Evolution vs. Creation Myths/other scientific theories

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I asked in a post in the "questions about religion" thread if evolution existed. The answers convinced me that it's something that occupies a good deal of people.

 

Evolution

Evolution, while not 100% proven, is the best, and most widely recognized theory around of how life evolved.

 

"There is no evidence for evolution".

Huh?

 

We've got "a few" fossils from around the world, although I do not see how you can say "a few". We've got a fossil of early apes, late apes, and primates, and then humans. Basically, slowly evolving into people. Same with animals. Pretty good evidence to me. And we know they are fossils, that's been proven as well: When today's beings deteriorate, they leave behind the same stuff.

 

Carbon 14-dating. How can anyone say it's baloney? It's been proven scientifically (do you have any idea of how many houndred times a theory must be tested before it can be as widely accepted as C14-dating?). Thing is, let's say I have a child tomorrow (ooookay:)), and five years from now, the child sees me make a coin. Now, 120 years from then, the child's child brings the coin to a scientists who measures its age using the C14 method, and figures that it was made.. 120 years ago. That's how they proved it.

 

Different human skin colours: If evolution doesn't exist, why did the "descendants of Adam and Eve", or humans, change skin colours as they populated the world? Tell me that.

 

Do it with any item, and they will find the right age. It's based on the theory of half-life, which I will not elaborate on since you should be familiar with every aspect of evolution before you turn it down.

 

It's not like some crazy scientist just thought it up and they used it without ever testing it.

 

Godly creation (with Godly, Reverend, I'm afraid I mean any God)

 

Well, what can I say, Reverend? The Bible says so, but presents no evidence. Your Bible has been wrong countless times before. It thought the Earth was flat. It said that the universe revolved around the Earth. It said that the whole world flooded (which is physically impossible).

 

It says Cain chased Abel (or the other way around) into the labyrinth without giving any darned clue as to why the heck Cain and Abel, as the only two sentiment people on the planet, would build a darned labyrinth in the first place. Just to give some examples.

 

My good christians, why do you still cling so dearly to the Bible? It's allright to believe in religion, so do I. But why still cling to something when 99% of all recognized scientists recognize it as wrong? And when it cannot back its theories up with facts.

 

Reverend, you are quick to say that "Carbon 4 dating is just a theory". But what about your Bible? Our theories at least give evidence; the Bible gives no evidence. You say that you cannot trust people who are around today in this modern world, and who give evidence for their theories and statements; yet, you expect us to blindly follow you in your worship of people long past, and who presented little or no evidence whatsoever of their beliefs. I encourage faith; but remember that faith is just that: Faith. I may have faith that I'll get a video game for my birthday, beause I told my parents I wanted one; yet, I know it's not 100% certain. If I see the presents and not a single one resemble something that could be a video game, I lose faith.

 

Your God can't lie? Well, he obviously has, if he's the one behind the Bible. "Everything revolves around the Earth...:D"

 

Did you ever see Galaxy Quest?

As a Star Trek-like show airs on Earth, a distant race hinges on a few survivors on the brink of destruction from a superior race. Then, as their destruction seems imminent, they come across (don't remember how) "documentaries on a war fought by Earthlings and their space vessels". Now, the same way as no author today writes creation/religious stories as fiction on the same line as Tolkien wrote Fantasy books on the same line as fiction.. no one in this distant world makes fictional TV shows or write fictional stories, of war.

 

Thus they create a replica of the USS Enterprise (or, I think they used some other non-star trek ship to avoid copyright lawsuits), and beam the "crew" of the ship to their planet to fight their invaders. The crew, of course, are only the actors of the TV show.

Just a side note.

[SkinWalker]

Evolution isn't so much something to be "believed in" as it is a concept to accept. Evolution is also not a single concept, but rather a myriad of hypotheses that describe the history of life as we have so far observed.

 

One of the key things to bear in mind is HYPOTHESIS.

 

Richard Feynman said, "When a scientist doesn't know the answer to a problem, he is ignorant. When he has a hunch as to what the result is, he is uncertain. And when he is pretty darn sure of what the result is going to be, he is still in some doubt. We have found it of paramount importance that in order to progress we must recognize our ignorance and leave room for doubt. Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty -some most unsure, some nearly sure, but none absolutely certain.

 

This is why religion is not a valid hypothesis for the proliferation of life on Earth or any other planet. It relies on faith rather than evidence and does not recognize ignorance or leave room for doubt. Religion is an "unbounded" concept, whereas scientific method creates "bounded" hypotheses. Bounded meaning that the rules of science apply. "God's will" and other supernatural forces cannot be invoked. Also, with scientific method, there is room for "update, change, modification" or even out-right "disregard" for any hypothesis that doesn't continue to hold up to testing.

 

I don't see an accurate choice in your poll for me to make. One cannot believe "in" evolution, but rather one can believe that evolution is the most plausible and probable answer to the proliferation of life on this planet.

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

"There is no evidence for evolution".

Huh?

 

You obviously quoted someone who is ignorant. They have one of Feynman's scientific traits and don't even realize it.

 

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Carbon 14-dating. How can anyone say it's baloney?

