View modes in Jedi Knight Academy

[Kurgan]

Here is how I will play JA:

 

In SP, I will role play being a Jedi (and then mess around with cheats!).

 

In MP I will compete to win and have fun at the same time, while learning and constantly getting better (and hopefully playing lots of Siege!).

 

Of course, as a member of the JK.net staff I have a certain duty to review the game, and while I take my duties seriously, I can't say that I won't enjoy them! ; )

 

Rants don't have to be offensive, but they can be taken that way. Long as we can agree to disagree in the end (if we can't agree) without hurling any molotov cocktails in here... heh

[Tyler_Durden]

After playing some other quake 3 based games it became apparent to me that there must be some way to play in the first person whether it be by cheat or some kind of coding. I was checking out American McGee's Alice, in that game you actually had a slider to position where you wanted the camera, so if you wanted a straight third person perspective you could have that, whereas you could position the camera so you could basically have a first person view as well. I believe there was also a code for straight fps action also. I just think these choices should be made with all games. Personally i think it should be a staple for all games that have a play style like this, even console games like zelda and indiana jones as well as grand theft auto. I think it would appeal to more people in terms of play choice and in turn create even more sales..... something to think about

[Prime]

Originally posted by Rocketman

Well if the demo is any indicaiton there is not any first person saber view, which really upsets me. i like most of you prefere to play in first person, and if it is not in gold version it damn well better be in a patch.

Or else what?

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

I'll tell you man, if it isn't in there that is some bullsh*t. This game is being touted as a "first person shooter". Very dumb of a game company when it doesn't totally live up to what its game supposedly is.

JA has never been touted as having first-person lightsaber combat. They have not misled you in any way.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

It's a god damn option, what's the big deal about letting a big size of the community who plays in the first person not have this option? Were they too lazy to skin every costume option so it would be transparent in first person and therefore decided it would be too much of a chore to leave it out of the game? If that is the case, that is a very lame excuse.

I have only heard a small few complaining about not having first-person lightsaber combat, so I suspect that that part of the community is not as big as you think it is. And, hard as it may be for you to believe, there are reasons other than "laziness" for something not getting in a game.

 

Originally posted by Rocketman

i think its arrogant of them to say, to their lifeblood (consumers), that "oh its easier to playin 3rd person, so we are making you even if you don't want to. yeah we know many fans of the series like to feel like they are actually weilding the saber in first person, but it would take time so we don't give a damn."

They are not the one showing arrogance. Raven and Lucasarts owe you nothing. They make the game that they think will be the best with the resources they have. There is no conspiracy. They are not out to stick it to you.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

if you were anticipating the game for a long time and then suddenly you find that they didn't put the feature that is most important to you in it, don't tell me you wouldn't bitch......please. Plus all the mods that i had been planning out and doing artwork for, well this situation shot it all to hell.

No, I would not bitch about feature not being there when no one ever said it would be there in the first place. The risk you run when planning mods based on unconfirmed features is that those features won't be available. You did this to yourself.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

Then to you all, good luck and enjoy your mediocrity. I have played the best and i expect no less, especially with this game. Those of you who answered as i have predicted you would, have in fact. I will not buy this game, i will have no part of this forum or it's people from here on. Ops you might as well erase my account. Flamers don't bother replying as your words fall on deaf ears. I'll be there one day when someone who knows what they're doing makes a great game. It is obvious that it won't come from either raven or lucasarts at this time.

Childish. Goodbye.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

i know for a fact that the games we have had in the past are not even close to what can be done with the technology we have today.

Oh, your back.

 

With technology today we can go to the moon and back. So why isn't everyone going to the moon? Because sh*t ain't free. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is easy or affordably done.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

I know that the people involved are capable of more and better. Take the Q3 engine for example, there are literally dozens of engines that can do more and do it better (Bungees Halo engine, Unreal 2, Doom 3, Half life 2).

But at the time Raven started making JA, not all those engines were available. Besides, licensing engines costs a ton of money. Raven was already spending money on the engine they had, not to mention the time and cost to develop the skills to use that engine. They probably figured moving to a different engine didn't make sense.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

Yeah it will take time, years perhaps, but time we have.

Time is only one factor in the equation.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

But i can say that i have a greater imagination and a clearer thinking than many of my peers, that if i had the programming knowledge and a job developing these games, along with my illustrative skills, then what would stop me from making the single greatest star wars fps ever?

