On the possibilities of an expansion pack:

[Homosexual Ewok]

Did the patches suck?

Yep.

Did the reason we got the patches suck?

Yep.

 

Did *some of us not give up, deal with the changes made, and continue to prosper?

 

Yep.

 

 

Bring on the expansion, the more new content the better.

 

As for mods?

Well...

 

Sorry to say this and it is not meant as a cheap shot, but I think it is kind of selfish for any mod maker to say that new content should be denied to the community just so their mod can be left in it’s current form.

[taboo]

Sorry to say this and it is not meant as a cheap shot, but I think it is kind of selfish for any mod maker to say that new content should be denied to the community just so their mod can be left in it’s current form.

 

I think you missed the point of the orginal post. If the jk2 multiplayer module is changed in the expansion, it will break and depreciate the current jk2 mods (and those under developement). This will discourage future modding and thereby further hobble the jk2 community. Artifex is therefore asking that the source code to the mp changes be released so that modders can fix and add the new features to their mods. I think that this is a reasonable request.

 

I guess the best possible scenario would be that Raven fixes the mp component in the expansion and releases the source code. Will this happen? Judging from 1.03 & 1.04, I have my doubts. So, in the meantime, it's ProMod all the way for me.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Perhaps it is time to start giving credit to those who said JKII was dead.

 

Heh. Maybe it's just because I played JK1 for a long time, but the word "dead" obviously means something completely different to me than it does to you.

 

iIn my terminology, when it becomes difficult to get a game of JO, the game will be dying. when it becomes virtually impossible, it'll be dead.

 

As things stand, in Europe there's a choice of 1.04 servers running all the gametypes that regularly have people in 'em. Good people mind you, no slackers. And long may this continue, and long may I be able to play on them.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, people seem to expect phenomenal success from all their favourite FPS games these days, success comparable to that of CS. Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. It's unfortunate, but it hardly means the end of the world.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Homosexual Ewok

...

Sorry to say this and it is not meant as a cheap shot, but I think it is kind of selfish for any mod maker to say that new content should be denied to the community just so their mod can be left in it’s current form.

 

As mentioned, I think you missed the point of my post.

 

I'm not wanting to deny everyone new content. I'm just calling for whoever it is that would be developing one (big if) to take the long term community into mind when they do so. I don't want them to damage it further by releasing something in the vein of 1.03 and 1.04. If they're going to do it, do it right, then release all of the tools to us so that we can take our existing codebases and update them. No holding back the animation tools or the single player code.

 

I don't want another half-ass patch that further fragments the community.

[WarteX]

This was a great thread artifex! and I love ur work on the promod, its wot jk2 MP should have been from the beginning

[Homosexual Ewok]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

I don't want another half-ass patch that further fragments the community.

 

Agreed.

But to be honest, having a box with "Jedi Outcast: The Expansion" (or whatever it will be called) on the shelves at Best Buy is going to bring in a lot more new players than any mod ever could hope to.

 

A community will die if new players don't come in. There is no way around that.

 

And lets be completely honest here, 99.99999% of the people who are currently playing this game are not the serious minded "pro/comp" type of players.

 

How the damage scales and hit detection work mean nothing to them. The most important thing on their minds is when the new Chewbacca skin will be released.

 

New content = new players.

New players = new life breathed into the community.

 

Personally, I would much rather see 800 servers full of newbies and a somewhat "flawed" patch than 300 servers that are almost all completely empty most of the time.

 

I understand the desire for the release of the code/tools, but if it comes at the cost of no more “official” content, then I vote for the pretty cardboard box.

[Toonces]

I think we all would like an expansion, it would breathe new life into a game that I rather enjoy and hate to see slowly dieing. I don't see why we can't have both.

 

Asking for the SP source is really not quite what we should be asking for, The Quake II source was only released last Christmas, there is no chance that they SP source for Q3a will be released at least until iD is finished with Doom III. What would breathe new life into the community would be if Raven/LA would give us the Tools to expand the Single Player game, and tools to import new animations, I don't think that is too much to ask. I also would like Raven/LA to address this coment from one of the tutorials that came with the SDK

 

Q: "How difficult will it be to make our own custom animations?"

 

A: Michael Gummelt, Raven Software "To make new animations, you’d need a copy of SoftImage… we don’t expect that many people have access to that…"

 

Quite a few people here have access to SoftImage, so their requirement has been met, now according to that statement it's possible, could you please help us Raven?

