Why I left Duelers, why Lee Oattes is trying to hide what I say, & Cool Mods for JK2

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by Prime

You might not consider it commentary, but they might. I don't see how it is crying though.

Crying is sarcasm for whining, which is what they are doing. All they are doing is leaving negative &/or derogatory commentary as opposed to saying something useful. They may as well just be saying "you suck". While technically you are saying something, in all reality, you're not.

Originally posted by Prime

I am not all that familiar with this mod, so I'm not sure what it really changes. I know that for myself, and I suspect for most others, JA is definitely what we are playing right now. JO mods just don't seem to be in too much demand these days. If they are, it is only because they are usable in JA (like maps and such).

Well I still prefer playing JK2 myself because the damage settings for single saber are absolutely ridiculous in JK3. So far I have been on 1 linux NF server that had decent settings & was reasonable damage settings-wise with the single saber, however, all the others I have played are incredibly dissapointing.

 

Anyways, this is a collection of the best mods around. I took the best skins & models, did tons of bug fixes, added more sounds, gave them more bot support, decreased the file size by 2/3s, etc; etc. Then there are the standard & non-standard hilts packs, the hilts standards are things like all the hilt blades are in the same position, all the hilts are at least decent looking (no tie-dye hilt crap), etc; etc. Should be hot stuff, we'll see.

Originally posted by Prime

If this was the expressed arangement, fine. All I am saying is that this is not the typical business arrangement, either between employer and employee, or partners.

You'd be surprised.

 

Morally, you shouldn't use someone elses work against their will. Legally, I own copyright on my work & my own copyright on my modified version of some of the third party authors work as well (they are that pleased with the work I do). So, legally & morally this is a hands down case - case closed.

Originally posted by Prime

Any company that uses volunteers?

First off, everyones a volunteer, including Lee. Secondly, legal tender is not the only form of payment, in this case it's not legal tender.

Originally posted by Prime

OK, I need to get this straight in my head. The code/website that is in question, was this created for the partnership and project, or did you bring that with you into the project, and it was only used by the project? If it was created for the project, then the copyright belongs to the project, which sadly you are no longer a part of.

I made all graphics design work such as the loading screen & website, I did the advertising, I set up the forums, I did the hilts pack, etc; etc. Lee was the coder.

 

Again, I own copyright on anything I made & I even own my own copyright on some of the modified versions of the third party authors work as well, which in Duelers case would be the hilts pack.

 

Even if I made something solely for the purpose of the project, without any signed legal contract giving Lee copyrights on my work, I own the work. You don't just work for a project, make something for a project & the owner of the project gets the work, that's not how the law works, I know, I went over this with a copyright attorney for a week.

Originally posted by Prime

Again, if you brought the code with you into the arrangement, fine. But if it was created for the project, it is owned by the project, and this example doesn't apply. It would be like saying that you are entitled to the company car when you leave the company. This is also ridiculous.

Um, no. You either have no idea how the law works or you are just not getting what it is I am telling you.

 

When you make something (in the United States), copyright is secured upon creation & these laws are applicable in most other countries. Whether or not you are apart of the project is not is totally regardless, there is no law that says if you work for a company or you are apart of a team, the owner of that team or company automatically gets copyright. Now if you signed a contract (which most companies do when highering employees), then it may or may not be different, but without some sort of signed contract or agreement, theres no way in hell the owner of the project is entitled to ownership. Not by a long shot.

Originally posted by Prime

But if it was created for the project, it does entitle him to ownership, because he owns the project. When you left the project, nothing that was owned by the project goes with you.

I made the website for the work I was doing & I made some custom stuff so it could be used for Duelers, so I would have made the site either way but that's regardless, even if I had made it for him, because I am the author, I am the one who is solely entitled to ownership - that is U.S. federal copyright law, which again, is applicable in most other countries. If he wanted copyright on my work for being apart of the project, he would have needed to have me sign an agreement of some kind, which would obviously would never have happened.

Originally posted by Prime

Just because some people want it is not enough, IMO.

Right, this is the main reason why I am trying to get a coders union of some kind started. Razorace already has one going sort of. I know it may sound corny but there are just some do's & don'ts when it comes to coding & it is important that the coding community is aware of them; Look at JA mod. After informing Chosen One on how damaging the older versions of JA mod can be, he decided to not include a variety of the older features that encourage cheating (like terminater) or admin abuse (back to the slap command), etc; etc.

Originally posted by Prime

...but by people who were wondering who the hell Lee Oattes is, why he is trying to hide what you say, and generally hoping to get a laugh out of some good flames.

