DK_Viceroy Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 maybe some civ's ships have to return to airbase like Tie fighters and interceptor's and Trade federation's fighters as well because of their fuel source but they could be made ultra fast and maoeverable but cheaper while ship's like x-wing would EVENTUALLY have to return but woudln't be as manoevarable. I completly agree with transports landing but they should be given a token weapon maybe an Anti-Persoanl weapon that kills troopers quick and maybe have fully loaded transports going slow until they land and offload their cargo and then they speed up a bit. Really though i think we should try and decide wheather this is gonna have space battles before we get too much into details about air units so we can at least agree more on their roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 1. Here's what I think: Anti-Air should be an ability that a few units in the game have. These units will not necessarily be like the Anti-Air Mobiles of SWGB1, but will be incorporated into Mechs who can shoot Ground units as well. Most civs will need to rely on Air units themselves to counter enemy Air (just like in the movies), but those civs with weak Air have Anti-Air abled units on the ground to balance things out. Here's a few of my ideas for weak air civs: Galactic Empire: The AT-AT, as Sith mentioned, is the only Imperial Mech that should have AA. However, the Empire has the best of the weak Air civs, so the fact that this unit isn't available until late won't effect them too badly. TIE Fighters will be able to be pumped out quickly and cheaply, and will cost less population than strong Air civ's Air units. :atat:Trade Federation: The AAT seems quite a decent AA unit - not only did it shoot down an N-1 coming out of the Naboo hangar (which proves it has the aiming capabilities) but the two guns on either side could be angled up to be very successful Anti-Air guns. Droid Starfighters can also be mass produced like TIE Fighters, and will be one of the fastest Air units in the game, so the Trade Federation seems okay when it comes to Air defence. Confederacy: The Homing Spider Droid - not only is it tall, but that laser dish on the top of it's head can swivel about in any direction - and it is "homing"... but more importantly the Hailfire Droid, which is the best Anti-Air unit in the game. Although it did shoot an AT-TE or two in the movies, I think it should remain purely Anti-Air - not only is it unique in that regard but it is just good at it. This evens out because the Geonosian Fighters are rubbish. Gungans: Though definitely not as rubbish as the Gungans on Aiwhas. I'm tempted to do away with Gungan air altogether, it just seems wierd, and it won't weaken them too badly considering how strong they are at Sea (so water maps won't be bad for them). However, they need some sort of Anti-Air unit, and I've mentioned before that I think the best thing for them would be a Catapult-like device that hurls a boomah up in the air where it explodes in a shower of plasma - much like a flak cannon. Because it has an area effect, I think this is adequate protection for the Gungans. But having written that out, I can't help feeling Troopers should be allowed to shoot Air. They won't be good at it, but in large numbers they may be able to overcome it. I offer this instead of making all mechs shoot air. Yes Sith, it will make Air more vulnerable, but that is what I want to do, to counteract the necessary improvements to attack and HP the Air units should get. 2. It makes for bad gameplay, because we don't have much control over our Air units, and it doesn't effect realism, because in Star Wars (not the real world, Windu) ships don't have to fly back to the hangar in the middle of a battle to refuel. It was fine for C7C Generals, but is not very Star Warsy at all. 4. Transports are not used in the movies to drop enemy units into the middle of an enemy controlled area. Therefore, it should not be encouraged in the game. Transports enable your units to be moved quickly, or to bypass obstacles like cliffs or rivers. You will need to actually think about the best place to land, rather than doing a pummel drop on a command centre. It improves gameplay by discouraging unrealistic tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithmaster_821 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 1. Good ideas for AA (kinda skeptical on the Homing Spider Droid). The Gungan idea sounds strangely familiar:p 2. Nothing new to add but my usual Gameplay>Realism 4. Unless it takes like 5 minutes to land a transport, I dont see how this disuades pummel drops. The idea of the pummel drop is that you land where there is no army and are very few defensive structures, but tons of juicy economic targets. And what it does do is severely weakens the attacker's hand on water and space maps, especially seeing that, atleast in this game, the attackers hand was in a perilously weak position as is. This idea doesn't add more thought in the dropoff point of raiders or amries, but it does impede on people trying to move their armies from here to there without much trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Viceroy - we decided the question of space battles quite a while ago and didnt go for it Vostok - not sure about the Homing Spider Droid. The way i see it, the Hailfire droid should be the main Confed SA weapons platform, and should have a good anti-mech attack as well. With the hanger idea, these are the benefits- 1. Increaed Realism - all fighters in the movies and EU have to refuel, and take off from hangers 2. Better Gameplay - forces the player to protect the hanger - makes hanger placement a strategic decision - allows all aircraft to be stronger becuase of limitations in range and duration in the air without unbalancing them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 Yeah, I was thinking about the Homing Spider Droid today, and decided it's shot was too slow to get air. So it's just the Hailfire Droid. And I think I'll keep the Hailfire as a pure Anti-Air - giving it mech-destroying capabilties like the movie makes the Homing Spider Droid redundant, since it is really supposed to be the Confederacy's main anti-mech unit. People need a reason to take both the Homing Spider Droid and the Hailfire Droid to war, and if the Hailfire does both jobs the Homing Spider Droid won't turn up very often. Sith - you didn't comment on my decision to allow Troopers to shoot Air but not Mechs (except for those Mechs with AA capability). You probably are still against it, but let me reiterate that if we want to increase Air's attack and armour (to bring it more in-line with the movies) then we have to allow more units to be able to shoot them, even if they aren't great at doing so. Windu - the hangar idea is not very Star Warsy. Especially if you want your precious gunship plans to become a reality. I don't see how a realistic gunship could even be attempted with the hangar idea. Star Wars Aircraft need to be totally free - they hover, they dogfight, they do lots of things without having to worry about fuel. It's silly to add this in when it just goes against the movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaruGlory89 Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 I LIKE your dodge idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Windu-I don't think you realise how small those maps are gonna be. If small fighters like X-Wings, A-Wings, B-Wings and Y-Wings can have enough fuel to jump to hyperspace to the Death Star and then engaging the enemy without the need to refuel, I think they are capable to fly around on such a small map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 21, 2003 Author Share Posted August 21, 2003 Good example, Luke's Dad. Perhaps Windu believes that Lando's line should have been: "Don't worry, my friend's down there. He put enough fuel in the Falcon... or this'll be the shortest offensive of all time!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Well with the hanger idea ive chaged my mind about that anyway...ive come up with a new and better idea! The new one goes as such- 1. Aircraft are built at Hanger and use repuslorlifts when stopped over your base 2. They do not stay at the Hanger 3. They are limited by range 4. Fuel Depots (probably the resource center) placed at various points of the map would increase the range of your aircraft This allows for better gameplay, in that aircraft can be more powerful without unbalancing, it offers more startegic options, and doesnt confine your aircraft to base. With range, on the mini-map you would see a coloured circle indicating the range of your aircraft. Overall, the way i see it, this is the best compramise between gameplay and realism. PS: i just added the B-wing to the Rebel Air Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 22, 2003 Share Posted August 22, 2003 Still windu whay should they be limited by range?This doesn't make any sense. People will see that in the movie, small fighters can go very far distances without refueling(or letting the rebel fighters hypering ahead of the cruisers was a huge mistake). Lando: Everybody ready for the attack? Wedge: Uh, no. I'm kinda out of fuel here...and so is my whole sqaudron...hmmm...were kinda stranded here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 Yeah Windu, I don't see how limited range is realistic at all. Luke managed to go from Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin without the need for refuelling. If your going to add in the need for refuelling you might as well add in bathroom breaks for Troopers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Originally posted by Admiral Vostok Yeah Windu, I don't see how limited range is realistic at all. Luke managed to go from Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin without the need for refuelling. If your going to add in the need for refuelling you might as well add in bathroom breaks for Troopers! LOL! That would be so funny! Imagine all the guys on Hoth or Endor taking batroom breaks! LoL!!!!!!!!! I'm so tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Range is important because, as i said, it limits the power of Air, and hence each individual aircraft can be more powerful. It also allows for more strategy, especially for the air-powerful civs. I would also like to