 

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

One of the things I'm reading here is a lot of 'Us and Them' talk. If you believe that Raven and Lucasarts don't care about what the community thinks, you'd be wrong... I think it matters a great deal to them what WE think. THEY know that nobody knows their games like WE do. THEY know that WE are a huge asset. WE keep these games alive for them! [/b]

 

I agree, there is an alful lot of talk like that, mostly from people who don't truely understand what they are talking about. Raven is a company commited to the mod community, just look at their past releases, SOF, SOF2, ST: Elite Force, Hexen, Heretic, the list could go on and on, all these games have one thing in common, good comunity support. I don't expect Raven to be quite as open as say Epic is, (check out UT2k3 and you'll understand) but they haven't been nearly as open about JKII as they have been with their previous games. Here's where Lucas Arts becomes involved. I don't beleive they hate the mod community either, but I think they don't truely understand how important the mod community is. This game will never be the next Counter Strike, I never thought for a second that it would be, but it could develop into a great game (still) via more support from LA and Raven.

 

The true litmus test for Lucas Arts is SW:Knights of the Old Republic. For those who don't know, BioWare is developing it, and they have a extremely solid track record for community and mod support, all you have to do is take a look at Neverwinter Nights and see how commited they are to continueing their games success via the mod community. If that game ships without extensive moding tools, or they never become available via a download shortly after the game comes out, then Lucas Arts will have failed my litmus test, and truely dissapoint me, and thousands of others who will buy their game. I truely hope they do not tie the hands of BioWare like I beleive they may have with Raven

 

Originally posted by Syfo-Dyas

To do that, we simply need to agree on something and then draft up a document, make whatever revisions are needed, and send it off. This would not be a difficult thing to do, and it's better than sitting around on the forums whining about possible outcomes of expansion packs, or the death of the community. [/b]

 

This is an extremely good idea, I just wish we could know for sure that they would read it and react to it. By reaction I mean an official responce, positive or negative, not just being ignored. I have a contact with Lucas Arts, I am actually under a NDA with them for reasons I cannot discuss, but if we can draft up something reasonable and well written, I will get it to him, and try and get it to Raven. This is a great idea Syfo, now all we have to do is draft the document right and hopefully we can get them to listen

 

Anyway, sorry for making you all read all this speil, but I feel passionate about this Hopefully we can get something done

[Rad Blackrose]

Originally posted by Spider AL

 

Heh. Maybe it's just because I played JK1 for a long time, but the word "dead" obviously means something completely different to me than it does to you.

 

iIn my terminology, when it becomes difficult to get a game of JO, the game will be dying. when it becomes virtually impossible, it'll be dead.

 

As things stand, in Europe there's a choice of 1.04 servers running all the gametypes that regularly have people in 'em. Good people mind you, no slackers. And long may this continue, and long may I be able to play on them.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, people seem to expect phenomenal success from all their favourite FPS games these days, success comparable to that of CS. Ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. It's unfortunate, but it hardly means the end of the world.

 

Team Fortress player since the beginning of time, especially when there was only one prime server left before I headed out for Counter-Strike and wound up at Counter-Strike Radio, formerly Mega Team Fortress Radio.

 

Oh, and excuse me for a second... *taps Beyond the Horizon and KotR comparison* This goes far beyond just standard first person shooters, such as Counter-Strike. LucasArts is the anal retentive old man who does not want to see the younger generations have things they did not *cough Door County, Wisconsin cough*. There are three things I find to be the center of ANY game:

 

1.) Play/Replay value

 

2.) Storyline *Single player only*

 

3.) All the other crap.

 

I wouldn't give two s***s and a f*** if an old game had the lamest graphics or the worst sound in the world. But if the gameplay is riviting enough, or the storyline gets me hooked, that automatically kills criterion 3 tenfold. Glitz and glamour is the style of the gaming programmers today. We used to have games where if your reflexes were not fast enough, you were toast. Knowledge was power. I will be honest. I have been gaming since I was 7 years old. That is ten years (almost 11) of my life as to where I could have been some place else. My first computer I ever touched was a Commodore 64, and by god I am still addicted to Wizard (read: Yes, I have an emulator installed).

 

The old games were able to live up to their hype because they weren't outdoing each other in terms of graphics or sound. I mean, what good is the most beautiful game with lifelike sounds, if the gameplay mechanics blow goats? I almost 100% guarantee that if Raven releases an expansion pack, it will be for one of two reasons, in which the latter would be the more likely solution:

 

1.) Raven wants to address all core problems of the combat aspect and provide a fresh new storyline without LucasArts' incessant bitching.

