Dueling

[clonedjedi]

although i agree with the air being stronger and yes i think ranged units can ll hit air but they have a 10% chance of a hit and it doesnt do much to a fighter since trooper and strike mech fire is to weak against air.

 

but fighters shouldnt be built and just float in the air they need a better air style like hangers for air and they do fly bys they have 10 rounds of rapid fire like the naboo shoot there green rapid fire laser for every 3 hits = a round even when they miss and 2 rockets equipped in each fighter. which take out aa units,mechs and hvy weapons very well. rocket can take out a aa turrent from 4 hits thats if they get there.

 

like cmon the tf when the naboo fighters were coming out of the hanger a tf mech destroyer was shooting them down even in the game starfighter the main weapon to take out air is the tf mech destroyer. so i prefer realism over gameplay but even the civs i dont really feel like playing another 7 empires or something in one game.

[Admiral Vostok]

First off can I just ask clonedjedi to use shorter sentences and more punctuation. It gets hard to read some of your ideas.

 

I agree with Corran that in a Star Wars game air is much more important than it is in real life. Yes, troopers can shoot air, but they do about as much damage to air as they do to a Jedi Master, and they have really bad accuracy vs air. I think laser troopers up to the equivalent of a heavy trooper should be able to shoot air, but repeater troopers can not.

 

Sith, so more things can shoot air and it loses that part of it's uniqueness. But the unique thing about air becomes the fact that it is the only class of units that can attack while moving. That sounds pretty special to me.

[swphreak]

I think the air should be sorta like C&C: Generals. How it has to stay lnded when not in use, and it's always flying in circles when they're in the air. And this time, they could have some proton torpedoes or concussion missile (well, some can, TIE, TF fighter, ect dont have room for them, unless you say upgraded ones can. Speaking of whch, a TIE Defender has twice as much room as a X-Wing does for torps/missiles.....). But instead of General's 2 fighters per airfield, it could be more like...... 12 fighters per hanger or 2 squadrons worth.......

[Admiral Vostok]

In Empire Earth, Aircraft had a limited amount of fuel and they had to get back to the hangar before fuel ran out. Is this the same in C&C:G? Because if so that approach isn't appropriate for Star Wars.

 

I think aircraft should always be moving around, but the only way to repair them is to land them in the hanger, where they regenerate over time like garrissoned units do at the moment.

[CorranSec]

I think aircraft should always be able to hover (no fuel worries, they're unsuitable and irritating), but must land (which can be done anywhere) to pick up units and get repairs.

I think I already had a discussion with Vostok about air-carried secondary weapons. Somehow, fighters could gain a limited amount of a certain type of secondary- TIE fighters get concussion missiles, Y-Wings get heavy rockets, A-Wings get light torpedoes- and they could then be used in battle.

But I'm not sure how we decided the secondaries would be obtained. Any ideas?

[Sithmaster_821]

Landing to pick-up units and be repaired is a good start.

 

Secondary weapons-NO

[Admiral Vostok]

Landing for repair and transport: agree. During this time, they should also be more vulnerable to ground fire.

 

Secondary Weapons: I don't recall the discussion... was I against it? If not I am now. I agree that giving some air units special abilities, like letting X-Wings close s-foils, is a good idea, but having limited amounts of ordinance I don't think would work well. I also wouldn't mind giving airspeeders a tow cable, but if you could only use it against large walkers it seems a bit limited, and therefore a bit pointless.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Secondary weapons are a no. They are too micro intensive and in the heat of th battle you simply forget about them.

[CorranSec]

Secondaries: Vostok, we talked about this a while ago. Stuff like proton torps and the like. I believe we were in agreement...

 

Anyway, what's wrong with some secondaries? You most definitely wouldn't forget about them, and limited amounts of micromanagement can be quite good.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I just don't think that you would ever use them in the heat of the battle. You don't have time to press an icon and aim. You may not even remember its hotkey.

[Admiral Vostok]

If that was the case Corran I have since changed my mind. Sorry. You have secondary weapons in FPS and Flight Sims, but they don't work well in an RTS.

[CorranSec]

Heat of the battle? You've just sent your 12 X-Wings to a location, and they'll start around dogfighting with 12 TIEs all by themselves, and all you have to do is sit and watch. However, a few seconds later, you see reinforcements coming in and you want to deal with the TIEs real quickly, so you highlight all the X-Wings and hit the "Proton Torp" key. They all fire off proton torps and you order them to engage the reinforcements. Meanwhile, the proton torps kill the original TIEs.

They also give the space superiority fighters a bit of an edge against the larger kinds of ships- for example, a full squadron of X-Wings (12) could use their proton torps to deal out quite a bit of damage to a cap ship (get their shields to 25%, say) and then you can send in your anti-cap-ship units to finish it off.

[Admiral Vostok]

I'd prefer not to include cap ships. They are too large scale and won't fit in well.

 

If secondary fire is implemented, I'd prefer to see it like the special attacks in AoM, where the unit automatically does it after a period of time.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Ties are easy to deal with when you have a shielded X-Wing...Cap ships are too large...secondary fire like AoM would give you an unlimited amount of torpedoes which is weird...and torps could be use to quickly destroy AA which makes it too easy and overpowered...