 

The ignorant and those that refuse to acknowledge scientific method (except where their computers, cars, and consumer goods are concerned) routinely spout the "flaws" of carbon dating. Usually in contexts that are wholey inappropriate for that type of dating. Scientists, as pointed out by Feynman, do not consider themselves as flawless and therefore publicly announce margins for error.

 

Those that wish to discredit dating methods are quick to jump on this as reason to point out the inaccuracy of, say, Carbon Dating. What they don't understand is the difference between "accuracy" and "precision." What the scientist who use dating methods are concerned with is "precision" (the preferred dating method for many sites these days is argon-argon).

 

For instance: when I was in the army it was considered "ACCURATE" if you could hit the target during rifle evaluations. If you could hit the target, you qualified with your rifle. It was, however, considered to be "PRECISE" if you could put all of your shots in a very tight group on a consistant basis.

 

In many situations, the accuracy of even Carbon dating is very good. It's precision is often within a 150-200 year margin of error. This is a minor MOE when looking at 30, 000 years. Precision can often be had by merely using additional dating methods, such as tree-ring dating or paleo-magnetic dating.

[Iodius]

Although Macro-evolution isn't a proved scientific fact, I do find it the most logical approach and I do believe it to be true. It doesn't contradict my faith and anyone who says it has "no evidence" has some pretty bias sources.

 

On the topic of Evolution and Creationism, go to http://www.christianforums.com and go to the Open Debate for Christians and Non-Christians. There is all you need there, it has been discussed so many damn times.

[Homuncul]

This is why religion is not a valid hypothesis for the proliferation of life on Earth or any other planet. It relies on faith rather than evidence and does not recognize ignorance or leave room for doubt. Religion is an "unbounded" concept, whereas scientific method creates "bounded" hypotheses. Bounded meaning that the rules of science apply. "God's will" and other supernatural forces cannot be invoked. Also, with scientific method, there is room for "update, change, modification" or even out-right "disregard" for any hypothesis that doesn't continue to hold up to testing.

 

Science is dealing with a lot more difficult things Bible will ever pretend to posess like probability. It discribes our world through the loop of possibility of some event and actual probability of it's existence. When this step in science was first made everything lost it's absoluteness, even abstractions. But that doesn't mean we can't consider something we find subjectively almost proven a really proven thing and furthermore we must do such an assumption. Our reality is so complicated that we can't see it as a full image. Something is always unsaid. But it is really something absurd to not consider anything proven till it is proven implicitly and can't be changed at any condition. WE HAVEN'T GOT ANYTHING NOW WE CAN CALL PROVEN (in a common old way that many accept and anything can be so "logically" perverted that nothing in this world would make any sense). The actual meaning of this word is lost through time by a lot of people. But many scientists still know what's the difference between "just proven logically" and the what's been proven logically with probability involved. At one time probability was more like a superstring theory for us now. But as you see it's worldwide accepted. True logic prevail.

 

Everything in our lives is subjective so "logically speaking" nothing really makes sense cause it's all VR. Do christians see how futile this assumption is and how much was actually not been taken in calculation to that. And how exponencially this data will grow with probability involved and how absurdly it would be then called proven (in a common way) to be NOT AT ALL SO. We are now so dumbed up that we can't even call our predictions true or false. (in a common way again)

 

David Deutsch in some of his works concerning epistemology pointed out that the growth of our future knowledge would depend on "imaginative logic" (supersting theory for example) as I call it for simplicity. So I pointed out for myself that even less counted proven theories (or hypothesis or whatever you falsly call it) than evolution should be taken as PROVEN

 

Someone here is still living in a classical world while it's been actually left behind completely more than 30 years ago. It took scientists to realize this 30 years, it'll take for common people - 100 years (probably), it may never happen to christians ever (due to their strong faith).

 

I didn't want to offend anyone but I sometimes grow aggressive and can't contriollllllllll myself. It's just an opinion after all (made on great amount of data taken in calculation)

[Dagobahn Eagle]

SkinWalker, you sound like my chem teacher. I like the insight:).

[Cosmos Jack]

EKK ! ! I'm afraid to get in this pool here. I might take a pisss and make a few people mad, but I guess I will test the water.

 

The theory of Evolution is like a latter with missing steps. Does the lack of a few steps keep it from being a latter? Are we incorrect to assume that it is what it is? All the animals that have ever existed will never be found. Possibly all the missing links to human evolution will not be found, however; there is enough steps in the latter to make it a latter. Religion if compared to a latter all you would have is two long boards with no connection. The back cover and the front cover and nothing to stand on in the middle. Will faith hold you up?

 

It took me only a few minutes when I was a child after being introduced to the idea of evolution to except it over creationism and religion all together. It just makes since. Some people fined it hard to except evolution on the grounds nobody wants to think they are nothing more than a relatively hairless talking monkey. I am comfortable with it myself and see that all live is related and dependent on each other in some way. One of my biggest peeves with religion especially Christianity is that it makes people think quote "GOD made the Earth and all it's creatures to benefit man." When I read that it makes me feel low like to the ground low. I want to go on a Christian smashing crusade of my own at times. All the problems that exist in this world, because of human arrogance encouraged by religion. I hate to quote a movie, but humans have turned into viruses. We don't benefit the world or any other living thing, but ourselves. We should be trying to make the world a better place for all life not just humanity.