 

or

 

2.) LucasArts is yanking Raven's chain for more money, forcing them to produce a sub-par product that screws up everything. The expansion is so bad, that the lightsaber is replaced with a riot baton and all guns have been reduced to NERF guns.

 

While I would love to see option one happen, it would be surely a snowball's chance in hell in order of it to happen. Like I stated earlier, it isn't Raven that is the problem; it's LucasArts. Eliminate LucasArts, and we can have the code as well as an expansion that everyone can agree on.

 

And I agree on another part: Next time some whiners start coming around denouncing some attack because they can't avoid it, then we nail his ass tenfold.

[Darth Kaan]

Originally posted by ArtifeX

 

They didn't release them all. They've still not released the animation tools, which is why no mods have any truly new animations in them. They're not planning to release them, either, just like the SP code.

 

That makes sense to me if they are indeed planning on an expansion pack.

[Syfo-Dyas]

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Perhaps it is time to start giving credit to those who said JKII was dead. They were right after all.

Oh, man I think I'm gonna...

 

YUP, I gonna haveta puke!

 

 

 

 

 

BLEEEWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!

 

 

 

ughhhh, I'm okay now... No, wait, not done yet...

 

 

 

mmmmBLAaahhhhh!!!

 

Pleeeezzz, pleeeezzz, no more!!!

 

 

 

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

Like I stated earlier, it isn't Raven that is the problem; it's LucasArts. Eliminate LucasArts, and we can have the code as well as an expansion that everyone can agree on.

 

Wow! These are certainly some wild allegations you're throwing around as if they were gospel...

This is HOW rumors get started...

Some guy invents this stuff in his head, and then starts spouting off like he'd just got off the phone with George Lucas himself!

 

Unless you *KNOW* these things, please don't talk about them as though they were true. I'll gladly support your right to be critical of Raven, or Lucasarts, or JO, or whatever. The bit you wrote about "Where's my gradification", was well put -I'm glad you said that.

 

But some of this other crap your writing, it just got's ta go! It accomplishes nothing. It defocuses our little 'Think Tank' discussion here. It's just a bunch of reactionary pessimism.

 

Please stop, and work toward something constructive.

[Guest Jolts]

How do you figure it's not lucas arts thats the problem? I'm not saying they are, and I'm not saying they're not. They own JO, they hired raven to make JO for them. They paid raven to make patches and updates. Lucas Arts has complete control over media that is released for the game, patches that are released for the game and anything else.

 

If you look at what raven has done for sof2 and what raven has done for JO you see a huge difference. New maps and weapons in every patch for sof2, only 1 update for jo came with 1 completely new map, and a few sections of older maps from sp.

 

I'm guessing a small company like raven depends on the sales of their own orginal game a lot more than a larger company like lucas arts who can dish out game after game thats sucks and generates medium sales and not really be effected too much. LEC has a lot backing from other companies and can afford failure after failure with maybe one medium sized hit title for each year. Thats the way I see at least.

[Spider AL]

While I agree that LEC could do more to make its games successful, I consider the endless reactionary and grossly bile-filled comments, tantamount to claims that LEC's executives are Space-Demons from the planet Xrzx, to be non-productive. LEC is a business, it's a big business. Big business is interested in making big wodges of cash, not in providing a high-quality service. Demonising them is silly though, they cannot escape their own nature. They are what they are.

 

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

I mean, what good is the most beautiful game with lifelike sounds, if the gameplay mechanics blow goats?

 

An absolutely valid point, Rad. But such concerns as the quality of gameplay are subjective. I consider JO to have exceedingly good gameplay. You on the other hand,.. are entitled to your opinion.

 

Many people labour under the misconception that the opinion of the majority should be catered to. This is a fallacy. The vast majority of people in the world are foolish by nature. In the past, there have been majorities that:

 

[*]Thought the Earth was flat.

[*]Thought the Earth was the centre of the universe

[*]Thought that animals have no sense of pain

[*]Thought the Amiga was better than the Atari

[/list=a]

 

Also, the opinion of a self-proclaimed majority should be mistrusted by everyone, because the vocal majority is usually both ignorant and self-serving.

 

So when I say that the only real mistake Raven made was to listen to a self-interested vocal majority of fanboys, it doesn't really matter whether LEC egged them on to do so or not, does it? The mistake was made, the patch released... and even though a lot of us agree that 1.03 was a mistake, shouldn't have been released as early on as it was, ought to have been tested more fully etc...

 

Even though we think that, there are still people who play 1.03 in preference to either 1.02 or 1.04.