Despite the arguement between Lee & I, and of course my personal feelings towards the man, I have to say that Duelers mod is still BY FAR the best client & server side mod available for JK2. It's too bad it's not downloadable at this time (JK2Files.com removed the files & he never uploaded his work again without mine). Unfortunately, the community are the ones who suffer from this type of behavior.

 

I do have plans on requesting permission for me to include Duelers in Cool Mods or just upload the mod all by itself without anyone elses work. I would be willing to pimp the thing off either way, I just can't allow someone to steal my work, I had to make an example out of this guy. Now that I think about it, I wish I would have sued JK2Files.com for not removing the files at first, that would have made a much better example but I was trying to salvage my job, but that's a different story.

Originally posted by MasterSidious

I think force mod 2.0 owns everything else. And Jedi Academy sucks, just for admin power plus really buggy. I know this is the shortest post in here but it would make my hands hurt typing THAT MUCH.

Ya, it was a good mod but again, Duelers is still the best by far; For online use anyways.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

1.) Marker, you got jipped. Yeah, you guys made a 'verbal' agreement, and at the end, Lee, deciding that he did not want you to tarnish the vision of his game, since he did indeed construct it, backed out of the deal. He went against his word, that you claim he gave you. Don't worry, I believe you. He did it... TOO BAD.

While I was pist at first, I was over it by the next day, so that's not really my beef. My beef is, I trusted the guy enough to leave my stuff up for 3 days so he had enough time to come up with his own site & instead he ripped me off. We may have not have seen eye to eye - that's one thing, but there still should have been some value of trust there or at least some ethics.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

2.) Hilt packs, sounds, installers, mean absolutely nothing when there is no substance to put them on. If I make the filling of the tasty pie, but you make the oh-so-easy to construct crust, are you suddenly a significant contributor to the project? Your name was acknowledged for the work you have done. He did the creme filling, you did the crust. No one cares that much about the crust, nor do we recognize it as the core of a mod. If people were that desperate for skins and hilts, they could have looked elsewhere. Thank you, however, for taking the time to remove that kind of hassle. I'll admit, it was hard work, and decent of you. Move on.

People ranted & raved about the hilts pack, now maybe it didn't have the same effect for you but it certainly did for most of the other Duelers users. Even if it wasn't though, if "no one cares" about it, then why all the hassle about removing it? Why not just remove it & throw the same hilt pack in there that comes with JediMod? He knew damn well what kind of a job I did & things just wouldn't be the same.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

3.) Thanks to a squabble over orange stance damage, which in the end, was so NOT-controversial, and HARDLY problematic to the 'balance' of your mod, Duelers is dead.

I don't agree. When I play with multiple blades I use only the 2 extra stances, not all 5, so that makes a big difference when playing like that.

 

As far as Duelers being dead, yes it is & that is truely sad because it is a great mod. Again, I do have intentions on getting Duelers back into circulation just because I think it is the proffessional thing to do, but we'll see what happens.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

I'm sorry that you didn't get every part of your Duelers turned into Nerf Wiffle Bat mod.

lol, make all the jokes about Action Outcast all you like (which if I do pursue, I will probably call Jedi Action), but the mod concept is based on Action Quake 2 & that mod was the best & still gets played to this very day.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Orange was definitely NOT the end all of weaponry.

The point was, if you are going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all. The thing was obviously messed up because not only was it different in every version earlier than 1.3, but it was also different in every other JediMod based mod. He messed it up, he should have fixed it. Considering it would take all of 5 minutes to fix & he declined to do so just proves he is not willing to be reasonable anymore, so I decided to leave & take my work with me.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Despite my obviously biased opinion about Duelers... I'll just come out and flat admit that I didn't like the mod. I don't like playing games with no risk.

I'm not sure what it is you are referring to by no risk, it improves dueling & you can win or lose - that's a risk. I'm sure I am not understanding what it is you are saying though, you seem like an intelligent individual, which is refreshing at times; Not saying anything about anyone here, just saying at times I do deal with morons or people who just refuse to pay attention to what it is that is being told to them yet for some odd reason continue to leave posts or email me.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

He went back on his word. It's done, you don't have power over work he sweated his life over. HE changed his mind, it hurts your feelings.... eh, too bad.

Whether I had rights to his work is regardless, I wouldn't use it against his will. It's just plain bad word of mouth, know what I mean? My feelings weren't really hurt, it's not like I cried over the thing FFS, all I am saying is I thought I knew the guy & I expected him to be a bit more honorable. Such is life.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

He has your work, he's using it in some ways even though you don't want him to... yeah, too bad again.