 

I also fined it relatively agonizing to think how many people still cling to Christianity or any other religion for support in there daily lives. I have found where there is a hopelessly religious person you have a hopelessly week mind. A person that preys for every little thing to go their way. I want at times to put them out of MY MISERY. I have discovered threw my own trial and error nothing comes to you unless you make it come to you. I have accomplished nothing in life with the help of any god and nobody does. I have had a lot of set backs and disappointments. I have made it threw on my own and come out successful. Not because I believed in a god, but because I believed in myself. People don't give themselves enough credit for there accomplishments.

 

I know I come off as a relatively heartless rude person may I add unemotional as well, however; I will stop in the middle of the road to rescue a turtle. I got tested for few minutes the night before last, because I wouldn't kill a spider instead I cot it and let it loose outside. Why harm something unless it trying to harm me. A small house spider isn't going to kill anyone. I also don't believe in owning pets, because I don't believe in owning a living thing.

 

If it were up to the human species all life that would exist would be cows, horses, dogs, cats, fish, pigs, and chickens. Maybe a few others. Human ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand and utterly disgust me. Religion encourages these ideas. I don't totally agree with everything Scientific Pantheism is about but it supports a lot of how I feel and for all purposes is a good replacement for religion especially Christianity.

 

Religion is simple minds way of answering the tuff questions. Who am I, Where did I come from, and Where am I going. These are things you have to answer for yourself nobody else can answer them for you not even an omnipotent being.

 

Pardin my bad typing I worked all night, and I'm going to bed now...........

 

Here are some sites that make me laugh, make me cuss, and really pisss me the hell off.

1. http://www.jesus21.com/poppydixon/pillbox/fiction.html

2. http://www.jesus21.com/writers/belinda/dinosaurs.html

3. http://www.christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-where1.html

4.http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I also fined it relatively agonizing to think how many people still cling to Christianity or any other religion for support in there daily lives. I have found where there is a hopelessly religious person you have a hopelessly week mind. A person that preys for every little thing to go their way.

Prayer has been known to make you feel better. I pray sometimes, when I really feel down, and while I don't know if anyone's listening (while of course I want to believe, and have faith in, that someone does), it does make me feel better. It's sort of like carrying a four-leafed cloever or crossing your fingers.

 

Religion, imo, is okay as long as it doesn't override science.

 

I want at times to put them out of MY MISERY.

LOL !

 

Um.. why don't anyone who are against evolution post? LS1, where are you?

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Religion, imo, is okay as long as it doesn't override science.

Religion was born in a environment where science didn't exist. It's very purpose is to support, give answers, and set boundaries of how people act and think. The problem with the bible is it was written by a man for man. With no evidence or proof required other than the words with in. Science is also written by men. The difference here is do you take the word of a obviously delusional person or a educated person that devotes their time and effort in answering all the questions that there is to life. Are you a copout and take the easy excuse that god did everything or are you going to fined out why the wind blows and trees grow.

 

God doesn't make it rain or snow. God doesn't make earthquakes or tornados. Satan doesn't posses people and there are no such things as ghost. All this supernatural nonsense needs to go extinct and humanity needs to start focusing on what's real.

 

If Christianity had it's way all humanity would set around in a church every time they had a problem. With their thumb up their rear. Hoping god would save them. These people need to get the hell out of the way and let humanity evolve. They need stop dragging the world down. In some futile attempt to reassure their place in a nonexistent afterlife.

[Breton]

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/

 

Can't say these people aren't trying, but their arguments are so f-in weak it's scary. Unfortunatly, people who doesn't know better can be fooled by the direct and indirect lies and false arguments on this site. If a lie is repeated many enough times, it becomes a truth. So is it with this site, it has absolutly nothing to back up their arguments, their arguments are more full of holes that a Swiss cheese.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

A more accurate link would be:

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/creation.shtml

 

Creation Versus Evolution

 

If there is no support for the theory of evolution, why is no alternative taught? We can only think of two reasons:

 

The Bible’s creation account is not “politically acceptable.”

The authors, book publishers, and school boards do not have all the facts.

The simple reason is that the Bible has NO evidence, like you claim evolution has no evidence.

 

The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible.

Well, come out from under your rock then.

 

*Snickers* 132, verse 15. And behold, a bright light appeared, and there was the angel of Dagobahn Eagle. Instantly, the forummers were afraid. "Do not fear", said Dagobahn Eagle. "But let me communicate that it is written: 'That site is a disgrace to all of christianity'. "That is the word of God". And then the Angel disappeared in the Heavenly light:D

[lukeskywalker1]

Well, what can I say, Reverend? The Bible says so, but presents no evidence. Your Bible has been wrong countless times before. It thought the Earth was flat. It said that the universe revolved around the Earth. It said that the whole world flooded (which is physically impossible).

 

It says Cain chased Abel (or the other way around) into the labyrinth without giving any darned clue as to why the heck Cain and Abel, as the only two sentiment people on the planet, would build a darned labyrinth in the first place. Just to give some examples.

 

 

Your God can't lie? Well, he obviously has, if he's the one behind the Bible. "Everything revolves around the Earth..."

 

 

real, quick where did the bible say any of this?

never seen any of it, please, just say the verses, ill look em up.

 

It said that the whole world flooded (which is physically impossible).