 

Subjective, see?

 

Poor Raven. Can anyone blame them for not being involved in the JO community? Since the moment 1.03 was released people have been calling them every name under the sun. I have no doubt they tried to please the community. That's the real lesson to be learned I think, make your game, and then sit back. Bugfix, yes. Gameplay patch, NO. You may want to please everyone, but you can't. Nobody can, and you'll only annoy everyone if you try.

 

It's unfortunate that JO wasn't more successful, yes. But nobody can pin down the precise, exact, incontrivertible reason why it wasn't more successful. Anyone who claims to is kidding themselves as well as everyone else.

 

Because it's not just JO. As stated earlier, the whole online gaming community is going through a lull. And nobody can say for sure why this is.

 

I know why I think it is. I think it's because the games released these days have no soul. They're like McDonalds' happy-meals. All packaging and seasoning, no real meat.

 

Originally posted by Rad Blackrose

We used to have games where if your reflexes were not fast enough, you were toast. Knowledge was power. I will be honest. I have been gaming since I was 7 years old. That is ten years (almost 11) of my life as to where I could have been some place else. My first computer I ever touched was a Commodore 64, and by god I am still addicted to Wizard

 

Mmkay, mate, I have no idea why you felt the need to wheel out your computing credentials... You really don't need to. They don't add any weight to your argument and your opinion would be just as valid if you'd started gaming last week. Of course, some of us started jumping on the home-computing bandwagon a mite earlier than you, I recall many a bleak day in the early '80s when I whiled away the rainy hours playing "The King" and "Touchstone" on my Dragon 32. Don't mention "Pong" though. Ever.

[ArtifeX]

Regardless of who is in control, or what mistakes have been made with the patches, there is still a chance for LA/Raven to make this game what it should have been.

 

1. Release the entire toolset.

2. Have a developer able to answer modding questions in less than 2 weeks.

3. If an expansion is released, gather up all of the best community-made addons and put them on the cd.

4. Don't muck with multiplayer unless current mods can duplicate the new features.

5. Have the developers master playing the game.

[Spider AL]

Tee hee! Your first four suggestions seem very mod-maker-friendly Arti, though I'm not sure how they would increase JO's successfulness in either the pro-gaming community or increase the numbers of players playing the game worldwide... Possibly they would increase the successfulness of mod-makers...

 

Your last suggestion is extremely unlikely to be followed, I have to say. Takes time and effort to master the game, and Raven personnel have full-time dev jobs to do as well... Nor does mastery of the game automatically provide one with the wisdom to effect good game-balance. As much as I'd love to create a game to suit my own advanced style of play, I have to grudgingly admit that there are many less experienced people who have as much right to play the game they want, as I do.

 

I'd welcome any expansion personally, as I agree with those who say that any new JO fare that appears in shops can only enliven our community.

[ArtifeX]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Tee hee! Your first four suggestions seem very mod-maker-friendly Arti, though I'm not sure how they would increase JO's successfulness in either the pro-gaming community or increase the numbers of players playing the game worldwide... Possibly they would increase the successfulness of mod-makers...

All fps's that have stood the test of time have done so on the quality of their mods. People play the vanilla, official version of the game, get bored with it, and either quit or go looking for a mod. If the quality of the mods can be kept high, then those players will stick with the game longer, and will tell others about them. That equals a larger, more involved community.

 

Half-life is the ultimate example of this. UT and Quake 3 are others.

Your last suggestion is extremely unlikely to be followed, I have to say. Takes time and effort to master the game, and Raven personnel have full-time dev jobs to do as well... Nor does mastery of the game automatically provide one with the wisdom to effect good game-balance. As much as I'd love to create a game to suit my own advanced style of play, I have to grudgingly admit that there are many less experienced people who have as much right to play the game they want, as I do.

When trying to balance a game, you have to do one of two things: experience the game in its entirety for yourself by actually playing it often, or have someone whose opinion you trust gain the experience for you, and offer their advice. Of these two, the first is preferable, because you are getting first hand information. Is it practical? In dev shops with a definite deliverable date, probably not. They'll have to rely on a combination of the two. Where Raven screwed up is that they used perfect strangers (the forum-goers and emails) as their advisors. They should have asked some hardcore gamers to closed-beta test it for them.

 

This is another argument to support my stand on LA/Raven not altering the multiplayer balance. Modders actually can afford to play the game themselves. They don't have any publisher looking over their shoulder saying, "Is it done yet? Is it done yet?" They also tend to care enough about the end product to assure that this is done properly. The fact that they have spent so much of their time working on a mod for no other return than their personal satisfaction is evidence of that.

