Tonight at 7: Bush's War Declaration

[Breton]

Originally posted by pbguy1211

eagle... sorry, but you're simply wrong all over the place.

 

i'd like to know where you come up with some of your so called "facts." throwing out numbers like you do is nice and all but they hold no ground unless you provide a source.

 

And what about your "facts"? Their only scource is the mouths of Bush and Powell. And in case you didn't know, lots of the information Powell gave the Security Council has been proven to be 100% wrong.

 

Scource: http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/irak/article.jhtml?articleID=511661

 

I just don't understand why lots of the American people puts so much trust into their president.

[Havoc Stryphe]

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

I just don't understand why lots of the American people puts so much trust into their president.

 

Yeah, why should we trust anyone? I mean, why not live our lives in constant paranoia, where everything is a conspiracy and a lie? Oh, but at the same time, we want no wars and no aggression. Everything should be worked out through diplomacy and negotiations.

 

How does that sytem work? How can diplomacy work, if no one trusts anyone or anything they say? How can wars be diverted if everything is based on "lies" and mistrust?

 

Let's face it, the world is imperfect because it is inhabited by a flawed species, humans. Our imperfections delegate an imperfect world, where wars and aggression are the one constant among men.

 

Do you honestly believe in the possibility of world peace? I do. Well, that is, after we start genetically engineering every child birth and conditioning the young minds so that aggression and greed are eliminated from the human psyche altogethor. That, of course, will only work if those overseeing the engineering and conditioning are they, themselves, trustworthy and honest. So in other words they would have to be machines. Which of course would be programmed by trustworthy and honest individuals. Oh wait, that won't work either. You see where I'm going with this? The world is doomed to be imperfect as every possibile future that contains humans in the equation will be subject to our flawed reasoning and imperfect nature.

 

If, at every occasion where war is a possible outcome, you are going to take the line that the war can be averted by diplomacy alone, then you are only setting yourself up for future disappointment and anger at the futility of diplomacy and the failure of the human ability to reason. If this war would have been averted by diplomacy, how long before another war would be threatening to break out in the middle east, or western Europe, Asia, South America etc. You, of course, would stick to your "diplomacy, not action" rhetoric, and, again, would find one nation's leaders at fault for "not trying hard enough" or "warmongering" etc, but eventuality all your judgements will serve to accomplish is to paint a picture of a utopian society that is ever so close but yet so unabtainable due to the horrific nature of the Human species.

 

You will be a self serving idealist, who lives in a fantasy world where nothing terrible ever happens, and meanwhile in this reality you will lash out at those who see the world for what it is, and instead of dreaming of a world that can never be, they take what actually exists and try to make it into a better place even if it won't be "perfect". Sometimes that means taking the route of a lesser evil to ensure the greater evil never see's the light of day. If war now ensures a "better" world in the future by avoiding a vastly larger and more deadly war, then so be it.

 

So the world isn't going to be perfect? So world peace is delayed another twenty years? I have news for you, if world peace and perfection of the human race is what you are waiting for, then perhaps you should look into cryogenically freezing yourself for a very long time, because it isn't a reality that will ever exist. The human race will annihilate itself completely before world peace ever becomes a realization.

 

You know what the irony is, here? I used to think as you did. I was ever the idealist and dreamed of world peace, but my perception was greatly changed at the revelation I had. I will not worry for the world at hand, for it is already doomed by our imperfections. Instead of focusing on the failures of mankind and dreading the how's and the when's. I decided to live my life to it's fullest regardless of the world around me. I would look to my friends and family, and, in them, I would strive to focus on the good and the wonderful, and when my time here on earth expired I would know that what I could affect, I did, and what I couldn't change I let be, and because of it, my life would be full of relative joy and happiness.

 

You can't stop the waging of war anymore than you can stop the rain from falling. Instead place that resolve and energy you would spend criticizing world leaders and aggressive nations and focus, instead, that energy into your realtionships, education, attainable dreams, and hobbies. You will be a happier and more content person for it.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I'm not saying it reflects all Conservatives, I'm saying it gives a bad image of your country.

 

Please explain to me why a statue violates your rights by not featuring you? So just because it wasn't of the particular firefighters of 9/11 it violated rights?

 

The "9/11 firefighter statue" (which got banned, BTW), was supposed to be a tribute after 9/11.. but instead of featuring three firefighters from 9/11, it featured three others.. so it got banned. Hey. we've got freedom of artistry. A statue doesn't have to portray a recent event, does it? And yes, you should see how that's relevant.

[Tie Guy]

Excellently said, Havoc, i'm agree 100%.