 

Actually, FYI scientists said, that the earth was once covered in water. Ahhh, you have contradicted yourself. Didnt they say, during the Precambrian Time period, on the geological scale, that the earth was coverd with water, and eventually, dry land appeared, then amphibians went on the land and could live there, but laid eggs in water, when the eggs could be hatched on land, eventually dinosaurs evolved, and so on, and so on..........

 

 

-lukeskywalker1

[Dagobahn Eagle]

1. I've heard a good deal of times that the christians were the ones who thought Earth was the center of the universe, and that it was someplace in the bible. When Galileo stated otherwise, the church argued against him, didn't it?

 

2. The bible definetly said the Earth was flooded, but what I meant is that it said the Earth was flooded while humans were on it. As in, after humans had gotten to Earth and the ice caps had formed.

 

3. And some envious guy chased some other guy trough a labyrinth, I'm sure of it. Think it was because a sacrifice that God didn't accept or something..

 

Actually, FYI scientists said, that the earth was once covered in water. Ahhh, you have contradicted yourself. Didnt they say, during the Precambrian Time period, on the geological scale, that the earth was coverd with water, and eventually, dry land appeared, then amphibians went on the land and could live there, but laid eggs in water, when the eggs could be hatched on land, eventually dinosaurs evolved, and so on, and so on..........

Yes, but it also said that no humans or even land existed while the Earth was flooded. Totally different thing.

 

According to science, it's:

 

1. Earth was flooded.

 

2. Species started evolving and growing underwater and on water.

 

3. Land appeared.

 

4. Species started evolving onto land.

 

This is not remotely what it says in the Bible.

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

1. I've heard a good deal of times that the christians were the ones who thought Earth was the center of the universe, and that it was someplace in the bible. When Galileo stated otherwise, the church argued against him, didn't it?

Actuly they put him in prision and think excuminicated him. They didn't let him back into the church intell a few years ago lol. He didn't recieve the punishment others that thought like him did. They were burnt at the stake for saying the earth revolved around the sun.

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

2. The bible definetly said the Earth was flooded, but what I meant is that it said the Earth was flooded while humans were on it. As in, after humans had gotten to Earth and the ice caps had formed.

This time period that the earth was covered with mostly water was billions of years before life even evolved beyond microbs. If all the water was to melt it wouldn't be like the movie water world. There would still be landmasses above water. Not many, however; but no a total loss.

[lukeskywalker1]

The problem with the bible is it was written by a man for man. With no evidence or proof required other than the words with in.

 

over half of the New Testament is letters to people, that were never even intended to be in a book.

 

Um.. why don't anyone who are against evolution post? LS1, where are you?

 

cool, im wanted...LOL actually, ive only been checking my thread, i havnt even visited the senate, ive been using the user cp thing.

 

 

 

We should be trying to make the world a better place for all life not just humanity.

 

Wow, what an idea, too bad, since everyone tries to do that, they never have enough time to look at themselves, and improve themselves. Hey hers an idea, why dont we all do that, then maybe the world might just be a better place. LOL.

 

Evolution, while not 100% proven, is the best, and most widely recognized theory around of how life evolved.

 

maybe, but ive heard scientists are turning away from that now. Hey if Darwin denounced HIS OWN THEORY then, it cant be true. Now ill admit, i dont know how true that story is.

 

Actuly they put him in prision and think excuminicated him. They didn't let him back into the church intell a few years ago lol. He didn't recieve the punishment others that thought like him did. They were burnt at the stake for saying the earth revolved around the sun.

 

Ive never understood why any of that happend, when the bible says thou (i cant spell it LOL) shall not kill.

 

The only thing I can think of, was, they were not "born again" christians. Hey anyone can say they are a christian, and you can tell by there actions whether they are or not.

 

 

3. And some envious guy chased some other guy trough a labyrinth, I'm sure of it. Think it was because a sacrifice that God didn't accept or something..

 

maybe, i might have to look into that. wasnt that some greek myth though... with the monster thingy.... ahh, whatever.

 

 

 

They were burnt at the stake for saying the earth revolved around the sun.

 

I dont know of anywhere the bible says the sun revolved around the earth. I think that was just stuff people made up.

 

-lukeskywalker1

[lukeskywalker1]

yeah, i just read part of the bible, it says nothing about anything revolving around each other.

 

it says God made the bright light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. It also says they will be in the sky to give light to the earth. which is how it is right? i know the moon doesnt creat light, but it reflects light, so it is a light.

[Reborn Outcast]

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

We've got "a few" fossils from around the world, although I do not see how you can say "a few". We've got a fossil of early apes, late apes, and primates, and then humans. Basically, slowly evolving into people. Same with animals. Pretty good evidence to me. And we know they are fossils, that's been proven as well: When today's beings deteriorate, they leave behind the same stuff.

 

I'm assuming that you believe in Darwin's evolution by natural selection theory correct?

 

If so, he said that humans didn't come from apes. Just wanted to get that straight.

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Carbon 14-dating. How can anyone say it's baloney? It's been proven scientifically (do you have any idea of how many houndred times a theory must be tested before it can be as widely accepted as C14-dating?). Thing is, let's say I have a child tomorrow (ooookay:)), and five years from now, the child sees me make a coin. Now, 120 years from then, the child's child brings the coin to a scientists who measures its age using the C14 method, and figures that it was made.. 120 years ago. That's how they proved it.

