way slow-mo animations in JK2 are done.?

 

 

But let’s look at some of the best-selling PC games in the past couple of weeks:

 

http://pc.ign.com/articles/377/377288p1.html

 

 

The Sims and all their permutations thereof far and away outsell everything else. It has no MP gameplay and likely won’t since anytime soon Sim Village got canned. It’s been selling strong for a couple of years now. UT 2k3 is the only game in that list geared exclusively towards MP gameplay.

 

MP is in fact for most games optional just as Must See TV on NBC is, in fact very much optional. You don’t have to play it unless you have a game like Neverwinter Nights which is designed, built, and marketed to be played online. Many, heck I would even say a slim majority of all gamers people actually try online MP gameplay. But most do not become regular online gamers.

 

That the SP games I mentioned might not work well as MP games is beside the point. The list was meant to highlight that MP gameplay along alone gameplay is not behind the steering wheel of the gaming market. Some of the best selling games of 2002 like The Sims, GTA 3, Roller Coaster Tycoon (wtf?), Hitman 2, do not have MP gameplay at all. Certainly, many of the top-selling games of the year will have MP components, but not at the sheer core of gameplay save for UT2k3, Neverwinter Nights, etc…

 

The majority of gamebuyers do not buy a game and then immediately rush home to play it with (or against) hundreds or thousands of their closest friends. Clearly, many will probably do so. But it’s not everyone for various reasons. MP helps market a product and keep its owners interested “just long enough” in the game to buy an expansion pack or a sequel. But in over 80% of cases MP gameplay is not an integral or essential component of a video game.It is a mistake to presume that the icing IS the cake.

 

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:

While a mod will probably won't attract as many new players as an expansion would, it would probably keep the ones that are still there. Now the question is, do you want to attract a whole lot of new players that will be turned off by game inballances and lack of inovation over other games, or keeping the existing community frm dieing off?

 

Good question ZWZ, and easily answered... The reason I'm still playing the game is because it has its own flavour, (which appeals to me) as all games do. If an expansion attracts a decent number of players, there will be a portion who feel as I do and will continue to play and contribute to the community in whatever way they wish. It's really that simple. As for the existing community dying off, well it's already dying off at the moment. But it takes a long time for a game to die fully. Look at JK...

 

But of course this point is moot. The ideal situation would be an expansion that doesn't negatively affect modders, making all sides happy and doing nothing but good. But how can we know whether that will come to pass or not? It's worth a shot either way.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by opusvi

Artifex,

 

All right, I'll bite. I'll give the latest build of Promod a fair try and then make a more informed opinion.

Once 3.0 is ready for release, I'll be posting here in the Valley to that effect. Feel free to drop by my official server once that is done.

...

Maybe when Promod takes off someone can approach him and suggest starting a Promod-based Jedi Learning Academy for people who want to learn how to improve their skills on a gradual basis and not just jump into the fray unprepared.

 

 

Not a bad idea. I know some people involved with the jedi academy hosted by jkii.net. I'll drop them an email to see if they'd like to see this happen.

[opusvi]

originally posted by MrCrusher:

The jk2/Q3 engine is a MP engine. Once again your assumptions are groundless.

 

Yes, you're correct in that technically the JK2 game engine is from Q3 Arena. That engine was itself modified by id to better fit MP gameplay specifically dealing with things like latency in Q3 MP. But JK2 was not designed with MP at the core of gameplay but as an additional selling point. Notice first off, the lack of a JK2 MP demo as opposed to AVP2 or MOH:AA which did have them. Look at the comparitive time and effort which resulted in a high quality SP gameplay and the piss-poor performance of JK2 MP gameplay. Time spent on JK2 SP gameplay and time spent on MP gameplay designwise was probably 4:1. So they just imported everything over and made a “mod” of Q3 multiplayer.

 

Secondly, there are only exactly two things that’s actually different between Q3A and JK2 MP gameplay, sabers and force powers. That was part and parcel of the SP experience because Kyle as a quasi-Jedi must have A) a saber, and B) force powers. Even though it was built using an MP engine, JK2 wasn’t designed with MP gameplay expressly in mind and that’s why MP gameplay is as much of a letdown in the first place. They didn't even see the force powers imbalance when they cut and pasted the same dull Q3 MP routines into JK2. When they finally decided to do something about it, the patches just upset and fragmented the online gaming community. Would everyone complain so much about JK2 MP if it had been originally designed as a real MP-based game instead of just a marketing plus? In comparison, CS servers are still popular (at 62 thousand alone tonight) because that was indeed, a game optimally designed for MP gameplay, and not just slapped together in the last few weeks before it went gold.