 

Making the game balanced at advanced levels does not preclude it being accessible to new players. I'm not advocating a difficult game, just a deep one.

I'd welcome any expansion personally, as I agree with those who say that any new JO fare that appears in shops can only enliven our community.

Yes, it would bring players in the short term, but if the gameplay remains broken, it will be only the short term, unless those players are exposed to mods that improve upon that gameplay.

[WillyWonka]

I was hoping for some real news on an expansion pack. Instead I get a lot of ruffled feathers over its merit.

 

*sigh*

 

I never post on these forums but this topic finally dragged me out of the shadows, to play with the philosophical gamers. heh.

 

Its obvious to anyone that artifex is correct, yes I know that is a bold statement but I will make it non-the-less. What many of you are not taking into account is simple really. A bad game does not last long in fact, it dies out quickly. If an expansion is released that makes the MP of this game any worse, it will only serve to expedite this game’s unfortunate demise. Thusly boxes in the store will not in anyway help any of us if it is done in the same fashion as previous game changes.

 

All MP games have their fate in the hands of the Mod designers that toil for the rest of us gamers (and a large dose of credit) free of charge. If Raven or Lucas or who ever the heck you all wish to blame, does not assist these few inspired members of our shrinking community, they will no doubt leave. When they are gone so are our servers, the players, and your precious forums.

 

I am surprised that all of you aren’t joining Artifex in demanding decent support from a company we all keep in business. I noticed one of you mentioned “big business” and that they only care for profit. You sir (or madam) are correct, profit is the key. Now did you want me to tell you who provides the profit for these companies? I think you see where I am going with this…..

 

Also I would like to tell Artifex that I have played ProMod B2 and found it to be much better then standard 1.04, however it does need to be cleaned up a bit. Keep up the good work, while some of these people don’t recognize your importance, there are many of us that do. Thanks for your effort and hard work.

 

That is all; please continue with your routine

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Artifex

All fps's that have stood the test of time have done so on the quality of their mods.

 

Ahh but we obviously measure the success of an FPS in different ways. While you're perfectly entitled to your love of mods, I love different things, notably the utter mastery of the vanilla game. Thus are tournaments played for the games you mentioned, UT, Q3, etc. If the vanilla game is not beloved, it doesn't get played, as in the case of vanilla Half-Life. Only the mods are exceptional, and it's worth noting that the most successful, most admirable mods didn't attempt to "perfect" the vanilla game, but instead were a game unto themselves, as in CS, TFC etc. Completely new dynamic.

 

So really, while you use HL as an example of how beneficial mods are, the real benefit of the mods made for HL... have been for the mods themselves. HL is not a big success as a game because of its mods. CS fanatics don't play vanilla HL, and while the popularity of CS may cause sales of the HL CD to go up and further line valve's pockets, CS hasn't caused the numbers of people playing vanilla HL to go up proportionately. I love JO itself, and so mods are all irrelevant to me. What care I- a player- for the fact that the engine is malleable?

 

So the point of all this is: We all want something different from an expansion, right? You're a modder, and so you're interested in the expansion's effect on modders. I'm a vanilla player, and so my interest is in how many players that expansion will attract to the vanilla game, and how it will affect vanilla multiplayer. So here lies the rub, if an expansion is released that pleases me, it might not please you. If it pleases you, it might not please me. If we're very lucky of course, it might please both of us, but there will ALWAYS be someone that an expansion displeases. But let's be realistic here, JO is not a huge world-changing game. If an expansion is released, despite all the prophecies of doom and gloom that litter this thread, it will indeed cause an infusion of players. It may change the gameplay for the worse leaving me high and dry, it may stuff up the mod-making attempts of yourself and others, but it will add players to the community. I consider the risk to be worth the possible gain...

 

But I still say it would be better if the expansion was a completely separate entity, as MOTS was to JK.

 

Originally posted by Artifex

When trying to balance a game, you have to do one of two things: experience the game in its entirety for yourself by actually playing it often, or have someone whose opinion you trust gain the experience for you, and offer their advice.

 

I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be an oversimplification. Being experienced at the game does not give one an innate understanding of "balance." Far from it, if the advanced JO players of the world were allowed to mould the game into what they desire, god knows what hellish game they'd come up with... Rage-afficionados would beef up the dark side, Absorbers would beef up the light side... People become experts because they're willing to adapt to the game. Newcomers just want something that appeals to them from the word go. Experts want challenges, newbies want fun. And every person, EVERY person seems to have a different opinion of what would "improve gameplay."