 

Well, I'll have to find a link on this but for now, yes Carbon 14 dating is accurate to about the timescale that some people interpret that the Bible says the Earth was made in

 

Also, I have heard of ways of the isotope decay being delayed under certain conditions. I'll have to look this up though.

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Different human skin colours: If evolution doesn't exist, why did the "descendants of Adam and Eve", or humans, change skin colours as they populated the world? Tell me that.

 

This is not necessarily evolution. It could be a mutation in which the trait was passed down from generation to generation. Not necessarily a trait that was effected by the environment. (If that was unclear, I'll try to explain it a little better)

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Do it with any item, and they will find the right age. It's based on the theory of half-life, which I will not elaborate on since you should be familiar with every aspect of evolution before you turn it down.

 

Like I said up a little.

 

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Well, what can I say, Reverend? The Bible says so, but presents no evidence. Your Bible has been wrong countless times before. It thought the Earth was flat. It said that the universe revolved around the Earth. It said that the whole world flooded (which is physically impossible).

 

First off:

 

Give me scripture in which the Bible says that the Earth is flat. I want the exact verse and book and chapter.

 

Same for the universe thing.

 

And how is it physically impossible for the entire Earth to be flooded? Most of the Earth (according to non-God believing scientists) was covered in a shallow sea. Hmmm... so you're saying that that water level couldn't rise?

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

It says Cain chased Abel (or the other way around) into the labyrinth without giving any darned clue as to why the heck Cain and Abel, as the only two sentiment people on the planet, would build a darned labyrinth in the first place. Just to give some examples.

 

Ok yea I'm gonna need to see the chapter verse and book in the Bible for the labyrinth thing to.

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

My good christians, why do you still cling so dearly to the Bible? It's allright to believe in religion, so do I. But why still cling to something when 99% of all recognized scientists recognize it as wrong? And when it cannot back its theories up with facts.

 

My good scientist, why do you still think that all Christians don't accept that evolution and the Bible go together? I believe that they can, who and where in the Bible does is say that God is NOT controlling evolution?

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Reverend, you are quick to say that "Carbon 4 dating is just a theory". But what about your Bible? Our theories at least give evidence; the Bible gives no evidence. You say that you cannot trust people who are around today in this modern world, and who give evidence for their theories and statements; yet, you expect us to blindly follow you in your worship of people long past, and who presented little or no evidence whatsoever of their beliefs. I encourage faith; but remember that faith is just that: Faith. I may have faith that I'll get a video game for my birthday, beause I told my parents I wanted one; yet, I know it's not 100% certain. If I see the presents and not a single one resemble something that could be a video game, I lose faith.

 

Well, the only thing I have to say for this is that your analogy is quite flawed. About the presents... Just because the box doesn't look like one, does that mean its 100% certain that it isn't a vidoe game? Could be in disguise by your parents.

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Your God can't lie? Well, he obviously has, if he's the one behind the Bible. "Everything revolves around the Earth...:D"

 

Once again, give me the exact verse, chapter and book in the Bible where God says this. If you can't, then, frankly, you're pulling it out of your ass.

 

Originally posted by Dagobahn Eagle

Did you ever see Galaxy Quest?

As a Star Trek-like show airs on Earth, a distant race hinges on a few survivors on the brink of destruction from a superior race. Then, as their destruction seems imminent, they come across (don't remember how) "documentaries on a war fought by Earthlings and their space vessels". Now, the same way as no author today writes creation/religious stories as fiction on the same line as Tolkien wrote Fantasy books on the same line as fiction.. no one in this distant world makes fictional TV shows or write fictional stories, of war.

 

Thus they create a replica of the USS Enterprise (or, I think they used some other non-star trek ship to avoid copyright lawsuits), and beam the "crew" of the ship to their planet to fight their invaders. The crew, of course, are only the actors of the TV show.

Just a side note.

 

This just got me very confused... where were you going with this?

 

 

 

 

I don't expect you to read all of this. Its just that this is the first time in a while I've been in a good debate and it would give me pleasure to see your responses.

[lukeskywalker1]

Um.. why don't anyone who are against evolution post? LS1, where are you?

 

Another thing, i think people are actually getting tired of these threads now. Look, i started talking in the other evolution vs creationism thread, which i believe was about 40-50 pages long right? Anyways, here is what ive noticed, just within these 2 threads. Half of us, have just simply gotten tired of this debate. I mostly posted in the revelation thread, and i think thats where a lot this ended. Lets c, I havnt even seen C'Jais, Tyrion, Reborn Outcast, Obi wan 13, or RptheHotrod post as much anymore, just bacause this is getting old... ive seen them a little, but it gets tiring saying the same thing 50 times. Now then, ive only just met you guys. Well then again, maybe I knew a couple of you. But what Ive learned through all these thread is this.

 

Are you honestly going to change your opinion? Im not, no matter what you throw at me. I doubt your going to change, but weve heard each others side, i guess thats all that needs to be said. or we could jsut keep having a worthless debate till everyone gets tired of this thread, and in a few months someone else will make 1.