But the developers at Raven do have all those things. So why aren't they constantly turning out "the greatest star wars fps ever"? Probably because time, money, and resources are not infinite. Sacrifices have to be made, and amazingly, some things have to be left out. IMO, with the limitations they had, they turned out a pretty kick-ass game.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

I just think these choices should be made with all games. Personally i think it should be a staple for all games that have a play style like this, even console games like zelda and indiana jones as well as grand theft auto. I think it would appeal to more people in terms of play choice and in turn create even more sales.....

something to think about

But Raven/Lucasarts has already thought about it. Do you think some day they are going to wake and say, "Holy crap! We didn't even consider first-person lightsaber combat!" Of course they have thought about it, and decided it was not the way to go. They likely figured the game would simply be better with third-person lightsaber combat (and the majority of us think they are right). They probably also know that they will lose very few sales not having first-pseron lightsabers...

[Tyler_Durden]

"They probably also know that they will lose very few sales not having first-pseron lightsabers..."

 

Why would you want to lose sales when you can gain sales?

 

."But Raven/Lucasarts has already thought about it. Do you think some day they are going to wake and say, "Holy crap! We didn't even consider first-person lightsaber combat!" Of course they have thought about it, and decided it was not the way to go. They likely figured the game would simply be better with third-person lightsaber combat (and the majority of us think they are right)."

 

Make it the way to go but offer the clandestine players such as myself the freedom to play as they wish.

 

And yes there is a small silent majority of us who do play in the first person. I'm sure there are a lot of casual gamers who do not know about this board who are expecting this feature to be in the game as well. All i'm saying is there should be choices and freedom to play in the style you want. Would you still play the game if it were only offered in first person? "No," you say "because it's not even in there", yeah lucky you.

 

You also predictably choose your battles with only the negatives of what your perception is on what i have to say.

 

No i thought about it, i'll buy this game, someone will get the first person mode in whether i commission them or not. It will be there and all this conversation, what you said, what i said WILL be moot, if it isn't already.

[StormHammer]

I'm a little bit disappointed about no first person saber (mostly as a matter of choice rather than it affecting the way I play in any way), but I tend to agree that it would be hard to 'see' some of the new moves from that viewpoint.

 

Perhaps the increased variety of hands for the models has something to do with it as well. Because of the customisation options, some have gloves, others don't, so you'd have to have hand sets to cover all the possibilities or risk a backlash from people saying 'I picked custom model Y, but the hands for saber in first person don't match the model I picked'.

 

I'm not saying it couldn't be done...but it would obviously take more time.

 

I'm sure they had a good reason for not including it as an option this time around. If there were problems implementing it, then I'd rather they took it out, than have something that doesn't work very well.

[Tyler_Durden]

I just hope that, if it's not implemented by default, that someone could perhaps modify the game so i can, at the very least, bind it to a key. Maybe next time they can include that view slider that i mentioned earlier, but then again who knows who's gonna develop the next jedi knight.......

[Prime]

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

Why would you want to lose sales when you can gain sales?

Of course you wouldn't want to lose sales, but there comes a point where the necessary work (implementing first-person lightsabers in this case) does not result in a substantial gain. Perhaps the cost of implementing it would not be made up for by the extra sales. The number of people who will pass on this game simply because it has third-person lightsaber combat is small. Many people would like it, but most of those will be happy with the game regardless.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

Make it the way to go but offer the clandestine players such as myself the freedom to play as they wish.

Again, implementing all these extra features costs time and money. Certain things have to be dropped. Not that there is anything inherently bad with the option you are asking for, but since Raven decided to use the third-person option, perhaps they simply did not feel it was worthwhile implementing first-person as well. Maybe they tried it and it didn't work very well. Who knows?

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

And yes there is a small silent majority of us who do play in the first person. I'm sure there are a lot of casual gamers who do not know about this board who are expecting this feature to be in the game as well.

I'm sure many people would think it was cool. But why were you expecting it to be there? Raven never said it would be in the game, so why are you so upset at them for not having it? This has nothing to do with first-person per se, it has to do with getting upset at a company for not doing something they never said they were going to do in the first place.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

All i'm saying is there should be choices and freedom to play in the style you want.

Choices and freedom are always nice, but there comes a point where Raven had to decide what features they would include, and what they would not. Unfortunately, first-person was one that didn't make it. There are many other features that didn't either. For whatever reason, they felt third-person was the best alternative.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

Would you still play the game if it were only offered in first person? "No," you say "because it's not even in there", yeah lucky you.

Of course I would still play if it was first-person. At any point did I say first-person sucks and it shouldn't be in there? No. I have nothing against first-person sabers if they implemented it well. But by the same token, I'm happy with third-person sabers, because it is implemented well. I'd take either, really. I'm just not mad at Raven for teh choices they made.

 

I guess because I am in the software industry as well, what I take exception to is the mentality that companies must be lazy and arrogant and that they ruined everything and now we'll take our ball and go home. To top it all off, it's getting mad about something that was never mentioned to be included in the first place. How can you be mad at someone for not doing something they never said they were going to do?

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

You also predictably choose your battles with only the negatives of what your perception is on what i have to say.

