Gameplay Suggestions

[Solo4114]

I'm beginning to think that the suggestion to have different game modes, a la UT, is a good way to go. Having a uniform operation for sabres is a great idea in idea form, but I think we've proven in practice that it just won't please everyone. Duelists want more drawn out, cinematic battles, so lowered damage works well for them. CTF/FFA/SAGA/etc. players want more fast paced action, so high damage is good for them. But you can't really mix the two, or at least historically, the game didn't work well that way.

 

On the other hand, I think it's POSSIBLE to have good duels AND have high damage sabres. I've posted a number of ideas in the sabre blocking manual/automatic thread, and the latest one deals with a mixed auto/manual system wherein auto blocking is partially effective, and allows for randomness to enter into things (IE: level 1 D gets you 25% ability to block, level 2 = 50%, level 3 = 75%, but only in non-trump situations, and only against non-heavy weapons), but a manual block/parry button would allow for 100% effectiveness for 2 seconds, and have a 1 second cool-down period.

 

In that way, you'd be able to have fast-paced gameplay that's newbie-friendly and competitive-friendly as well. Talented players could use the block with split-second timing and use it to much greater effect than newbies, but the newbies could still trust to chance (albeit, not 100% effectiveness).

 

Guns would remain effective against sabres, but sabres would also be lethal against guns when the distance was closed. Sabres vs. sabres would require skill and could be more cinematic, with less spamming of "special" moves (since there'd be no special moves), and could be much more strategic (which stance do you use when, when do you throw in that manual block/parry, when do you trust autoblocking, etc.).

[-Kz-]

If you have ever played jk at all in your life you should know that it is certainly quite possible to have good LONG enjoyable duels without your saber being as dangerous as a butter knife.

 

Anyone from the jk1 competitive community can easily attest to this fact.

[Kurgan]

I concur.

 

 

Frankly, the "Bushido Blade" games also had this philosophy.. that if you're good, you can get a hit in and kill them in one hit, but if they're good, they can block everything and make the battle last a long time.

 

"Sudden death" so to speak.

 

 

Maybe this has been thought of already, but maybe in addition to making the saber damage higher for duel servers (but not CTF/FFA, etc and non saber only servers) this could be applied to the "Saber Challenges" as well? I think ideally it could be a check box or "slider" (to control level of overall saber damage... up to 8x or something) for these dueling situations... that way a server could control it.

[Solo4114]

Wouldn't it be better to have lower sabre damage (lower than 1-2 hits, say maybe 2-3 or 3-4) for duels, and higher damage for CTF/FFA? That way the faster gametypes stay fast, and the slower stuff can still be fun.

[The Truthful Liar]

I'm still juggling the idea wether to include a section within the GSD which deals with CTF and duel modes having different areas of game play (as well as the way forces act).

[Solo4114]

That might work better, actually. I mean, given that duels and CTF/FFA are such totally different animals. As I've said, I still think you could keep the same basic system for both, but if Raven decides to stick with vanilla JO style fighting for duels, they should at least up sabre damage and lower blocking (vs. sabres) for CTF/FFA.

[StriderPrime00]

I don't think spliting the game Saber duel and CTF element is a good idea. They would essentially be creating 2 different universe. The skills learn in Saber Duel Only should be easily applied to CTF and vice versa. This is kind of like JO as the SP game is very different form the multiplayer game. Best thing to do is have 1 common system for SP, MP and all the various modes. For Marketing reasons, this will also reduce frustrations with people trying to understand and play the game. Less frustration = better game. Anyway, higher damage saber attacks gets my vote, just so that I can quickly elminate annoying newbies, while I have to be much more careful with an expert duelist.

 

Raven should have released experimental patches for JO to see what the public wants, then implement a more elaborate version for JA. Like I said, public beta testing is in order. It really is the key to a successful game.

[Solo4114]

I dont' see what the big confusion woudl be. Fundamentally, the two game modes are worlds apart to begin with. You act and react within the two modes in markedly different ways.

 

In Duel mode, your primary objective is to kill your opponent. However, you have all the time in the world to do it and, aside from maybe a map that includes a carbon freezing chamber or pits to fall into, or the like, you have no distractions. It's a simple one on one battle, and it can take from as short as 5 seconds to as long as 10 minutes.

 

In CTF, your primary goal is to capture or defend the flag. The game mode is frantic, fast paced, and entirely about getting from one end of the map to the other in the fastest amount of time. Fights are fast, lasting not much longer than 30 seconds before someone is either killed or manages to run away.

 

FFA requries you to kill anything that moves. There's usually plenty of targets, lots of distractions, and a larger environment.