 

BTW, i think this is why they made this section, because the people in the swamp got tired of our Christian and Evolution threads. LOL

 

-lukeskywalker1

 

 

EDIT: LOL Reborn posted while i was typing...lol

[lukeskywalker1]

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

I'm assuming that you believe in Darwin's evolution by natural selection theory correct?

 

If so, he said that humans didn't come from apes. Just wanted to get that straight.

 

 

 

Well, I'll have to find a link on this but for now, yes Carbon 14 dating is accurate to about the timescale that some people interpret that the Bible says the Earth was made in

 

Also, I have heard of ways of the isotope decay being delayed under certain conditions. I'll have to look this up though.

 

 

 

This is not necessarily evolution. It could be a mutation in which the trait was passed down from generation to generation. Not necessarily a trait that was effected by the environment. (If that was unclear, I'll try to explain it a little better)

 

 

 

Like I said up a little.

 

 

 

 

First off:

 

Give me scripture in which the Bible says that the Earth is flat. I want the exact verse and book and chapter.

 

Same for the universe thing.

 

And how is it physically impossible for the entire Earth to be flooded? Most of the Earth (according to non-God believing scientists) was covered in a shallow sea. Hmmm... so you're saying that that water level couldn't rise?

 

 

 

Ok yea I'm gonna need to see the chapter verse and book in the Bible for the labyrinth thing to.

 

 

 

My good scientist, why do you still think that all Christians don't accept that evolution and the Bible go together? I believe that they can, who and where in the Bible does is say that God is NOT controlling evolution?

 

 

 

Well, the only thing I have to say for this is that your analogy is quite flawed. About the presents... Just because the box doesn't look like one, does that mean its 100% certain that it isn't a vidoe game? Could be in disguise by your parents.

 

 

 

Once again, give me the exact verse, chapter and book in the Bible where God says this. If you can't, then, frankly, you're pulling it out of your ass.

 

 

 

This just got me very confused... where were you going with this?

 

 

 

 

I don't expect you to read all of this. Its just that this is the first time in a while I've been in a good debate and it would give me pleasure to see your responses.

 

 

pretty good job. lol.

[munik]

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

Give me scripture in which the Bible says that the Earth is flat. I want the exact verse and book and chapter.

First, we'll start with the flat earth

 

Daniel 4:10-11: From the top of Daniels dream tree you can see to the ends of the earth, only possible if it was flat.

 

Revelations 1:7: John says that when jesus returns in the clouds that every eye will see him. This too is only possible on a flat earth.

 

Isaiah 11:12: Isaiah talks about god gathering those of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Only a flat earth has corners.

 

Ezekial 7:2: Ezekial says that god told him the end is come upon the four corners of the land. Once again, only a flat earth has corners.

 

Luke 4:5: The devil took jesus atop a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You can't see everything in the world from a high place unless it was flat.

 

Now, verses that show everything rotates around the earth.

 

Joshua 10:13: The sun and the moon stood still for about a day. They could only stay still if they were revolving around the earth. If the earth stopped spinning, the sun would appear to stand still, but no one would notice because they would be too busy with being flung into space at a ludicrous speed.

 

Second Kings 20:11: Isaiah has god move the sun backwards ten degrees as proof for Hezekiah. This can only happen if the sun rotates around the earth. If the earth reversed it's rotation, then resumed it, we would have the same problem with inertia.

 

First Chronicles 16:30: David says that the earth is stable, that it will not move. If the earth does not move, then that means everything else must rotate around the earth.

 

Psalms 93:1: Says the world is stablished, and cannot be moved. So everything must rotate around it.

 

There are more verses that talk about the earths foundations, but I believe those to be more metaphorical then actual proof that people believed the earth was the center of the universe.

 

So, I provided these to help Dagobahn out a little, as Reborn seems quite skeptical. He didn't pull it out of his ass. Maybe the labrynth one, because I couldn't find anything about that, but the flat earth and center of the universe things are in the bible.

[lukeskywalker1]

Daniel 4:10-11: From the top of Daniels dream tree you can see to the ends of the earth, only possible if it was flat.

 

lol, before that, daniel says he had a vision.

 

Revelations 1:7: John says that when jesus returns in the clouds that every eye will see him. This too is only possible on a flat earth.

 

yeah, but are we forgetting, Christ the son of God. (supernatural powers) anyways, who knows what will happen in the future? thats what revelation is, a prophecy of the future.

 

Isaiah 11:12: Isaiah talks about god gathering those of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Only a flat earth has corners.

 

you have to realize all of the future prophecies in the bible are filled with figures. All i know is, this prophecy is like halfway complete. Remember, they saw a different time period, they didnt know exactly how to explain these things they saw.

 

Luke 4:5: The devil took jesus atop a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You can't see everything in the world from a high place unless it was flat.

 

Satan has supernatural powers, not to mention, only half of the world had kingdoms on it at that time. LOL

 

Joshua 10:13: The sun and the moon stood still for about a day. They could only stay still if they were revolving around the earth. If the earth stopped spinning, the sun would appear to stand still, but no one would notice because they would be too busy with being flung into space at a ludicrous speed.

 

How do we know the earth didnt stop moving, ive read somewhere that scientists say we have lost 1 day out of the year, or that there is a missing day...something like that. it was like 23 hours.

