RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Wehey! A whole thread dedicated to the discussion of movie realism! ...let battle commence! lol Anyway, to carry on from where the discussion was heading in the 'catching-lightning' thread... Deadly Geezer, I see exactly what your saying. Anger and Rage are a basic part of a Dark Jedi's fighting energy. I'm not trying to deny that. I am ONLY trying to debate that Rage AS IMPLEMENTED in MP is perhaps not a great way to represent that anger... To illistrate my point, can you point out to me exactly when in that Ep.I duel - at which points Darth Maul didn't have Rage activated, and then suddenly did? Surely you would agree Darth Maul is equally full of anger throughout the whole thing? i.e. It's a basic Dark Jedi trait if you will - NOT nessearily a force power you activate. That's my point.... Razor, When I was glad you actually gave me some credit, it was this comment I was refering to: I'm just pointing out that Rage and Saber Throw has some movie basis. They've obviously aren't very faithful to the movies. This is my entire point - their not currently faithful to the movies, and I was just pointing out that was decent of you to say that... ...I won't bother next time! When you involved in a debate, clearly stating where you AGREE is just as important as specifically pointing out where you DISAGREE. This DOESN'T mean your caving in and admitting their right! Far from it... it's just clearer for all concerned and it's also the decent way to work through a discussion. I most respect the debaters on these forums who do this - and there are a few. (Prime and Kray are a couple of names which immediately spring to mind. They've disagreed with me, but they've acknowledged they understand the points I'm trying to make..) But anyway... I think we may actually agree more on this topic than we may seem to. I've taken the approcah of just removing those force powers that - as you say - aren't faithful to the movies - in their current form. But your absolutely right too. Instead of just removing them, I could have also adjusted them to make them more faithful to the movies. This is your approach that you prefer, and I actually do agree with you - that's a perfectly legitemate approach... I think it's worth explaining that I actually have other resons for wanting to remove force powers OTHER than for movie realism purposes. I feel that the basic MP game is almost over-saturated with force powers. I think it makes this game harder for some gamers to get into. To get into it properly, they have to remember a plethra of control keys etc. etc. And also, as BloodRiot mentioned, reducing the force power set has the effect of focusing Jedi combat more upon Saber combat - which I think is also a good thing too... This is just to explain that, while I think either removal OR tweaking are both legitemate avenues to achieve better movie-realism, there are also other reasons why I have chosen the removal path... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shock ~ unnamed Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 JK/DF video games are not the movies. Never have been. Never will be. George Lucas sent me an e-mail and he stated in JK3 all the Jedi will carry shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tosh_UK Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 JK/DF video games are not the movies. agree George Lucas sent me an e-mail and he stated in JK3 all the Jedi will carry shotguns. LMFAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 JK/DF video games are not the movies. Good observational skills you've just demonstrated there. I'm sure you next posts of 'computer games aren't paintings' and 'computer games aren't sculptures' will be just as impressive. I am currently working on proving - once and for all - that computer games are NOT, I repeat NOT - Birthday Cards!! Shocking, I know, but I believe this is true! Just give me a bit more time to double-check my figures, and I'll get back to you... btw - I just got a letter from George too. It said: 'I just told shock ~ unnamed that shotguns are going into JK3 -and he totally bought it!! Haha - am I a joker or what?!' This thread is for discussion about how the JKII games 'could' be more realistic to the movies if that's what your into If your not interested in that, then fair enough, but you need not reply... Disclaimer: I am NOT an RPG'er! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly Geezer Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Renegade: I see what you mean now. You're absolutely right. Originally posted by shock ~ unnamed George Lucas sent me an e-mail and he stated in JK3 all the Jedi will carry shotguns. You got that email too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Ok, to make the games more realistic, you might keep the existing weapons (except maybe the heavy repeater), but alter the ways in which they fire and maybe alter their models. The Flechette Cannon's primary fire is fine, I suppose, but the secondary fire just doesn't fit. I'd also add more blaster-style weapons, but have them vary in rates of fire, damage, size of projectile, etc. Allow for stun settings on the E-11 as well. Outside of that, a complete and total overhaul of the sabre combat system and much of the force system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 Deadly Geezer, Thx man Sorry 'bout the heavy handed reply, I was just expecting