 

Balancing gameplay is quite possibly the most nebulous, most baffling task one can undertake in the struggle to create a good game. As one gentleman said earlier in the thread, gameplay matters more than graphics, more than sound, it's the most important element of any game... So what makes most games fail? Logically since all other concerns are secondary, it must be because of gameplay flaws.

 

Let's take Half-Life vanilla MP as an example again. Relatively poor gameplay. Uninspiring. CS succeeds instantly, peerless great gameplay is the reason. Same engine, after all. It's the same for so many other games, a lot of people at this time are quite disgusted at the uninspiring gameplay of UT2k3. What makes the gameplay of CS better than the gameplay of HLV? Many people have an opinion, but nobody will ever know for sure.

 

Tried and tested companies are producing games this year that simply don't cut it. This is a testament to the unpredictability of gameplay balancing attempts.

 

And finally, there's the perrennial concern, that of pleasing most of the people most of the time. A mod that pleases CTFers may not please FFAers. A mod that pleases sabreists may not please gunners. Frankly I'm of the belief that the game as a whole can never be balanced. It may be possible to improve the gameplay of CTF through a mod, it may be possible to improve FFA... but improve every mode with a single mod? Very tough. Veeery tough. That would take a lot of time, and many many releases.

 

Originally posted by Artifex

Making the game balanced at advanced levels does not preclude it being accessible to new players.

 

Indeed not, but to achieve that sort of balance intentionally is difficult in the extreme.

 

One must ask the question "What does an expert want from the game?" If I were to answer for myself, I might say... I want sabre damage to be heavier, I'd like rockets to move a touch faster, I'd like Force Sight to be level-by-level comparable with Mind-Trick, I'd like the Tenloss to use up a touch less ammo, I'd like speed to eat mana in the manner of absorb rather than take a big bite all at once, I'd like Drain to be more powerful and I'd like Heal to be more powerful.

 

But who can say what effect those changes might have on the community if they were to be irrevocably applied to JO vanilla, in the manner of a patch? It might be a lot of fun for me simply because I've learned to use everything quickly and efficiently, but the newbies might hate it. Everyone but me might hate it.

 

Detritic popped in last month with the idea that the Tenloss should be able to disintegrate sabreists facing the sniper, if a small target below the blocking range of the sword, like the foot of the target, was hit. This would be great for experienced snipers, but it wouldn't be so great for newbies who have enough trouble avoiding sniper shots as it is. This is the problem: Advanced players want different things from a game than newcomers do, and it's hard enough to stumble onto a gameplay balance that appeals to both, never mind intentionally creating one.

 

Now you, Artifex, could if you so desired release a new version of Promod every month, each month with a few minor changes. You could gauge it's appeal to the masses over the course of a year or two, and at the end of that time you might have a mod that a high proportion of players in all modes approve of, and a mod that appeals to newcomers just as easily... But Raven don't quite have that luxury, I doubt whether they'll ever be able to release another patch without bundling it in with an expansion, which is why they may do so.

 

Originally posted by Artifex

Yes, it would bring players in the short term, but if the gameplay remains broken, it will be only the short term, unless those players are exposed to mods that improve upon that gameplay.

 

Improve is a subjective term, Arti. If a mod existed that was... potent enough to draw players to the game, a "CS of JO" so to speak, I doubt that it would bear much resemblance to JO Vanilla. Seven different types of Half-Life Deathmatch mods would have done little to keep the game popular. Only through complete departures like TFC or CS were HL CD sales boosted, and as I have said previously, CS and TFC did not save HL as an online game, they merely used its engine. For those that enjoyed HL itself, there was a very short, rather bleak future.

 

Therefore, short-term or not, I consider an influx of players into the JO vanilla community to be a positive thing, because there will always be a certain proportion of those new players that grow to love the game, and stick around long after everyone else has left. That means that I, and people of my ilk, will be able to find games and play games much longer than we could otherwise. Hence my assertion that the risk is worth the payoff.

[Guest Jolts]

On a side note of the possibilities of an expansion and what I would like to see...

 

Improved physics. Give me ragdoll physics, give me code that supports vehicles

 

update that rendering engine, pixel shading, bump mapping...

 

improve the animation system

 

multiplayer only, I would rather have them focus on one type of gameplay than divide half the time into sp/mp. But thats just my own selfish thing. Face it,who cares about the rest of you? its all about me.