Actually to bad for anyone who hosts it. I may eventually just put a court order or something on Lee himself but I have my own reasons for doing things the way I am currently.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

You should have thought about what you were putting out there in the first place. It's obvious Lee was.

Ya, no doubt. Now I have a terms of use drawn up for anyone who uses the mods. It's nothing unreasonable, it basically states that anyone can use our work as long as they allow anyone else to use their work as well. I had to go through alot of hassle to make that happen.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

your little squabble over a saber stance not being tweaked so that it hit like a wiffle bat destroyed Duelers.

Um, I don't know where you get your info man, but that's not what killed Duelers. In a sense, yes if the damage settings were correct on Orange I would have stayed on the team but the reality of the matter is the guy wasn't a team player anymore & something else would have lead to the two of us splitting ways.

 

What killed Duelers was me leaving it. I made the website, I handled public relations (i.e. I maintained the various forums (meaning not just the Duelers forums) & talked with everyone in-game, etc; etc.) I did the advertising, I made the eye candy (graphic design work), etc; etc.

 

Lee's a damn fine coder - I can't take that away from the man, but he has no foresight nor consideration for public relation, meaning people are lazy in general; So that's one of the reasons why I make an installer, it's just easier & you don't have to deal with as many n00b questions. More than that, it just makes a better quality product in general. He doesn't care about any of that & more importantly, he doesn't care about someone who provided all of that to him & his project. It was a judgement call he had to make, owell.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Votes from a mass of people doesn't matter.

Well that's just a differance in opinion between the two of us. I think it's the best way to perfect anything.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Lee didn't want to code it, and you gave him trouble. Now everyone has slit throats. Duelers is dead

Just for the record, I gave him trouble for stealing my work - nothing more. I am a proffessional & even though I was totally screwed over, I still endorse & promote Duelers, as long as he isn't using my work (unless he follows the CM terms of use, which I know he won't).

 

You know, now that I really think about it, I don't want to include Duelers in Cool Mods just because if I did, that would mean i really should support it as well & that might lead up to needing to stay in contact with Lee, which I totally do not want to do. The last thing I want is to start up this nightmare again. I'd be willing to upload Duelers alone (with no other mods, just Duelers), endorse & promote it but that's as far as it will go. That's just what proffessionalism is to me.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

Don't tag on to a mod with a coder unless you're absolutely certain that the two of you are seeing eye to eye.

We did see eye to eye at first but things change after time. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS MAKE AN AGREEMENT when coming onto staff or highering staff.

Originally posted by Doctor Shaft

And second... get better diplomacy skills when dealing with arguments about the mod. It's obvious that one side pissed off the other. I think you know who started it.

You lost me a little on this one. It's obvious you know something (or at least think you do) that you are not saying but I am not exactly sure what it is. I am speculating that it is in regards to my misjudgement of the blue damage settings & the public posts I had made about that, however, I had made a public apology about that. You couldn't get Lee to make a private apology no matter how wrong he was & no matter how hard you tried, but I was willing to accept that as long as the teamwork remained. When that left, so did I.

 

IMO, I don't think this was anyone starting anything. There were a variety of times that Lee said things that I unknowingly took out of context & even more so vice versa. Then it was little things that were not out of context. It just snowballed from there.

[Luc Solar]

Originally posted by Prime

Well, don't confuse view counts with interest. The first time I popped in this thread was not because I was interested in the mod, but because I was wondering about what kind of rant this would be I suspect that many (most?) of those views were not by people who were wondering about the fate of this mod, but by people who were wondering who the hell Lee Oattes is, why he is trying to hide what you say, and generally hoping to get a laugh out of some good flames.

 

Right. The reason why I posted what I posted was because I felt (like a lot of others I presume) that there's suddenly a thread on the forum about "Why never-heard-of-him left duel-what(??) and why never-heard-of-him-either is trying to hide what never-heard-of-him sais & cool mods (???) for JK2"

 

It just seems like a "I don't like my friend bobby anymore because he is a stinking liar and stole my spiderman magazine and I want it back"-kind of thread. You know - like "who what where and why should I care and why is this posted here?"

 

But maybe that's just me and Rad and Inskipp and g//plaZma and Pyro.. however - seeing the "Valley" as dead as it is, there's hardly no reason to whine about a thread being un-interesting or whatever.