 

Further, the only “new” component of JK2 MP is to have CTF with a force-negating Salamander on top so that the carrier has a handicap. That’s really not a whole lot of originality to sell a game mostly on the strengths of MP gameplay. JK2 MP was added by Raven without the thought and consideration it they really should have given it. The reason JK2 MP became so popular is solely the enthusiasm of JK2 MP players and the vitality of the community who succeeded despite anything Raven did wrong and not because of anything they did right. To wit, the patches debacle. JK2 may have been spun off by marketers and overly enthused reviewers as a great MP experience but game clearly wasn't designed that way. MP gameplay was incidental, not integral. You point out to that it may have been advertised as a great MP experience with two games in one. Yet at the same time you admit and express your disappointment with the JK2 MP. If the JK2 MP experience had really been that great and impressive then the community wouldn't be dying off today and counting on mods to save them.

 

 

originally posted by MrCrusher:

Since you state that you are unfamiliar with the possess of how JK2-MP works then you ARE in fact missing something - A valid argument.

 

 

Very true. But there’s nothing in current JK2 MP gameplay that I find appealing since there no objective-based, SW canon-themed, CS-like mods and gameplay is essentially recycled Q3. As far as the SP/MP argument is concerned, I really don’t think that that simply because I like to come home at the end of the day and defend/storm the Normandy beachhead bunkers for hours on end in MOH, everyone else wants to do the same or at least SHOULD want do so as well. First of all, you really need a decent (i.e. non-aol connection for any decent kind of online MP gameplay because of basic latency issues.On MOH this is not AS crucial as it is in JK2 because all characters move slower than and the weapons fire is not quite as frantic.

 

When playing SP, latency (the amount of time between pressing a key and the corresponding action onscreen) is limited only to processor speed, memory available, and game engine dynamics. Essentially, it's negligible even for Jedi Masters in SP. When playing online your connection speed (both up and down) becoms part of that equation. On a 56k that delay can be as much as ten times higher than the average SP latency . It might not seem like much, but over the long run a few tenths of a second delay can be frustrating. A quarter to half second delay however, can easily turn even the finest gameplay into mush. Raven did not change the engine for JK2 to significantly improve latency issues when it modded the Q3A MP gameplay. JK2 MP was thus built using two year old latency features. This is a game with a force speed power and frenetic swordfighting that sometimes suffers because of lagtime.

 

Thus a ISDN line or better is the minimum standard for any serious online gamers. But how many DSL/CableModem/T1 subscribers are there in America? Ten million last year. That’s a litle over 20% of over 50 million total people online. Even we were to assume that gamers are more computer savvy than the average population, and thus more likely to have a fast internet connection, it’s important to note that a significant chunk of those 10 million fat data pipes are business and college connections.

 

Further, if there are around 25 million “regular” online gamers in the US. It’s obvious the majority of gamers are not on broadband. Let’s say that online gamers are more likely to be broadband users (or viceversa), then even if we assumed that all 10 million broadband users were online gameplayers they would be a minority. Still let’s be generous and assume that 25% of all 25 million online gamers are broadband users or 2.5 times the national average. That’s still a lot fewer LPB’s than HPB's.

 

Further, LPB’s are more likely to become experienced players because since they have a reliable, fast internet connection, they are more likely than someone with a unreliable, slower connetcion to spend more time playing and practicing a particular game. They also have an added edge in that their lagtime is significantly less than HPB narrowband counterparts and use their speed to their clear advantage. There are a lot of l33t players in any game today who are actually great and some who are just somewhat above average and merely exploit their speed superiority, especially by tweaking the game just like there are a lot of players who would be excellent in an even playing field but whose performance suffers from lagtime. Interestingly enough, the community at large pounces on the latter group while not even acknowledging the former.

 

Competitive online action gaming in (as opposed to say online chess) is thus at least as much about speed as it is about skill. Hardcore gamers very much benefit from their high speed connections and a vicious cycle may develop. Yet this minority of broadband using online gamers are the ones who consistently dominate the online community here and elsewhere. Online games like Quake, UT, or CS revolve around intense competition and when having a broadband connection often makes the difference between being last man standing and a smoking body on the ground. Since most online gamers are not broadband users, many an upsetting defeat because of lag and superior practice time and skills of broadband opponents is enough to dissuade an occasional online gamer from becoming a regular online gamer. Who is really making the money here? Maybe it's broadband providers cajoling the games industry for more MP gameplay in hopes that they can sell more pipes to gamers.

 

 

originally posted by MrCrusher:

Adding support for a player skill disparity is far more sensible than dumbing down the game in general.

 

 

On the whole, I agree with you just as long as any changes made do not scare n00bs away in droves and there are lower sales of the expansion pack or sequel as a result. For example if the expansion pack were released next month with all of Artifex's changes to saber and weapons combat and sales flagged badly that would be bad for everyone concerned. It would be poor for the online MP community since the numbers of players would drop and it would be bad for the SP enthusiasts since there would likely be diminished incentive for LEA to produce a sequel.

 

An EGM article once mockingly pointed out that hardcore online gamers (and SW fanboys alike) share a lot of traits with religious fundamentalists. They are a small group of near fanatical enthusiasts utterly convinced of their own sense of rightness who get a level of attention that is wildly disproportionate to their actual numbers. Many pundits and "industry experts" consider these early adopters to be “the riding crest of online gaming, shapers of our destiny, and harbingers of things to come, blah blah blah…”, I disagree.