 

To me expansion doesn't have to stick to the things that other companies have done in the past. Try something new.

[WillyWonka]

I'm sorry, but that seems to me to be an oversimplification. Being experienced at the game does not give one an innate understanding of "balance."

 

Correct. However not knowing how to play makes achieving "balance" impossible. A poor player that made changes to the game would drop the learning curve and reduce a games replay value.

 

Also you people are speaking of wants and ignoring reality. Reality is that this game is going downhill, this must be addressed before either of you can go off on the "this is what I want" tangent.

 

An expansion pack would be great if and only "if" it changed this game either back to its original formula, which worked, or to a better formula which hopefully would work just as well. In its current form it won't matter if you give the expantion away since most of the new players won't stay with it long and many of the old players would leave because of the sudden drop in competition.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by WillyWonka:

However not knowing how to play makes achieving "balance" impossible. A poor player that made changes to the game would drop the learning curve and reduce a games replay value.

 

I don't think that the level at which people play a game affects their knowledge of what they enjoy about it, nor does it affect their right to continue to enjoy the aspects of the game they already enjoy. As for poor players' right to make changes,.. It depends on your perspective. What does one consider "poor?" Anyone worse than oneself? That sort of definition is unacceptable and jingoistic.

 

For example, if I were to say to myself "I've been playing this game since the day before its release, I have a 97.4% victory ratio in total, two out of three duel tournaments under my belt and a maximum FFA kills-per-minute rate of 20... I am therefore qualified to decide what changes need to be made to make this a better game," I'd be a completely megalomaniacal fool. The fact that a person has played a game religiously for a period of months simply does not qualify them to decide what sort of game the rest of the community will be playing for the foreseeable future.

 

You may ask: "Who is qualified then, if not the experts?" Well in my considered opinion, nobody is. I think a lot of the problems in the gaming world over the past few years have owed something to the fact that game companies relentlessly tweak their products with gameplay-altering patches. I believe that a game should be made, and then left alone to find its natural position in the gaming world.

 

Of course, that's probably not going to happen, because not only do people demand these gameplay tweaks, companies now use such patches to try to improve the mass-appeal of their games, hence bolstering their sales.

 

Originally posted by WillyWonka:

you people are speaking of wants and ignoring reality.

 

You say this, but something you said in your previous post is truly ignoring reality:

 

Originally posted by WillyWonka:

one of you mentioned “big business” and that they only care for profit. You sir (or madam) are correct, profit is the key. Now did you want me to tell you who provides the profit for these companies?

 

In fact, this borders on the naive. We, a small group of JO players, mean almost nothing to LEC. They have a sizeable and untouchable market out there, the Star Wars fans. No other company can release SW games, and even if we knew before we bought JO what we know now, I have little doubt that most of us would buy the game anyway, just for the SP and the poor, ephemeral MP experience.

 

Really, it's important to realize that LEC have NEVER had a good customer satisfaction record, they've never been accomodating to modders or editors. While people are starting to become dissillusioned with LEC now, the sales for their next game will no doubt be healthy.

 

Yes, what you say SHOULD be correct, we SHOULD have the power and the motivation to force big businesses to produce higher-quality products, but the reality is that we do not. Those who see a problem are a small minority. Those who have the inclination and the energy to lobby for that problem to be fixed are an even smaller sub-group, and therefore our voice is a tiny tiny whisper amidst the din.

 

If anyone believes for a moment that we as consumers have the power to engender a negative impact on LEC's market, think again. I foresee it'll be at least a few years and several duff games from now before Lucasfans stop buying their products en masse.

 

This does not mean we shouldn't try, of course. It's important that we at least start the snowball rolling down the hill... But it's equally important that we be realistic. It's unlikely that LEC are interested in listening to us at this point.

 

Originally posted by WillyWonka:

this game is going downhill, this must be addressed before either of you can go off on the "this is what I want" tangent.

 

My friend, I have tried my best to convey throughout this thread the important notion that what we want as individuals is subjective, personal to each of us and, perhaps most importantly, unlikely to happen. It's unlikely that an expansion would cater to either dedicated vanilla players, or dedicated modders. It's more likely that it would cater to LEC's pocket, and have one positive effect, that of injecting a certain amount of new blood into JO's tired veins.

 

As for what I personally want, I'd like any expansion released to be a seperate entity from JO, as MOTS was to JK. Who knows whether that will come about? Not I.

[Guest Jolts]

The way I like to think of lucas arts...