 

These game modes require completely different mindsets to play, and completely different play styles, so I don't really see how it would be that big of a deal to change one more aspect of the gameplay. I'm not saying make them COMPLETELY different, but you could have different damage ratios and blocking settings for different game modes. And in the end, I think it'd enhance each individual gamemode.

[DeTRiTiC-iQ]

Originally posted by Kurgan

You could survive a glancing blow (consult your movies guys).

; )

 

Ok, i've consulted my movies and come to the following conclusion:

 

Survival isn't the same as staying in the fight. in movies the characters only survived because the attacker decided against the finishing blow (or outside influences prevented it).

 

In a game I would consider a respawn the equivalent of being weakened to the point of being unable to fight back. As a result any glancing blows, even if they don't kill you, should incapacitate you to the extent that it may as well have done...

[Kurgan]

You have a point there... (Luke, Obi-Wan, Vader/Anakin, Zam Wessel), but there's also Vader in ESB:

 

He was hit a glancing blow by Luke, and he not only survived, but beat his opponent a few moments later!

[The Truthful Liar]

Thanks for the support Solo, I think I'll go ahead and work on some sections for the different game modes now. :]

[Solo4114]

Notice that that hit his shoulder armor, however, which may have absorbed the blow somehow.

 

Maybe you could get certain pieces of armor throughout the game which would protect against glancing blows, and ditch the shield system. One thing that always kind of bugged me about JO was that the sabre had to bash through the shields before it could get to the meat. Armor would make more sense as a damage absorber. Shields are great vs. blaster fire, but sabres should be able to cut through 'em. Alternatively, we could just drop the whole shields thing and let people get armor as the go along. Morrowind did a good job of creating models that could wear piecemeal armor (IE: a shoulder plate here, pauldrons there, etc.) and while it might take a while to code, you could conceivably include this (might be better for a mod, though).

[Kurgan]

You'll notice that Kyle's shield generator in DF and JK/MotS actually looked like an armored vest (similar to Stormtrooper armor, but metal colored). In JK2 they made it a "backpack" looking thing.

 

Anyway, that's where you're wrong... shields CAN and DO stop lightsabers. Check out TPM. They had shield technology to stop saber blades half a century before Kyle Katarn.

[Solo4114]

Ah, but those are big ol' industrial strength shields. Like the kind you'd find mounted on a ship or other vehicle. Personal shields should be considerably weaker, and capable of blocking, perhaps, one, maybe two sabre strikes AT MOST, if they were to be left in.

 

As for the armor thing, I always thought that the shields were supposed to be a belt, not a jacket with armor on it? At least, that's what it looked like to me (the item you pick up, I mean, not Kyle's clothing).

[nova_wolf]

Originally posted by Solo4114

Ah, but those are big ol' industrial strength shields. Like the kind you'd find mounted on a ship or other vehicle. Personal shields should be considerably weaker, and capable of blocking, perhaps, one, maybe two sabre strikes AT MOST, if they were to be left in.

 

Dont know about the whole which bit did what thing, but a saber would be more for a shield to handle...

 

Rather than having to deal with a tight point of coherent energy for an instant, the shield generator, probably designed to maximise energy repulsion in small areas for power conservation purposes, is now, against a saber, gonna have to deal with a length of area contact, not just a point. The time of contact is also going to be considerably longer.

 

This means it is gonna have to use more of its reserves to attempt to repel the offending energy weapon to save its user.

 

And that is not random ranting - sound reality physics would back that idea.

 

Anyway, whys it matter - in the end, anyoine dumb enough to rely on a personal shield to survive an encounter with a saber wielding opponent pretty much deserves whats coming! Raise the galaxies average IQ a few points.

[Solo4114]

Yeah, but the point was that the shields were capable of blocking quite a few hits in JO. I found that to be a bit problematic. Armor would be one thing, if it only let you survive glancing blows, but the shield always seemed a little strange. Plus, why'd we never see them used in the movies or by anyone BUT Kyle? Did Kyle invent this thing? If so, why is he the only guy using it? Why not patent the damn thing and get rich off of that?

[Kurgan]

The personal shields were not that powerful actually.

 

The shield system used by the DF games seems to be a hybrid of shield and armor technology (although the models probably should show a full body suit, like a Stormtrooper would wear, that projects the shield or has it imbedded, rather than just a vest and belt). This helps explain how it can resist both energy and certain types of explosive damage (though direct "slow" impacts and powerful enough hits tend to punch right through).

 

Lag and the ability to heal anytime (bacta, force heal) and protection made it seem like people were much harder to kill. But if you look at just the starting values, they really are quite fragile.

 

They may have seemed powerful, if you were facing somebody with 200 shields, but the fact is that you only start with 25 (in JK1 you started with far more, though they worked somewhat differently, only reducing damage, rather than absorbing it completely, with a few exceptions).