 

You guys go ahead and post. I won't complain anymore, shouldn't have done it in the first place but I guess I was drunk. I do that sometimes when I'm drunk.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Marker0077

Crying is sarcasm for whining, which is what they are doing. All they are doing is leaving negative &/or derogatory commentary as opposed to saying something useful. They may as well just be saying "you suck". While technically you are saying something, in all reality, you're not.

They could have been more polite, but the sentiment that they don't care about the mod is a valid one. It is one I happen to share, unfortunately. Not a knock against the mod, but I, like many others, are not interested in JO mods anymore.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Well I still prefer playing JK2 myself because the damage settings for single saber are absolutely ridiculous in JK3. So far I have been on 1 linux NF server that had decent settings & was reasonable damage settings-wise with the single saber, however, all the others I have played are incredibly dissapointing.

You are entitled to feel that way and stick with JO, but you will be a part of a ever-dwindling minority.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Anyways, this is a collection of the best mods around. I took the best skins & models, did tons of bug fixes, added more sounds, gave them more bot support, decreased the file size by 2/3s, etc; etc. Then there are the standard & non-standard hilts packs, the hilts standards are things like all the hilt blades are in the same position, all the hilts are at least decent looking (no tie-dye hilt crap), etc; etc. Should be hot stuff...

So basically you took stuff from elsewhere and tweeked it. I'm sure it is all nice stuff, but I doubt any mods that don't work with JA will be "hot stuff".

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Um, no. You either have no idea how the law works or you are just not getting what it is I am telling you.

Seeing as I work in the software industry, I do have some knowledge. Since I can see I am not getting what you are saying, continuing to go around in circles is pointless. I will end my comments on that subject here.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Now that I think about it, I wish I would have sued JK2Files.com for not removing the files at first

Is that really necessary? They'd just take it down right away, and no one would use the mod at all, and your work would go to waste. You win, I guess.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

While I was pist at first, I was over it by the next day

But it seems as you are not over it, as you want to use legal action.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

We may have not have seen eye to eye - that's one thing, but there still should have been some value of trust there or at least some ethics.

You cannot demand trust and ethics from others, and you cannot operate under that assumption.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

People ranted & raved about the hilts pack, now maybe it didn't have the same effect for you but it certainly did for most of the other Duelers users.

I'm sure they are all very pretty. But hilts and hilt packs are a dime a dozen these days. Once people have Obi-Wan's and Luke's, the rest are gravey. I doubt hilts would mean the success or failure of the mod.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Even if it wasn't though, if "no one cares" about it, then why all the hassle about removing it? Why not just remove it & throw the same hilt pack in there that comes with JediMod?

I suspect it was because he felt he owned them, and therefore saw no reason not to use them. If Duelers was good, I bet it would be just as successful with Jedimod hilts, or any hilts for that matter. If all people wanted out of the mod was hilts, they'd just go and download the hilts directly. People play mods for what the mod does, not because it has forums, hilts, or websites.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

make all the jokes about Action Outcast all you like (which if I do pursue, I will probably call Jedi Action), but the mod concept is based on Action Quake 2 & that mod was the best & still gets played to this very day.

Quake games have a much larger (as far as I know) player base than JO ever did. Certainly, the number of people playing JO these days has dropped dramatically. So a JO specific mod would have a tough time getting widespread use at this stage.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

The point was, if you are going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all.

Apparently the choice was don't do it at all

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

The thing was obviously messed up because not only was it different in every version earlier than 1.3, but it was also different in every other JediMod based mod. He messed it up, he should have fixed it. Considering it would take all of 5 minutes to fix & he declined to do so just proves he is not willing to be reasonable anymore, so I decided to leave & take my work with me.

Your demanding that he change something is just as stubborn as his not changing it.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Whether I had rights to his work is regardless, I wouldn't use it against his will. It's just plain bad word of mouth, know what I mean? My feelings weren't really hurt, it's not like I cried over the thing FFS, all I am saying is I thought I knew the guy & I expected him to be a bit more honorable. Such is life.Actually to bad for anyone who hosts it. I may eventually just put a court order or something on Lee himself but I have my own reasons for doing things the way I am currently.

This is all just getting creepy...

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

What killed Duelers was me leaving it. I made the website, I handled public relations (i.e. I maintained the various forums (meaning not just the Duelers forums) & talked with everyone in-game, etc; etc.) I did the advertising, I made the eye candy (graphic design work), etc; etc.