point out that EU supports this (and isnt contradicted by the movies...EEU right?) and makes the game more realistic by, for example, giving the X-wing a greater radius of action than the Droid Starfighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 23, 2003 Author Share Posted August 23, 2003 While it isn't strictly contradicted by the movies, the need for fuel just doesn't feel right in Star Wars. I gave the example of Luke flying from Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin before. Also the Millennium Falcon (and sure, fuel would be less of an issue for it) manages to fly from the Hoth System to the Anoat System to the Bespin System without entering Hyperspace - a voyage which took many months - and when they got to Bespin Han didn't even mention fuel to Lando, he only said he needed repairs. Scale the need for fuel down to an X-Wing and fuel simply becomes a non-issue in a single battle. In fact the only time I can think of fuel being important was in The Phantom Menace, when Qui-Gon says the Royal Starship needs "somewhere to refuel and repair". However in this case he was referring to the needs of the hyperdrive, which Ric Olie had just reported was leaking. So as the hyperdrive is not used in games, this is irrelevant. Think of it this way, Windu: quite often I make an attack with Air, then once I've achieved an objective or decided to abort I return to base where my workers repair my damaged Aircraft. Realistically this is when any refuelling would take place, but apart from that fuel is just a non-issue. Making it an important part of aerial combat is too big a weakness to be compensated by enhanced stats, and as such I am firmly against it. One last semi-related thing: Sith, I'm interested in how you feel about my allowing Troopers to shoot air but not Mechs (except for Mechs with AA capabilities). I think this makes the Air units just weak enough to warrant the kind of improved stats I'm talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Vostok - precisely how did you figure that this voyage took 'many months'? Besides, with the whole fuel issue, im using the 'stats' from the X-wing series of books. Also, as you said, refuelling was an issue in TPM, and just before the X-wings take off in ANH, they are being fueled. Apart from realism, fueling makes for altered gameplay and, as i said, allows aircraft to be more powerful withough unbalancing the game. An example would really be that, if you dont keep an eye on Rebel ground stations, the Rebel Air Force will pound you into the ground with their X-wings, A-wings, Y-wings, B-wings and T-47's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTE_Kimba Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Just thought i'd chuck in my 5 cents worth here.... Its been a fascinating read btw.... I agree that air is underplayed & underutilsed. I think this is because as well all know that all you need is a half dozen adv anti air turrets & they are gonners.... So I think all the fighters & bommers should have more points so as they are not so easily destroyed. Also, from memory 10 naboo maxed out bommers can take out an anti air turret in 1 or 2 hits. So even with 6 turrets you can only take out 2 or 3 if you are lucky before they are all killed. Perhaps making anti air turrets more expensive to build would be good. There is enough in the game that takes out air as it is - no more please & I think the dodge idea is great & realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 23, 2003 Share Posted August 23, 2003 Hey Kimba it's nice to have you around other threads! Back on topic- Of course they had to put fuel in the X-Wings and Y-Wings when on Yavin to ensure that they had enough. Besides when they went to the Death Star(distance Yavin 4-Death Star longer then the length of any maps) they didn't stop anywhere to refuel. It is not realistic at all and frankly makes no sense in a Star Wars game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 and how, exactly, do you know how large the maps in SWGB2 will be? besides people, gameplay > realism, and my idea has both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 It doesn't add realism at all. Do you there'll ever be an RTS with a map as large as the distance between sullust and Endor? A distance they have to go through hyperspace to get from point A to point B? Come on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 24, 2003 Share Posted August 24, 2003 maybe I could answer the question about fuel? Almost ALL ships used reactor's to solve their needs the dew notable exceptions are the Tie Fighter and Tie Interceptor the rest of the TIE series were either designed for a one time use or long range use I.E the TIE Defender and i don't need to really explain why the Tie fighter and interceptor needed fuel do i? well i'll do it anyway Twin Ionised Engines are powered by forceing radiactive gas under large amounts of pressure out of a small hole which creates large amounts of speed but needs to refeul every 30 minutes unless like the TIE defender you have an onboard reactor. Droid Starfighter the droid starfighter used slid Fuel Pellets to power their needs i'm not to sure how that would work