 

Second Kings 20:11: Isaiah has god move the sun backwards ten degrees as proof for Hezekiah. This can only happen if the sun rotates around the earth. If the earth reversed it's rotation, then resumed it, we would have the same problem with inertia.

 

the rest of that missing day. ill c if i can find a link sometime.

 

First Chronicles 16:30: David says that the earth is stable, that it will not move. If the earth does not move, then that means everything else must rotate around the earth.

 

meaning, no one is strong enough to mess with what God has made. Remember, sometimes things mean other things. Half of the others you listed are prophecies, or visions.... and the next one you quoted is the same as the one i just answered.

 

-lukeskywalker1

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

... maybe, but ive heard scientists are turning away from that now.

 

Where did you hear that? Just curious. I'm fairly tied into the scientific community through my readings of journals... if anything, I've seen a proliferation of new data that supports the various theories that surround evolution.

 

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Hey if Darwin denounced HIS OWN THEORY then, it cant be true. Now ill admit, i dont know how true that story is.

 

Darwin is not documented to have denounced or renounced any of his theories about natural selection. This repeated claim continues to resurface, however, it is without merit.

 

Most scientists do agree with Darwins basic concepts, though much of his theory has been modified or even disproved. But this is the nature of science.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

Another thing, i think people are actually getting tired of these threads now. Half of us, have just simply gotten tired of this debate. ...

... but weve heard each others side, i guess thats all that needs to be said.

 

And yet people still post out-right poppycock and unsupported statements that misrepresent facts.

 

For instance, the Darwin thing came up in the afore mentioned thread, yet you state it again.

 

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

Well, I'll have to find a link on this but for now, yes Carbon 14 dating is accurate to about the timescale that some people interpret that the Bible says the Earth was made in

 

Another issue that was discussed in the afore mentioned thread. Radiocarbon dating (one of MANY dating methods) is accurate in samples up to around 50, 000 years old without the use of a particle accelerator, which can increase accuracy out to 80, 000 years. I believe it was mentioned in the "afore mentioned thread" that the age of the Earth was limited to only around 10, 000 years. So your statement is a bit misleading.

 

Also, I have heard of ways of the isotope decay being delayed under certain conditions.

 

Perhaps, though you must understand that these variables are always taken into account. "Margins of Error" are established and precision is fine tuned so as to minimize these MOE by use of multiple dating methods. Chemical analysis of bones/teeth to examine flourine, uranium, and/or nitrogen content can be used. As can Thermoluminescence Dating, Electron Spin Dating, and more specific methods such as Potassium-Argon or Argon-Argon Dating.

 

"Creationists" frequently employ these weak arguments as well as others. Soon, we'll hear from someone about the "lack of fossils," "lack of transition fossils," "sudden catastrophic events on a global scale," "Pilt-Down Hoax is proof that science isn't serious," blah, blah, blah.

 

I'll gladly address each of these (and others) with ease.

 

What I would find interesting would be if "creationists" would spend as much time debunking a sciences such as chemistry, physics, biology and geology directly rather than just attacking those few aspects of these disciplines that threaten their belief systems.

 

We are so willing to trust scientists to make new discoveries that innovators can capitalize upon and manufacture consumer goods like cell phones and smaller, faster computers. But when scientists use the same method of discovery in a way that threatens the superstition of the religious establishment, some become fundamentalists.

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast This is not necessarily evolution. It could be a mutation in which the trait was passed down from generation to generation. Not necessarily a trait that was effected by the environment. (If that was unclear, I'll try to explain it a little better)

Evolution is mutation there guy. Evolution doesn't have to be a total adaptation to the environment random mutations happen as well. If they are beneficial or simply neutral neither bad or good. If this is so they are maintained if not beneficial well they don't get passed on as easily..

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 over half of the New Testament is letters to people, that were never even intended to be in a book.

Ok and what does this have to do with it being true? The bible is fake there is nothing to argue.

 

Arguing with a hopelessly religious person is like arguing with a schizophrenic. Trying to tell them their buddies Bod, Joe, and Jesus setting in the corner don't really exist. They also told them to kill their dad. A lot of the fanatical religious practices of the past few hundred year like witch burnings and crap have been contributed to a narcotic producing bacteria in the grain they were eating. They were hallucinating. I wouldn't doubt the guy who wrote the bible was freaking high, schizophrenic, or maybe just plain board.

 

Go wright your own bible for me. Than go tell the world that god wrote it threw you and see what they do with you. I will be handing you 2 orange juices and a sandwich for your midnight snack while you stay the lovely mental hospital I work at.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 How do we know the earth didnt stop moving, ive read somewhere that scientists say we have lost 1 day out of the year, or that there is a missing day...something like that. it was like 23 hours.

Hmm you are talking about how we get leap year lol. I thought everyone knew and understood that. It is impossible for the earth to stop revolving around the sun. Not that it can't be moved of course at which we would all be in for a really bad day. We get leap year from the simple fact that our calendar that we have inherited from our ancestors is slightly inaccurate. This is corrected by adding a extra day every 4 year on February 29th.

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Wow, what an idea, too bad, since everyone tries to do that, they never have enough time to look at themselves, and improve themselves. Hey hers an idea, why dont we all do that, then maybe the world might just be a better place. LOL.