But all this stuff is frivelous extras. Forums, websites, advertising (advertising how? Posting on a bunch of forums?) and eye candy are all nice I guess, but they don't really decide the success or failure of a mod. If the mod was what people wanted, they would play it. If not, they won't. Just because it has forums or nice loading screens means very little. As for websites, the vast majority of the community gets their downloads from places like jediknight, pcgamemods, jk2files, and so on. That's all the advertising you need, really. personally, I don't think I have ever gone to a mod's or model's website. I go to one of the main sites, check the details and screenshots, and download. It might just be me, but I think you are overstating the contribution of these things to the success of the mod.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

It was a judgement call he had to make, owell.

And he made it

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by Luc Solar

It just seems like a "I don't like my friend bobby anymore because he is a stinking liar and stole my spiderman magazine and I want it back"-kind of thread.

Well if you had put a large amount of effort into something & had something like this happen to you, you may have a different point of view. There are other modders who didn't spend 1/4th the time I did on my work & totally knew where I was coming from & support me in what I am doing.

 

It is however a somewhat fair analogy in my opinion because this whole ordeal is a bit childish but I have to stand up for myself.

Originally posted by Luc Solar

But maybe that's just me and Rad and Inskipp and g//plaZma and Pyro.. however - seeing the "Valley" as dead as it is, there's hardly no reason to whine about a thread being un-interesting or whatever.

Inskipp is just pissed because he loves the mod & because of me it's no longer even downloadable; Regardless of anything that Lee may have done, he sends the built up negativity my way & doesn't say 1/4th of the same crap he gives to me to Lee. Well sorry dude but if Lee wasn't such a selfish prick, you (Inskipp) wouldn't have that problem. He didn't want to share his toys so who the hell are you (Inskipp) to get pissed at me for not allowing him to use mine. I'll still try & do the proffessional thing I get Duelers out there, however, you have no right to be pissed at me just because I fight for what is mine. Lee brought this on himself & everyone else.

 

I don't know what everyone else's deal is. My personal belief is if you go & post in a thread you don't even like just to leave negative or derogatory commentary, you're a whiner who whines because you enjoy whining. Now I'm not saying that just because you leave negative commentary you're a whiner, what I am saying is if you are doing so without contributing anything genuinely useful to the thread, you're a whiner who appearently whines for personal enjoyment. If you don't enjoy whining, than you wouldn't waste your time contributing to a thread you don't even care about in the first place. If it is truely as uninsteresting as they say it is, the thread will go away, if it comes back than appearently someone has some interest in it & it's rather adolescent to leave these kinds of posts just because you don't share the same amount of interest in the subject. We don't go ranting about in threads you like, so please show us the same amount of respect. It's common courtesy FFS.

Originally posted by Prime

They could have been more polite, but the sentiment that they don't care about the mod is a valid one. It is one I happen to share, unfortunately.

The paragraph above that is addressed to Luc Solar applies to this as well. If the thread is still around then appearently someone wants to know, you shouldn't come raining on our parade just because you don't share the same level of interest on the topic. Again, common courtesy.

Originally posted by Prime

Not a knock against the mod, but I, like many others, are not interested in JO mods anymore.

Well this is the JK2 section, not JK3. This is where this stuff goes.

Originally posted by Prime

You are entitled to feel that way and stick with JO, but you will be a part of a ever-dwindling minority.

I switch between JO & JA. The damage settings are just absolutely upsurd in JA & I don't understand how people who are so smart could be so stupid. JA has alot of other things to offer as well, so I am of course still interested but all the real die hard duelists will still play JO until a patch for JA comes out to fix this mess.

Originally posted by Prime

So basically you took stuff from elsewhere and tweeked it. I'm sure it is all nice stuff, but I doubt any mods that don't work with JA will be "hot stuff".

I am doing more than just tweaking it but from an outsiders point of view, ya that's a fair essesment of what I am doing.

 

Who said they don't work for JA? There is 1 version for JK2 & another for JK3.

Originally posted by Prime

Is that really necessary? They'd just take it down right away, and no one would use the mod at all, and your work would go to waste. You win, I guess.

You would think that none of that would be necessary, wouldn't you? That's what I thought but I was wrong in this instance.

Originally posted by Prime

But it seems as you are not over it, as you want to use legal action.

I had worked with the man for 5 months & I thought he was an honerable guy & was obviously wrong about it; So when I said "I was over it the next day", I was referring to it on a personal level - not proffessional.

 

You still need to stand up for yourself otherwise someone else might try & take advantage of you as well. I was hella nice about this whole thing & just got blown off time after time trying to salvage my job & then in the end got fired anyways over a petty dispute. Looking back on it now, I wish I hadn't been so nice.

Originally posted by Prime

You cannot demand trust and ethics from others, and you cannot operate under that assumption.