to have to fight off a barrage of flame... Yeah, George always keeps me in the loop... Solo4114, Sounds like we probably have similar viewpoints. Could you expand on your ideas for complete saber combat and force powers rehaul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Well, what ProMod did was a good start. I'd give players access to all sabre stances from the start of the game, but have them assign power to offense or defense, which would control how well you used the sabre (IE: how likely you'd be to break through an enemy's defenses, how well you could maintain your own defenses). Or, you could let them assign points to each stance, and have offense and defense merge for each stance. So you'd be really good at Blue stance, so-so at yellow, and awful at Red, or some other variation. And I'd make ALL sabre attacks equally lethal. It'd just be a question of when to use each attack and how likely that attack is to break through defenses. No move would be unblockable, but some moves would be more blockable than others. Finally, I'd make sabres able to damage health only and not be affected by shields. As far as force powers go, I'd remove kick altogether, which would eliminate the ability to run on walls (if you want the Matrix, make a Matrix mod). Get rid of drain/heal (the two powers compliment each other), protect, and rage, maybe ditch throw, I'm not sure. I think Vader did use it on the 2nd Death Star against Luke. Alternatively, you could bring in the ability to toss objects around at people and have THAT be throw (IE: the old throw power in JK1). I'd leave absorb in. I think Obi-Wan and Yoda demonstrated it in EpII. I'd leave grip and lightning in as they are. I'd change force seeing to a passive, always-on power like force "sense" or something -- the ability to dodge innately, to sense an enemy's presence, block shots, etc. This would kind of limit the number of force powers, though, so you might want to include new sabre stances or specialty schools of sabre fighting (IE: two-weapon fighting, double-sided weapon fighting, Dooku style fighting, etc.). These stances could only be picked at the expense of picking anything above level one of the basic three stances and they'd be considerably more expensive than the usual sabre stances. If you wanted to master them, you'd basically have to forego the ability to use the other forms. Those are some of the changes I'd make if I had the know-how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 Solo4114, All good points and ideas. I'll have a think about them... But just one thing, I can see where Yoda uses an Absorb-type power, but when did OB1? Do you mean when he stuck his saber out to catch the lightning attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Yeah, that's what I was talking about. It's not like Yoda's absorbtion, but it's the same concept, it seems. How the hell else would a lightsabre blade block arcs of lightning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 28, 2003 Author Share Posted March 28, 2003 I've got no idea - it's a film! Doesn't nessesarily have to be a reasonable explanation - this is fantasy were talking about. It's certainly what SEEMS to be happenning on screen to me - unless anybody knows any different... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haemon Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk Wehey! A whole thread dedicated to the discussion of movie realism! Movie realism? Isn't that an oxymoron? Most fight scenes are highly unrealistic in movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
master_thomas Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 originally posted by Haemon Movie realism? Isn't that an oxymoron? Most fight scenes are highly unrealistic in movies. True, but "realism" as in Starwars' reality. originally posted by solo4114 also add more blaster-style weapons, but have them vary in rates of fire, damage, size of projectile, etc. Allow for stun settings on the E-11 as well. Totally agree with you solo. JK2 has too many splash damage weapons. What good would a stun setting do? Would it be secondary fire in which they lie on the floor and you can shoot them while they don't move for five seconds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 29, 2003 Author Share Posted March 29, 2003 as master_thomas said... Fantasy - by definition - is not 'real' That's why I use the term 'Movie-realism' rather than 'REAL'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by Solo4114 Those are some of the changes I'd make if I had the know-how. Dude, that's like mostly describing MotF to the T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 BTW, Phunk, it helps to actually tell people that you're replying them in another thread. One thing that needs to be noted is that the saber system needs a serious to total rewrite. It's fine if you like mashing buttons but it isn't very "realistic" or involving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryudom Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 *skips lotsa posts* one thing i'd like is locational damage- mmm locational damage. i just loooove headshots heh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Locational Damage requires a better hit detection system for it to feel right. I've got the Ghoul2 Hit Detection up and working (with a couple of minor errors). I haven't done Locational Damage yet thou. i think it's in Omnimod thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoshi Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 well... with a sword made of light i think any hit = you out of the fight for good. somewhere between the searing pain of losing a limb and the burning of the wound being instantly cauterized in addition to major overloading of the nervous system and going into shock i think your opponent would have ample time to finish you off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Uh, just because it's called a "light"saber doesn't mean the blade is made out of light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 29, 2003 Author Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by razorace BTW, Phunk, it helps to actually tell people that you're replying them in another thread. I did tell you (Check the last post in the catching lightning thread...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shock ~ unnamed Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Originally posted by Aoshi well... with a sword made of light i think any hit = you out of the fight for good. somewhere between the searing pain of losing a limb and the burning of the wound being instantly cauterized in addition to major overloading of the nervous system and going into shock i think your opponent would have ample time to finish you off. Yep, exactly. Everyone wants "movie like" fights, well let's look at them. Every single time the blade/whatever you want to call it came into contact with skin the person hit went down for the count. Either they died or they were in too much pain to even stand. Look at the last movie, he gets nicked in the leg and he drops like a sack of bricks. Implementing that into a game would result in either one of two things. 1-Very, VERY fast fights (3-6 seconds). 2-You will have to make the blocking system so ridiculously high/automated that literally 99.99999% of all swings are blocked just to make the fight last longer than 6 seconds. I really don't see either of those being popular with the majority of players. Just take the saber animations you now have, crank up the damage, say 4x and reduce the auto blocking a little. Toss in maybe a few new stances and swings and you have e very "playable" saber system for all game types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeOfPhunk Posted March 29, 2003 Author Share Posted March 29, 2003 I agree Shock, I think how lethal a lightsaber swing is shouldn't just be determined by just 'movie-realism' - gameplay also has to be taken into account. So I'm not convinced any touch with a lightsaber should kill you or incapactate you either, even though this would indeed be more real to the movies. This is a case where 'movie-realism' has to be balanced with gameplay. There was the one case where Luke caught Vader on the arm in Ep.V, but I guess vader was wearing armour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Actually, Shock, there's a third alternative that you didn't bring up. Which is that people would become MUCH more cautious, so fights would take longer. You'd have a few fast and furious sporadic attacks, followed by periods of trying to guage when to attack your opponent, with what swing/stance, etc. I think that you could still have sabres be able to kill in, say, 2-3 hits, though that's not all that different from the current system. If you could do locational damage, I'd say that extremities like arms and legs should give take three hits to kill, and body/head shots would take 1-2 hits. I think that with a decent blocking system (there would be some autoblocking, but it would scale, under my revised sabre system, to your skill level with that particular stance, and would depend on what stance you're using and what stance your attacker is using) could help with the really lethal sabres. I used to play Bushido Blade 2 on the PS1 and that was a game where you could have fights that'd last for a few minutes, mostly because the players were positioning themselves, feinting, etc. The swords, however, were basically lethal. If you hit the body, it'd take one good clean hit or two glancing hits and the enemy'd be dead. If you hit the arm, however, it'd disable the arm. I'm not saying this is exactly what we should aspire towards in JK2 and the future, but it's an example of a system with lethal weapons that really works. At the very least, though, whatever lethality setting you pick (and this could be a server variable), it should be constant for all stances. Just because I swing really hard or swing really fast should not change the amount of damage that the swing does. It SHOULD change whether I batter through defenses or sneak around them, or whether I can defend quickly, or have such strong defenses that you can't break through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 Well, from experimentation, I know 100% lethal sabers without a counter doesn't work. You simply get hit too often since the current system doesn't make an effort to prevent the saber blade/player model from sinking into something without reason. We can probably fix a lot of that but I'm not sure it'll ever be perfect in JK2. Saber damage isn't constant in the movies. The velocity/heft of the swing seems to determine its ability to cut. It's basically a blade with no mass is a very, very high "sharp". It's not perfect thou since otherwise you'd be able to cut thru anything without effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.