 

Even IF it were true, why should they be running the show? Again, going back to an argument that Spider mentioned earlier in this post, having a small minority elite of players decide the future of online gaming for everyone is folly. Tailoring a game to please a 10-20% base of hardcore gamers is not good business, unless you charge them extra. It’s imho, inappropriate to let a self-appointed cabal to decide what fun is and worse yet, what fun should be for the rest of the players. Many people in this post have voiced that wildly catering to the masses and dumbing down the game is wrong and stupid while favoring a course of changes proposed by the a small elite. We should realize that both of those things are wrong, although strictly speaking dumbing down the game for the masses is at least democratic.

 

I respect Artifex, and am now intrigued enough to try Promod, and even willing to pay for it if I do like it. Still I would rather not see all of his ideas incorporated en masse into JK3 unless a majority (or at least a clear plurality) of players truly wanted it that way. Even then I would rather JK3 have a complex/simple saber routine available as a check box in the set-up screen as an optional game setting instead of just hardcoded in. First of all, it would complicate the SP experience for non-veteran players and discourage sales. Also, in MP it might put someone who’s more skilled with the complex (a la Promod) style of swordfighting at an advantage over someone opting for simple saber routines with it’s integral randomness. Of course, they can always learn to play Promod style or maybe servers can be divided into simple and complex saber fighting so everyone would find a fit for their style of playing. But people should have the choice. N00bs and casual JK3 players can get a fluffy game with pretty SW mythos and serious competitive players can have the more intense and dextrous swordfighting they want.

 

[Lathain Valtiel]

Very true. But there’s nothing in current JK2 MP gameplay that I find appealing since there no objective-based, SW canon-themed, CS-like mods and gameplay is essentially recycled Q3.

 

I have ONE word for you. Saga. Assuming ArtifeX HOPEFULLY stuffs Saga support into ProMod 4, and Saga maps REALLY get off the ground, you'd be sorta happy to see objective based MP added in.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

my hope was that Raven would fully implement saga if they made an expansion which is why I haven't been keen to jump on the bandwagon just yet.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by MMXP

 

I have ONE word for you. Saga. Assuming ArtifeX HOPEFULLY stuffs Saga support into ProMod 4, and Saga maps REALLY get off the ground, you'd be sorta happy to see objective based MP added in.

 

Yes, after I finish 3.0 and any bug fixing patches (3.1, etc.), then I will work on adding Saga support for 4.0. I will also either solicit new Saga maps from some of the best mappers out there (who will no doubt come from my picks for the Promod Media Pack), or I'll do them myself if no one steps up to the plate.

 

My final vision of Promod will be a much more tactical, objective-based game that will necessitate teamwork and communication over run-and-gun lone wolf heroics.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by DeTRiTiC-iQ

my hope was that Raven would fully implement saga if they made an expansion which is why I haven't been keen to jump on the bandwagon just yet.

 

Yes, this was my assumption as well. Which is why it annoys me to no end that LA/whoever is being so damned secretive and not giving modders/mapmakers any warning.

 

I say "whoever" now because I have sufficient reasons to convince me that Raven will not be involved in an expansion if there is one. I could open up a bunch of conjecture on what this could mean, but it's all moot until we get some word from LA/whoever.

[zerowingzero]

No you fools don't put ideas in his head! Ahh who am i kidding, he has already started v4 in his head.

 

RIP ArtifeX actually playing promod

[XylanKasshu00]

Well, you know. We should get some of these Mods and TC's done, that'd definitly keep players around. I love JKII as much as the next guy here. But with a wide range of games and in favor of keeping game intrests alive I say just play a few games, come back to JKII and continue that pattern. This has been posted so many times here I can't count. The topics are always about a new patch or JKII dying. We don't need a new patch, we need people to stop saying the game is dead!

[opusvi]

Since aside from MP gameplay there haven't been a lot of points about improving JK2 in an expansion pack, does anyone have anything else they would like changed?

 

I'd like to see the jumping puzzles toned down, or at least get more creative. I don't even think Mario Sunshine is quite so leap intensive.

 

Also, what's up with all the building-sized, near bottomless rooms and shafts in Imperial levels? What about stormtroopers with vertigo? Do they just get sent to Tattoine as punishment? Tattoine itself would be nice as a level, though I'd pass on the pod racing.

 

I'd like to see if maybe the sequel or expansion pack can have a level which has to be completed from two or more separate angles like DS9:The Fallen. It would be interesting to play the first part of the level can be completed from Jan's perspective and the second from Kyle's.

 

More humanoid droids to fight like AOTC. Maybe a light saber wielding robot-jedi that can keep fighting even after losing limbs.

 

The weapons are ok, but I'd get rid of a couple and get new ones. I'm not all that fond of the wookie blaster really but can't think of anything in specific to replace it with.

 

A difference in skill levels with the imperials. Soldiers with epaulets should have better AI not just better weapons.

 

I dunno. Those are just some of the top of my head. I'm sure there are better ideas.