Well appearently we just have 2 different definitions of what common courtesy is. It would appear that this is my mistake in this instance.

Originally posted by Prime

I'm sure they are all very pretty. But hilts and hilt packs are a dime a dozen these days. Once people have Obi-Wan's and Luke's, the rest are gravey. I doubt hilts would mean the success or failure of the mod.

Have you even seen the hilts pack? Granted, yes it was icing on the cake but it was one hell of an icing job. There were tons of hilts you couldn't get anywhere else, a variety of sword hilts, some of which were reversable, the chainsaw hilt, etc; etc. There is no other hilt pack like mine. There are so many hilt packs that don't even have textures because whoever put it together did a half fast job or just didn't know what they were doing. Hilts aren't supposed to be grey & black all over, that's not some nifty design, it's a screw up. Anyways, to each their own I suppose.

Originally posted by Prime

I suspect it was because he felt he owned them, and therefore saw no reason not to use them. If Duelers was good, I bet it would be just as successful with Jedimod hilts, or any hilts for that matter. If all people wanted out of the mod was hilts, they'd just go and download the hilts directly. People play mods for what the mod does, not because it has forums, hilts, or websites.

Look, I never said the hilts would make or break the mod, all I said was the hilts are the best around & eye candy is a big thing, it makes a difference. Also, people don't want to download 50 hilts & put them all in there - you know? These hilts have all been "tweaked" out & work properly & look just as good as they did before or better.

 

As for the website, more eye candy but not that great of eye candy. It's decent. The forums though, that's the best way of communicating with your users & by far the best way to improve not only the mod, but anything & everything else from the hilts to the manual.

 

People go to someone for the whole package deal, if you put a good show together & they are happy with the service you provide, they'll refer their friends & other related organizations will do the same as well.

 

The forums, or hilts, or manual, or whatever alone may seem like nothing but they are each a drop in the bucket.

Originally posted by Prime

Quake games have a much larger (as far as I know) player base than JO ever did. Certainly, the number of people playing JO these days has dropped dramatically. So a JO specific mod would have a tough time getting widespread use at this stage.

Again, drop in the bucket.

Originally posted by Prime

Apparently the choice was don't do it at all

No it wasn't, he put out a new version of Duelers, although at this point, it is probably don't do it at all. I think he may get back into this once the JA source is out.

Originally posted by Prime

Your demanding that he change something is just as stubborn as his not changing it.

Not really. When we first started Duelers we were a team that actually worked together, now he was refusing to. It's not like this was the first time something like this came up, however, it was obviously the last.

 

If I am going to be apart of a team, I NEED to be apart of the team. I dealt with the cocky comments about what a "proffessional" he is & what an "amateur" I was (even though I've been modding games for 10 years), I dealt with majority of features that everyone voted on that we wanted (& some of which was a quick add) & got totally disregarded, etc; etc. This was a no brainer, he had it right in his own docs that the damage was supposed to be one thing & it wasnt, plus all other JediMod based mods & every other Duelers versions were at those settings, etc; etc. - he messed up & it was a quick fix & he refused to, I mean, where exactly do you think I should draw the line?

Originally posted by Prime

But all this stuff is frivelous extras. Forums, websites, advertising (advertising how? Posting on a bunch of forums?) and eye candy are all nice I guess, but they don't really decide the success or failure of a mod.

Forums are not the only form of advertising & I do stand corrected on that, I had planned on doing much more advertising when Full was released, for the most part I was concentrating on that. When CM is released, you'll see "advertising how" & whether or not I am right or wrong about how successfull I can make this or have made Duelers.

 

Who do you think maintained the forums & dealt with all the users, made the website, made the hosting account for the website, worked on full, etc; etc. It's obvious you don't know 1/4th of the stuff I had done but why would you, you don't even like the mod.

Originally posted by Prime

If the mod was what people wanted, they would play it. If not, they won't.

People aren't going to play what they don't know even know about. ForceMod II probably had the most advertising of any JK2 mod & Duelers had more servers than they did & again, we didn't do all that much advertising. That *should* tell you something because ForceMod II is not a crappy mod.

Originally posted by Prime

the community gets their downloads from places like jediknight, pcgamemods, jk2files, and so on. That's all the advertising you need, really

There's more to it than that but ya, the more advertising the better. those are some of the places I advertise when I do so, but those places aren't going to provide sound previews & all the promo screenies the new CM site does or news updates about the project, etc; etc. If you make a good enough product, people will check up on it from time to time & the best place to find out about it is on its web site.