I'm not really sure what this means. Again, I have nothing against first-person lightsaber combat. If it is in there, great. It doesn't affect me at all. What I don't like is the attitude that some big injustice has been done by Raven.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

No i thought about it, i'll buy this game, someone will get the first person mode in whether i commission them or not.

I'm sure it will. One way might be to simply move the camera in front of the models face. It should be easy enough with the camera commands.

[Spider AL]

I wonder how all the special moves, perspective changes, knockdowns and acrobatics associated with lightsabre usage would look in first person mode. Let me think...

 

Ah yes, they'd look rubbish.

 

Each to his own I suppose. Personally I couldn't care less about first person perspective, I always used to play JK in third, regardless of what weapon I was using.

[Nemios]

Originally posted by StormHammer

I'm a little bit disappointed about no first person saber (mostly as a matter of choice rather than it affecting the way I play in any way), but I tend to agree that it would be hard to 'see' some of the new moves from that viewpoint.

 

I' wouldn't be a big problem. In JO MP you can't see them but you know you are doing them. I often use the yellow DFA with success, walk on walls, roll and execute the move where you turn around yourself. Who likes 1st person knows how to play from that perspective.

 

Originally posted by StormHammer

Perhaps the increased variety of hands for the models has something to do with it as well. Because of the customisation options, some have gloves, others don't, so you'd have to have hand sets to cover all the possibilities or risk a backlash from people saying 'I picked custom model Y, but the hands for saber in first person don't match the model I picked'.

 

Yes, that would be a problem, a problem still in JO MP. But I've never heard anyone complaining. Better a single "pair of hands" than nothing and they could simply specify in the readme that only a single trasparent skin is available.

 

Originally posted by StormHammer

I'm not saying it couldn't be done...but it would obviously take more time.

 

I'm sure they had a good reason for not including it as an option this time around. If there were problems implementing it, then I'd rather they took it out, than have something that doesn't work very well.

 

I'm sorry to say I think that since they don't like it and found it not so important they chose to left it out just to not hear complaints about a single trasparent skin, because indeed... it was already there in JO!!!

 

Originally posted by

Spider AL

I wonder how all the special moves, perspective changes, knockdowns and acrobatics associated with lightsabre usage would look in first person mode. Let me think...

 

Ah yes, they'd look rubbish.

 

If you really want to know, try them in JO MP setting CG_FPLS to 1. They could look rubbish... to you, not to everyone.

[Sabre9]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Each to his own I suppose. Personally I couldn't care less about first person perspective, I always used to play JK in third, regardless of what weapon I was using.

 

Yep, shooting with guns in 3rd person gives better SA, IMO. I wish every FPS would give the option of shooting in 3rd (WITH target reticle, thankyouverymuch!)

 

Ya, ya, it wouldn't be a FPS then, I know. Oh well.

[shaowei]

JA is not entirely the same game as JO; a lot of code may be reused, but perhaps they still need to recode a lot to make that first person view that would work WELL with all those new moves. And that might just not have been reasonable given that so many people prefer 3rd person for lightsaber fighting.

 

1st person mode may be good for blocking blaster shots and immersion, I enjoyed it in JK1, but it never came close to 3rd person mode in terms of judging distance and peripheral vision, which are essential in 3D games when fighting at melee distance. 3rd person is superior, because a newbie will get better much faster with 3rd person than with 1st when using lightsaber.

 

It would be very logical of Raven/Lucasarts not to include 1st person perspective with sabers if it takes up significant development resources.

 

Also, it might still be available via the console command, so it is too early to say anything at the point.

[Kurgan]

I found two console command in the JA Demo cvarlist that sound promising (untested):

 

CG_FPLS " 1 "

 

(in the command list)

 

setviewpos

 

 

Yes, CG_FPLS 1 in JK2 MP was great. It was even better than the SP version, because you could do all the acrobatic moves and special abilities with the lightsaber in it, and it wouldn't make you dizzy like some of those mods out there. ; )

 

I can understand them not including First Person Lightsaber because of time, but the fact is it's "already done" in JK2, so why couldn't they just leave the same code in there to be toggled with a cvar? All it is, if I understand correctly, is using a "transparent skin" with the field of view zoomed in on the hands/saber. The only thing that is "wrong" with it is that no matter what skin you use, it always shows Kyle's hands. But that I can live with, if it means using the Lightsaber in 1st person in MP if I choose to.

 

If I had the time, I'd record a JK2 demo that showed the First Person Lightsaber in action. Anybody who feels like it, by me guest.... and post it here, or send it to me and I'll attach it to a post.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Kurgan

I can understand them not including First Person Lightsaber because of time, but the fact is it's "already done" in JK2, so why couldn't they just leave the same code in there to be toggled with a cvar?