[Sithmaster_821]

Secondaries are too micro intensive

[lukeiamyourdad]

Already said that man...already said that...

[CorranSec]

Luke's dad: Consider what I just said. Torps can give X-Wings an edge against a greater number of opponents, but at the same time, concussion missiles might allow a TIE to escape the arena unscathed. And torps wouldn't be very good against AA, and although damaging, would only be cost-effective against tightly packed bunches of ground troops.

I'm not actually proposing SD-size cap ships. Just some ships that are bigger than medium ships (eg the Falcon), like frigates, cruisers, and so on. We make them fit with the scale.

 

Vostok: Look above for cap ships information.

AoM secondaries just don't fit in here. Do you want a Dark Jedi Master to just randomly target a unit to convert every 40 seconds? Do you want an X-Wing to loose an expensive torpedo on a completely useless target every 20 seconds?

I'm trying to come up with some different systems for secondaries than the ones we're used to, like having a limited number, and so on. These are far more appropriate to SW than AoM's, which would've been far better if you could activate them personally.

[Sithmaster_821]

Corran, I think that conversion should be targetable, but concerning AoM, it is rare that I curse my units for using up their special on the wrong guys. You just have to tell the X-wing to attack the unit that you want it to blast apart and it does it every 20 seconds until the unit dies and you move on. Its simple

[Admiral Vostok]

But conversion isn't a secondary attack, it's a special ability. Like closing s-foils.

 

You could easily make it that secondary attacks are automatically used against those units it is good against, while it does not use it on units it would be bad against.

 

I think the secondary attack system in WarCraft 3 is the best I've seen, where you can turn on or off auto-casting.

[CorranSec]

Sith: Ah, but there are so many difficulties with untargetable secondaries. Why should a cyclops throw a spearman with only 2 health left at a lone axeman, when he could pick up a fresh slinger and throw him an a clump of wadjets? The latter, and many other things, could be easily achieved with a bit of simple micro, but for some foolish reason, it wasn't to be so.

Secondary air weapons are a special case indeed. Seeing as they are supposed to be limited, and pretty damned good, they'd have to be targetable. How else will you be able to get a squadron of X-Wings to loose a crippling salvo at a fleeing freighter at the same time? How else will you achieve some semblance of realism and actual fun in the control of your units?

Who (apart from you, Sith) would settle for a timed proton torp fired at whatever unit the X-Wing happens to be attacking when you could have the ability to fire off one from your limited supply at any time? It adds far more fun and tactics to gameplay than the AoM version- you could allow the craft to escape an otherwise-deadly situation by loosing all at once, or save them for some crucial targets.

 

Vostok:

I don't like this idea of automatic intelligent secondary firing. Partially because I doubt it will work programming-wise, but even if it does, there are other concerns. For example, concussion missiles are good against fighter-class ships, but if you've got a pair of TIEs fighting against three X-Wings, with one X-Wing horrifically damaged, what if the missile goes shooting off at the damaged one when it could have destroyed one at full health? And what if you want to use your missiles against something they're not that great against, because it's absolutely crucial- such as launching the final blow against a turret firing at your squadron?

 

Auto-casting really wouldn't work in this situation. It was good for things like Heal, where the Priest healed anything damaged, and things like Fire Arrow, where the magical attack replaced the normal attack. It even partially worked with Bloodlust. But it wouldn't work with Proton Torpedoes or Close S-Foils, just as it wouldn't have worked with Death Coil, Avatar or Polymorph.

[Admiral Vostok]

I suppose it could work. However, the X-Wing will be pretty powerful with shields, proton torpedoes and s-foil opening/closing.

 

Most of your arguments for the secondary attack come from the inclusion of freighters and cruisers. I am against the inclusion of anything larger than an air transport to be flying around. We've never seen a cruiser flying around in atmosphere, and this is a ground battle RTS. I wouldn't mind them being in the toybox, but probably not as buildable units.

[CorranSec]

Well, it's meant to be pretty good. This is matched by its expense and lack of speed. However, with a lack of skill, even proton torps will be useless. And the S-Foils are more of a realism-related novelty than a battle-deciding secondary, only useful for covering large distances.

 

Freighters: Um, the Falcon is a freighter. I'm talking medium ships, like space yachts and all of those. Not actual big, chunky freighters. Although they could be capital ships.

 

Cruisers: I'm talking the small capital ships- things like Corvettes, Nebulon-B's, and so on. I mean, come on, let them in! It's great for gameplay, and not including any that horrifically damage realism. If Impstar Vic can enter the atmosphere, some small big ships definitely can.

[lukeiamyourdad]

corvettes are a no no and even a bigger NO NO for nebulon b's...those things are too large...better things would be freighters and assault transports.

[CorranSec]

Okay, maybe Neb B's are too large. But I'm just trying to think of ships that might work, and seeing as the Corvette can be landed in any spaceport, I thought it'd fit with the scale.

[lukeiamyourdad]

a corvette is 150m long(or something like that)...think about it.