Originally posted by Prime

It might just be me, but I think you are overstating the contribution of these things to the success of the mod.

Well hopefully we will soon find out.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Marker0077

I don't know what everyone else's deal is. My personal belief is if you go & post in a thread you don't even like just to leave negative or derogatory commentary, you're a whiner who whines because you enjoy whining.

Or they just like keeping the flames going. That certainly is common place. Just ignore them if you really want them to go away. From the looks of it, they already have.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

If it is truely as uninsteresting as they say it is, the thread will go away, if it comes back than appearently someone has some interest in it.

I assume you are refering to the mod here? Let's see...there are about 29 posts in this thread, and exactly zero posts are asking/stating interest in Duelers mod. The only reason this thread isn't going away is because most people are stating they have no interest in this whole Lee situation and you and I are "conversatin". This thread will die soon enough when I grow bored with it I'm just kidding, but I may be right nonetheless.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

it's rather adolescent to leave these kinds of posts just because you don't share the same amount of interest in the subject.

In case you haven't noticed, a good percentage of people around here are adolescents

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

If the thread is still around then appearently someone wants to know, you shouldn't come raining on our parade just because you don't share the same level of interest on the topic.

Frankly, I'm not sure why I am still around. For some reason "interested in the topic" doesn't really discribes why I'm here. I just like stating my opinions, I guess. Or I like seeing my post count go up

 

As for "our parade", I'm not sure who "our" is. You seem to be the only one here that is interested in Duelers mod. That is not ment as a shot, just an observation.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

I switch between JO & JA. The damage settings are just absolutely upsurd in JA & I don't understand how people who are so smart could be so stupid. JA has alot of other things to offer as well, so I am of course still interested but all the real die hard duelists will still play JO until a patch for JA comes out to fix this mess.

What do you not like about the damage settings? Is it to high or two low for you?

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Who said they don't work for JA? There is 1 version for JK2 & another for JK3.

I though you had said it. I don't recall if it is mentioned somewhere in the sea of posts, but just about everything I've seen says it is a JK2 mod. And since I am assuming there is some code in there somehere, and since the code for JA hasn't been released, I concluded that it wouldn't work in JA. Is this incorrect? I might not be, but everything is starting to blur together.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Well appearently we just have 2 different definitions of what common courtesy is.

I don't think so. I think our definitions are pretty close. I'm only pointing out that common courtesy is anything but common...

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Have you even seen the hilts pack?

Nope. Like I said, I've never heard of this mod. However, it is entirely possible I have seen hilts that you have since tweeked. Who knows?

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Also, people don't want to download 50 hilts & put them all in there - you know?

I'd say most do download individual hilts, or at least small groups of them. I know many people who don't download large files, due to bandwidth reasons. Personally, I perfer getting them one at a time, since I hate having to download a pack to get the one I want. Rarely, if ever, do I want them all.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

These hilts have all been "tweaked" out & work properly & look just as good as they did before or better.

I hope they are better, otherwise, what's the point?

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

he messed up & it was a quick fix & he refused to, I mean, where exactly do you think I should draw the line?

It doesn't matter where I would draw the line. You gotta do what you gotta do. Now you have to live with the consequences.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

Forums are not the only form of advertising & I do stand corrected on that, I had planned on doing much more advertising when Full was released, for the most part I was concentrating on that. When CM is released, you'll see "advertising how" & whether or not I am right or wrong about how successfull I can make this or have made Duelers.

In case there was a misunderstanding, which i don't know if there was or not, my question about "advertising how" was not sarcastic. I wasn't sure what you were refering to.

 

But you're right. You'll see if it matters soon enough.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

It's obvious you don't know 1/4th of the stuff I had done but why would you, you don't even like the mod.

Not true. I don't like or dislike the mod. I know next to nothing about it, apart from it having lots of hilts. So really, I have nothing to base an opinion on. I'm sure you have done all sorts of wonderful things and worked very hard.

[Marker0077]

Originally posted by Prime

I assume you are refering to the mod here? Let's see...there are about 29 posts in this thread, and exactly zero posts are asking/stating interest in Duelers mod.

You haven't read this thread. Inskipp has an interest in Duelers & the 2 of us said some things about the whole BS that happened between Lee & I, Lan Judd has an interest in these topics as well as an interest in CM for JKS (my project), mastern64 didn't want to read through all these book of posts but did say that the project sounds interesting & a few other people left some other commentary as well. Again, if no one cares about this thread then they will stop posting in it (which I am hoping is sometime soon because this is a dead issue, although I do appreciate any support) but for now, it appears to be of some peoples interest.