 

"Peace is but a shadow of death", an ideal, and nothing more. If we get lost in our own nobility trying to attain this ideal, we let evil run free and spread its terror even further. War is tragic, but its the only way to gain a temporary peace. It won't last, but at least war can, if used correctly, stop evil before it gets out of control and all hope of peace is lost.

 

 

Eagle. As to the statue, do you know why it was changed? Because the real heros were three white men, and people decided it should have a black and hispanic man. That is an outrage and it completely dihonors those men whom it was supposed to portray. that's like saying they aren't good enough to be heros and don't deserve a statue because they aren't ethinically diverse. What an insult.

[Artoo]

Let me explain the firefighter statue, but not to go off-topic, first the picture the statue was based off of:

 

 

As you can clearly see, there are 3 REAL people in this picture. Three white people. The commemorative statue they wanted to create based off of the picture, had 1 african-american, and 1 hispanic man replacing 2 of the real people in this picture.

 

I have no qualms against creating a commemorative statue with ethnic diversity, the problem I had with it was that they were using a photo of real people, so the real people should be in it if they are going to use the photo, they shouldn't be replaced. If they wanted to imagine themselves up a different statue not based on a real photo of real people, then they can put whoever they want in it, but if you use a photo to make a commemorative statue, than you better put the people in the photo on the statue, it's that simple. It was a violation of these people's rights to replace them in a commemorative statue based off of a picture that they were in. How would you like it if you were one of those people slotted to be replaced?

 

OK now, back on course so as not to get off-course. That was my beef on the Firefighter statue. I tried for 20 minutes with google trying to get a picture of the model of the statue they were going to carve, but I couldn't find one.

 

edit: Also, very nicely said Havoc. :clap2:

[pbguy1211]

eagle, for someone who claims to now come from texas you talk a lot of crap against this country. if you dont like it so much i see you with 3 options.

1. do something about it

2. shut up and deal with it

3. leave so we dont have to hear you criticize it while sitting here reaping it's benefits

[pbguy1211]

Originally posted by JM Qui-Gon Jinn

And what about your "facts"? Their only scource is the mouths of Bush and Powell. And in case you didn't know, lots of the information Powell gave the Security Council has been proven to be 100% wrong.

 

What fact have i given that you'd like to counter? Counter it.

 

I'm saying Eagle is pretty eager to throw out numbers that he makes up in his head without giving any type of source to them.

Specifically the 2 million casualties one. Especially since we're giving the civilians time to evacuate which they are doing.

And where the hell did I ever quote anything from Bush or Powell?

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Let me say that your own views aren't too clear either.

 

I can't quote sources because:

 

1. I don't have a scanner.

 

2. You don't speak Norwegian. Most likely you can't even read it aloud off of a paper because of the awkward-looking spelling. If I quoted something it'd be extremely easy for you to say "heh, right, it could say anything in there." So why should I?

 

Oh, and I'm not sounding anti-American deliberately, I'm stating facts (or being wrong). And I don't just sit here and reap benefits, I give blood and work at an animal shelter (who I also want to adopt a doggie from for a few months/weeks to give it a home).

 

I suggest that before you go off flaming other people, you

 

1. Think twice

2. Think again

3. Stick to what you know

4. Take it to PM.

 

Look, I've been wrong on a lot of stuff in this thread, especially in comparison to Tie Guy (for obvious reasons;)), and I could have done However, this gives you no right to flame me. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, don't go into a debate thread.

 

Yes, I said 2 million. I stand by that. But the number was 400 000 to 2 million, as I also said. It's more likely that 400 000 die than that 2 million die, which was also said by the people who wrote the article. Personally, I think only something like 400 000 people will die.

 

Reparations costs source: TIME.

 

There. Are you done now?

[pbguy1211]

oh my god... i can't wait to go home and when i have more time take you to task SPECIFICALLY on so many of the things you've said in this thread. I don't have the time now, and it won't be "flaming" as you claim I have to you... but you've flamed this country and it's government as much as i have you... you're so wrong all over the place it's not even funny and I didn't want to waste my time in argueing with you before, but now you're nearing my limit and i've about had it with your false "facts" and accusations. quit hiding behind the "grandparents" claim. you know no one will attack them and their credibility because it wouldn't be fair, but come up with some substantial proof about anything you say before you spout off about it. please.

 

[EDIT] Well, we've gone to war and my 13 hour work day will hinder any reply i had in store for the time being... 13 hours of work + 2 hours of commute means my free time won't be bothered on little eagle.... (work relates to the war... hence the longer day, check the profile if you care to put 2 and 2 together...)

[/EDIT]