People will better themselves by bettering and understanding the world we live in. Not by taking advantage of it and thinking the hole world was put here for us. Christianity is obsolete. It's purpose has gone it's time for a change. There is one thing I regret about my life and that is I won't live to see the day when there are no Christians or believing in a deity of any kind. When it is treated as false as Roman mythology is now. Religion is simply primitive.

 

I'm sorry some people need to think that their life has some big purpose in some grand scheme. I'm sorry some people have to believe that they are special more so than all other life. Created in the image of god is it? I'm sorry some people have to think there is something after life to look forward to. Even more so I'm sorry some people have to believe that there is some kind of a god watching over them that is always with them.

[Reborn Outcast]

Originally posted by Cosmos Jack

Evolution is mutation there guy. Evolution doesn't have to be a total adaptation to the environment random mutations happen as well. If they are beneficial or simply neutral neither bad or good. If this is so they are maintained if not beneficial well they don't get passed on as easily..

 

Are you a believer of the Darwin theory? If not, what do you believe? (I have to clarify this before I can answer your post)

 

Originally posted by munik

Daniel 4:10-11: From the top of Daniels dream tree you can see to the ends of the earth, only possible if it was flat.

 

Ok here we go. Take this verse into context. He's having a vision. Do visions always go with what we can see and do in real life? No.

 

(And by the way, it's King Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, not Daniel's.)

 

Originally posted by munik

Revelations 1:7: John says that when jesus returns in the clouds that every eye will see him. This too is only possible on a flat earth.

 

Do I daresay that people could have visions of Him? He is God, is he not? He could appear in multiple places at once.

 

Originally posted by munik

Isaiah 11:12: Isaiah talks about god gathering those of Judah from the four corners of the earth. Only a flat earth has corners.

 

"The four corners of the earth" is an expression that is still used today to express something like "all over the earth."

 

Originally posted by munik

Ezekial 7:2: Ezekial says that god told him the end is come upon the four corners of the land. Once again, only a flat earth has corners.

 

See above.

 

Originally posted by munik

Luke 4:5: The devil took jesus atop a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world. You can't see everything in the world from a high place unless it was flat.

 

Take a look at who is in that verse. First, we have Jesus, who is God and is allmighty. Couldn't he see everything? And then we have the devil, who is very powerful, be nowhere near as God. Be he still has power. Also, the high place was just for effect to try to get Jesus to forsake his Father and Heaven.

 

And like luke said, even science has proven that there were kingdoms only in Europe and Asia at that time.

 

Originally posted by munik

Joshua 10:13: The sun and the moon stood still for about a day. They could only stay still if they were revolving around the earth. If the earth stopped spinning, the sun would appear to stand still, but no one would notice because they would be too busy with being flung into space at a ludicrous speed.

 

Once again, look at the context. In verse 14 it says, "There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a man."

 

God is allpowerful. And it says that he did it. So, if he's allpowerful, he could stop the Earth and Sun. Thus does NOT mean that they thought that the earth was the center of the universe. In fact, I don't really see where it implies it.

 

Originally posted by munik

Second Kings 20:11: Isaiah has god move the sun backwards ten degrees as proof for Hezekiah. This can only happen if the sun rotates around the earth. If the earth reversed it's rotation, then resumed it, we would have the same problem with inertia.

 

Once again, this is God. He is allpowerful... doesn't that mean that he controls how everything works and he can alter them?

 

Originally posted by munik

First Chronicles 16:30: David says that the earth is stable, that it will not move. If the earth does not move, then that means everything else must rotate around the earth.

 

Are you sure that you're interpreting this correctly?

 

Originally posted by munik

Psalms 93:1: Says the world is stablished, and cannot be moved. So everything must rotate around it.

 

Once again, are you sure that you're interpreting "established" correctly?

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

Are you a believer of the Darwin theory? If not, what do you believe? (I have to clarify this before I can answer your post)

I thought it was pretty self explanatory that I was. I really don't see what you can answer to it. I didn't state an opinion with what I said about evolution.

 

The problem with evolution is nobody wants to be the one to hang religion so it is kept as a theory. If you set religion and evolution up as a court case with an impartial jury. Religion would be convicted as being false and evolution true. All the evidence christians bring up or try to use is from the bible or something else manipulated to support the twisted little book.

 

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

Ok here we go. Take this verse into context. He's having a vision. Do visions always go with what we can see and do in real life? No.

 

(And by the way, it's King Nebuchadnezzar's Dream, not Daniel's.)

So visions are real if there in the bible? Personally I would say get off the crack. How much of the Bible is dependent on the proof by visions?

Originally posted by Reborn Outcast

"The four corners of the earth" is an expression that is still used today to express something like "all over the earth."

Yes and the expression is a draw back from when people actually thought the Earth was flat.

 

I don't want to answer anymore of your replies to "MUNIK". I think he did a very good job. I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of listing all the references he did. It's odd that you are battling with him, because he is reading the bible for what it says. Why are you trying to twist everything in response to what is stated and than ask "Are you sure that you're interpreting this correctly?" I mean read it for what it is it's not that hard. It's funny you even argue on how to interpret "established."

 

This all sounds like when you catch someone in a lie. Their story twists and changes trying to keep up with your questions. This discussion lol is not any different. Religion has been caught in a lie and it's trying to wiggle it's way out.

 

Religion is simply the greatest lie ever told...