Originally posted by Prime

The only reason this thread isn't going away is because most people are stating they have no interest in this whole Lee situation and you and I are "conversatin".

As stated up above, it's not just you & me. I know that there are some book of posts in here but what you are saying isn't entirely correct.

Originally posted by Prime

As for "our parade", I'm not sure who "our" is. You seem to be the only one here that is interested in Duelers mod. That is not ment as a shot, just an observation.

Again, back to my past 2 answers...

Originally posted by Prime

What do you not like about the damage settings? Is it to high or two low for you?

Some are too high & some are too low. The standard red swing being maxed out at 30 hps is absolutely ridiculous & it would also appear that alot of the damage taken is randomized because I have done full on red specials on people & have it do only 15 damage, which also is upsurd. With JK2, blue did 25 damage horizontally & 30 damage vertically, yellow did 30 damage both directions, & red did 50 damage horizontally & I don't recall the exact vertical damage but it was hella damaging. This is just a change for the worse as far as actual damage settings go. I realize that now people spawn with 100 hps & not 100/25 but still, red should be at AT LEAST 40 hps damage & obviously having someone take a saber & put it through your head, have it come out your ass & then call it 15 damage is a bit of an error as well.

 

It just needs more work. It will always need more work but in this case, it really needs more work ASAP.

Originally posted by Prime

I though you had said it. I don't recall if it is mentioned somewhere in the sea of posts, but just about everything I've seen says it is a JK2 mod. And since I am assuming there is some code in there somehere, and since the code for JA hasn't been released, I concluded that it wouldn't work in JA. Is this incorrect? I might not be, but everything is starting to blur together.

Lee's a coder, not me. Even if I was, I wouldn't have time to code with all the stuff I currently have to do on the table.

 

When this thread started there was no JK3 so that's why JK3 isn't in the name but I never stated I wasn't doing this for JK3 as well.

Originally posted by Prime

Nope. Like I said, I've never heard of this mod. However, it is entirely possible I have seen hilts that you have since tweeked. Who knows?

I've gone back & forth between so many people between emails, posts & PMs that i can't keep track anymore but the fact you had never seen my hilts pack showed. Wait until CM is out, you'll see what I mean.

Originally posted by Prime

I'd say most do download individual hilts, or at least small groups of them. I know many people who don't download large files, due to bandwidth reasons. Personally, I perfer getting them one at a time, since I hate having to download a pack to get the one I want. Rarely, if ever, do I want them all.

Well this will feature an actual installer so even if you do have a previous version of any of these hilts, it can move them for you (you are given an option).

 

As for bandwidth, all the hilts, sound, weapon & any other mods are probably going to only be about 10 megs, so that's not much of a download, especially considering what you are getting in it. Skins Pack A is a heftier download (around 50 MB) but well worth it.

 

As for rarely ever wanting them all, this will probably be a first for you. I can't wait to be done with the project so I can let it speak for itself.

Originally posted by Prime

Not true. I don't like or dislike the mod. I know next to nothing about it, apart from it having lots of hilts. So really, I have nothing to base an opinion on. I'm sure you have done all sorts of wonderful things and worked very hard.

Well Duelers has a variety of features like the non-interferance code. What that does is it makes it so that when you accept a private duel, you do not see, anyone else in the room except your opponent. You also walk through anyone else in the room just like they weren't there. It's a huge FPS saver. lee was also originally the one to come up with the IP ban fix, there is a macro prevention code in there (not like xmod or whatever it was called, this one actually does what it is supposed to do & prevents nothing else), it is also the only mod with a code that supports proper reversed sabers (which I am thinking & hoping is built into JK3), it is also a jedimod based mod so it has all those jedimod features for the most part, etc; etc. Really excellent mod.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Marker0077

Some are too high & some are too low. The standard red swing being maxed out at 30 hps is absolutely ridiculous & it would also appear that alot of the damage taken is randomized because I have done full on red specials on people & have it do only 15 damage, which also is upsurd. With JK2, blue did 25 damage horizontally & 30 damage vertically, yellow did 30 damage both directions, & red did 50 damage horizontally & I don't recall the exact vertical damage but it was hella damaging. This is just a change for the worse as far as actual damage settings go. It just needs more work.

Keep in mind that the damage in JA is location specific, unlike JO. Where you hit your opponant makes a big difference in how much damage is done. The damage model can be turned back to the JO model with a cvar.

 

Originally posted by Marker0077

this is a dead issue.

Indeed it is. Good luck with your mod