 

With 100 shields, a few powerful Saber swings will cut it down to pretty much nothing. And they are no help against Force powers and the DEMP2 deals a lot of damage to them.

 

In terms of game balance and "Star Wars realism" I think they do a good job.

[OB1 KNOB]

If they are going to have shields that can resist sabers for 1-2 hits they should show the saber actually bounce off of the shield

(ie: the persons body) rather than pass through. It looks kind of silly to see the saber pass through someone without killing them. Plus it would be a visual indicator that you hit your opponent.

 

Also, the single player shield hit glow would look better for that type of thing rather than a glowing sphere engulfing the entire character.

[BloodRiot]

Personally I dont have anything against the current shields. I never did see a Jedi or anyone else besides Kyle using them yeah but for gameplay's sake it's ok for me. The saber bounce off animation would be sweet tho.

 

Cheers.

[Kurgan]

Agreed about the animation. It's adequate, but it could look cooler when you take a shield hit. I guess they didn't want to confuse players with all the other green colored glowing going on (Protect, Team Energize).

 

Of course, they could have used other colors (besides blue/green/red).

[Solo4114]

Yeah, you could have yellow shields and that'd work fine. Add in the bounce-off animation and I think it would at least be visually workable. I think the prevalence of goodies (bacta, healthpacks, forceheal, drain, etc.) made people considerably harder to kill in addition to the shields. Add into that high sabre blocking and you've got a long drawn out battle on your hands (great for jedi vs. jedi duels, not so great for FFA/CTF).

 

I don't have a problem with having some goodie out there that lets you resist damage (armor, health, shields to a limited extent), but I think that 1.) sabres have to deal with them uniformly (IE: every swing deals the same damage) and 2.) you can't have TOO much of them. The shield stuff really IS nitpicking on my part, especially when I'll grant that armor would be just fine for me.

 

I do think that a better animation would help with the immersion stuff (not to bring that word up again...) and that you could have different colored player glows. I disliked the big protective sphere thing for JO's depiction of shields. You should either have a different sound, maybe send off sparks and a localised, model-shaped version of the green glow, or do what they did with SP.

[StriderPrime00]

I dont' see what the big confusion woudl be. Fundamentally, the two game modes are worlds apart to begin with. You act and react within the two modes in markedly different ways.

 

Yes the modes are different in the sense that you play with a different mentality, but that is why weapons, level design, and resourcefulness of the user comes into play. Personally, I have no problems using a single system to play CTF, Saber only, and FFA. For example, in CTF you are not going to have many close range combat, so the use of the saber is limited. You will probably find yourself using the guns more often to create distance while you run to the finish line. Saber defense will probably be more common then saber to saber combat. In Saber Duel mode, you are not going to use any weapons, but will be restricted to saber combat with force powers only. In FFA and Team FFA, you can use both weapons and sabers, so using a uniform system will work for all the gameplay modes. Besides, I think it is best for the developers to spend the time to develop 1 very solid system, then to break the system into 3 different ok system.

 

In the StarWars universe, Saber damage is decided on where the saber hits the body and not on the situation of battle. So changing the hit ratio of each mode(CTF, FFA, Saber duel) might not be the best way to do it. In fact, I rather see Raven improve their polygon hit detention system to compensate for how much damage the saber attack will do. 1 swing to the head is an instant death, a hit to the arm will take 20% of your energy, a clear cut to the torso is an instant death, if the tip of the saber glances the head it will take 50% damage, etc, etc. I think this system is much more appropriate and much more fun then changing the damage ratio of each mode. Of couse sheild will also come into play.

[taekwondo joe]

a good sujestion would be, create a name, like put in whatever name you want for your charictor, and then a guy talks to you in a cut scene, and uses your name!!!!

[Solo4114]

The locational damage for the sabre might be the better model then. I like that idea. A hit to the arm should severely incapacitate you, but not kill you (after all, Luke and Vader survived without hands, as did Anakin), glancing blows to legs shouldn't kill you (didn't Obi-Wan survive this?) but clear hits on any part of the body or head should.

[OB1 KNOB]

If they make all the saber attacks deal equal damage as well as allow all the attacks to be blocked, it would prevent any one attack, or stance, from having an advantage over the others. Some people would probably still only use one move and/or flail around holding down the attack button (impossible to prevent everyone from doing that) but at least they wouldn't have a greater chance of killing or breaking through the defenses of their opponent. A skilled player would still be able to defeat people using those "techniques".

 

Just to clarify, I think the sabers should be one hit kills. The blocking system could be tweaked a little, but not much. The shield suggestion was more 'if' they decide to put shields in the game. The saber should deplete the shields in one hit though, so they aren't too much of an advantage.