 

They have contracted out their games to other game developers, but would another game developer ever contract out a game to lucas arts because of their quality reputation and top notch game engines?

 

maybe since they are a publishing house also you can't think of it that way, but I still do.

[zerowingzero]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Al, i thing that pro players would have a better oppinion about the game then others.

 

I'm not saying those that are better in the game can make decisions, i'm saying they are probably the ones that know the game inside and out, if not the most. They would be a better consultant about ammo usage for a certain gun as they would have tested everything out.

 

Now i see your point that some might be selfish and have horrible suggestions, but through your logic even the ones that know the most about that game's oppinions are no greater than the casual fan or average player. you don't see a flaw in that argument?

[Lathain Valtiel]

I'm not sure there ZWZ.. Spider_AL has a bit of a point there. If the game was catered to the will of the 'pros', the newbies would be left in the dust... Said newbies wouldn't bother playing to become pros themselves methinks.

 

Plus, the term pro is actually an opinion... How does one define pro-ness? Where's the threshold?

 

Err.. I'm going opff on a tangent here. I'm basically saying that if this game was molded to the wishes of the 'elite', newbies would be turned off to the game, and there would just be less players.

 

One thing bothers me though.. If we thus listen to oeople new to the game, we'd lose the elite.. (Read: Look at 1.04).

 

So my question is, where do we strike a balance?

 

(End ramble)

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by zerowingzero:

through your logic even the ones that know the most about that game's oppinions are no greater than the casual fan or average player. you don't see a flaw in that argument?

 

Well ZWZ, in answer to that, I can only give the IQ test example... It's been postulated by various people in recent years that people who score high in IQ tests are not necessarily more intelligent than people who score lower then them. In lieu of this idea, it's been postulated that scoring high in IQ tests... means that one is good at IQ tests. Nothing more.

 

Likewise it could be surmised that if one is good at the game, one kills a lot of people, or is an excellent duellist, or can cap a flag like nobody's business,.. one is good at those things. Nothing more.

 

I've taken a particular path towards my own skill level. I've actually used principles from classical eastern strategy works to supplement my development of an intuitive, innate strategy.

 

How sad am I?

 

On the other hand, I've played eleven year olds who can't form a sentence, who scream "LOLOLOL" after every kill and who lose more unpleasantly than an alligator on acid, who were actually very skilled opponents. I mean, these guys think Musashi is a chinese seafood dish.

 

One doesn't have to be clever to be good at JO. One doesn't have to be male, one doesn't have to be a certain age. One doesn't have to be a pleasant person to be elite, none of these things are necessary.

 

All you need to be good at JO, is an ability to learn to be good at JO.

 

So why should the leets have the right to decide how a game ends up? We hardly ever agree about anything, 75% of us are evil-minded vindictive swines with all the charm of a dead ****roach and by and large we don't care what other players think of the game, as long as we win it.

 

I'm frankly sick and tired of kids with six months' experience of a game looking down on kids with one month's experience. It's ludicrous, we're all here for the same reason, to have fun. In my opinion, nobody has the right to take other peoples' fun away, and so nobody, not leets, not game developers, nobody, should alter the gameplay of a game after its release. That's what mods are for.

 

Ahh, I pine for the days when one could read a magazine review of a game, wait two months, buy the game, and expect it to be the same game the magazine reviewed.

 

But no longer. Sadness.

 

Originally posted by MMXP:

So my question is, where do we strike a balance?

 

Well that's a difficult, difficult question MM. I wish I knew the answer. I'd be rich then. I'd be the next Peter Molyneaux. But I'm only a lowly Spider. My only attempt at an answer to that question is:

 

When a game's released, leave the gameplay be. If it has the balance, it'll become popular and stay popular. If not, bleh, it will fizzle and die, and no harm done.

 

Maybe JO would have fizzled even if 1.03 had never been released. But we'll never know, and we'll always wonder what might have been.

 

But hey, there are still some good lads playing the game (here in Europe, at the very least) so let's look on the bright side.

[zerowingzero]

There was a point i forgot to convey, i didnt mean that EVERY pro player can make better decisions and EVERY pro player knows the game to it's fullest, but i would have to say that a good ladder goer might have tested every aspect of the game first, and worked with diff gun combo's so see what worked and didnt.

 

Comparing to someone who just uses any gun they find, or uses the same strat for every situation, i would say they would have a better oppinion, not the RIGHT oppinion on how to ballance the game. Preferably, i would want someone who tested every aspect of the game making and informed decision, not the person who can score the most in ffa's or whatever.