since i haven't got the issue with details of the droid starfighter yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Exactly how far is it from Sullest to Endor? Again luke, gameplay>realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted August 25, 2003 Share Posted August 25, 2003 Jesus Windu! When people have to hyper from Sullust to Endor it means it's pretty f*****' far! There's a difference when gameplay is more important but this is just ridiculous. Oh hey let's get back to GB1, when Nova was the called the "currency of the galaxy". It was there for gameplay but it smacked realism so hard we had to remove it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saberhagen Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 I'd just like to point out that we don't really know what the ground scale in SWGB is meant to be, so it's difficult to compare the maps to the distances travelled in the films. The limitations of representing things on computer displays means that RTS games still haven't escaped from some of the table top wargaming conventions like ground scale and figure scale/ratios, which are not always consistent with each other. For example, range and line of sight of a trooper compared to the height of a trooper is ridiculously small, but to make it properly realistic and in proportion, either the range would go off the screen, or the troopers would have to be so tiny that you couldn't see what they were. Either would probably make the game unplayable so the designers have to compromise. This also affects the number of units. It should be assumed that when you see a trooper on screen, it really represents a number of troopers. In table top gaming this ratio is usually specified, but in computer RTS games the issue tends to be brushed under the carpet. When you think about it, the size of the armies in SWGB is pitifully small if they are represented 1:1 by what you see on the screen, but having really huge armies would probably be impractical. This could also explain why units have hitpoints which go down gradually as they get shot at, whereas in the films, most troopers die with one shot. Anyway, the point of all this, is that it's not easy to compare directly the distances in the games and the distances in the films, although as the action in a game of SWGB all takes place in a part of one planet, it can reasonably be assumed that the size of a map is less than the distance between any two planets. I'm sure LA could come up with some explanation for refuelling if they thought it would improve gameplay. eg. engines have to work harder when in the atmosphere/gravitational field of a planet than in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 28, 2003 Author Share Posted August 28, 2003 Windu: This is how we know the Falcon's journey took a while: The distance between star systems is huge, and if you could travel it in less than a few months there would be no point in having a hyperdrive. While the Falcon is in transit, Luke is training with Yoda. Considering Luke's skill with a lightsaber in the battle with Vader, it seems unlikely Luke was training for anything less than a couple of months. As for you comment about refuelling at Yavin, that is a valid point. However, did you see anyone leave the Death Star run to return for fuel? No! This is the basic problem we have. We aren't saying fighters don't need fuel, we are saying they'll have enough to last the length of the battle. Also for realism purposes, it seems obvious that when an Aircraft is repaired by a Worker, they are also being refuelled. You argue that your idea will increase gamelay. I don't see how. Either the maximum range element will limit the aircraft so much that they become unusable (who would use a unit that is so dependent on other factors when they could use many others that are not?) or the maximum range is big enough that there is no point including it because Aircraft operate just like they do now anyway. You say it weakens Air to allow for strengthening overall. I think it will weaken air far too much for any other strengths to be worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 28, 2003 Share Posted August 28, 2003 I'm Not Sure HOW Far It IS but with a class one military hyper drive it's 3 days and 2 hours But Somehow for a distance that is twice that of the sullust endor run which in itself is twice the naboo tatooine run. If any one wants a map of the star wars universe put up i'll try dig one up if i can there's really no way i can scan an A1 size map on the internet. I'm not debating whether official is cannon all i'm saying that it's official not what some crack pot author who's having a block comes up with I stick with official EU and cannon stuff the only EU i really beleive is the stuff in that factfile because there are laws against people saying that something is foocial and avertising it as such if it is not. I Myself would have stuck with cannon until that fact file came out and since it's official I take most of the things in there as true especially since it's called a FACT file not OPINION file Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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