Because perhaps some code from JO does not work in JA. Just because many of the same features are in JA does not mean all the code is the same. The engine the JA code runs on is different than the one from JA in many respects. As someone who has had to do it before, I can tell you that even though something looks easy, it is not always simple to port code. In this case we don't really know what the issues were. But it may have not been as simple as "leaving the code in". Perhaps a lot of new code would be needed to do it, and thus was decided against.

[Spider AL]

Yep, shooting with guns in 3rd person gives better SA, IMO. I wish every FPS would give the option of shooting in 3rd (WITH target reticle, thankyouverymuch!)

Hear hear. I've been lobbying for this for years.

 

If you really want to know, try them in JO MP setting CG_FPLS to 1. They could look rubbish... to you, not to everyone.

Ja, I already know. I was being facetious.

 

This post brings up an interesting point, where does personal preference stop, and denial of reality start?

 

Let me give an example... Using a common joystick to control an FPS is almost universally frowned upon. Some people insist on it, however. But the most skilled players, as a rule, are those that do not use joysticks. Back in the day, in JK, third person was the norm among experienced players, because it gave a wider field of view relative to one's player model, and a perspective more conducive to using the force powers effectively. Thus, first person view was the least effective.

 

Frankly this holds true for all FPS games in my experience, and so first person/third person choices are not really personal preference any more than using a joystick or a mouse is a personal preference. The mouse gives one better control. To play more effectively, one must use a mouse as opposed to a joystick.

 

Is looking down the wrong end of a rifle a "personal preference"? No. First person views with the sabre are rubbish, full stop.

[Prime]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Back in the day, in JK, third person was the norm among experienced players, because it gave a wider field of view relative to one's player model, and a perspective more conducive to using the force powers effectively. Thus, first person view was the least effective.

This is why I prefer the third person view, and I would rather the whole game be in third person, considering how things are implemented now. I find after using the lightsaber for a while switching to guns (and first person) makes me paranoid because I really feel the limits of the visual range. All you can see is directly ahead, whereas with third-person you can see what is beside you, and in some cases, behind you. In some senses, this is actually more "realistic". With first person, I often find that I am getting fired upon from an angle that is not in front of me, and in this case all I see is my health going down, and all I hear is the shots hitting me. With third person, at least I can see which direction the shots are coming from, and thus react more quickly.

 

I guess I don't feel first-person is really necessary because I don't feel the need to "pretend" I am the character in the game.

[Tyler_Durden]

This to me is all speculation at best. I for one play in the first person because to me it is more realistic. In real life you do not have the ability to see behind you and you do in fact have a very limited range. I also commit sacrelige and do in fact primarily use a gamepad for this game......... ouch.

[Spider AL]

In real life you do not have the ability to see behind you and you do in fact have a very limited range.

You know Tyler, in real life you aren't able to levitate inanimate objects. If you want realism in your gaming experience, I suggest you're playing the wrong series.

 

If however you want to see out of the Jedi's eyes because you want to RPG, you're still playing the wrong series. JK is an action game, in an action genre, and all the RPGers can go to the underworld that fits their respective belief systems.

 

I also commit sacrelige and do in fact primarily use a gamepad for this game......... ouch.

That would make you an inferior player. Sorry.

[Tyler_Durden]

I think clandestine would be the word, kemo.

 

Ops, I really think this thread should be closed now, there is really nothing constructive left to say and i think it's gonna start turning into a flame war because people have different opinions on what they want in the game as opposed to what's already there.

[Spider AL]

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

 

I think clandestine would be the word, kemo.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Perhaps it's all part of your deep, dark, oh-so effectual clandestine plan, or something.

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

 

Ops, I really think this thread should be closed now, there is really nothing constructive left to say and i think it's gonna start turning into a flame war because people have different opinions on what they want in the game as opposed to what's already there.

 

Yes "Ops", do what Tyler advises. Do EXACTLY what Tyler advises.

 

Tyler also said this though:

 

Originally posted by Tyler_Durden

 

I will not buy this game, i will have no part of this forum or it's people from here on. Ops you might as well erase my account.

So do that too please. Otherwise he might get a lot of other threads closed due to mysteriously erupting flame wars. Self fulfilling prophecy, anyone?

[Tyler_Durden]

ok, AL, eat a dick..... there

[Kurgan]

You know Tyler, in real life you aren't able to levitate inanimate objects.

 

Hmmf... maybe YOU can't. ; )

 

J/k

 

 

Okay, guys, seriously, lay off the flames.. what is the point of all this bickering? Are personal attacks going to get Raven to code something into the game (which for all we know is already there but just hidden in a cvar)?

 

Since the game has gone gold, if its not there now, it's not going to happen unless its added in a patch.

 

Suffice to say, bitching about anything that's not Single Player related at this point is premature.

 

If somebody doesn't like the game fine, let them. If somebody wants to whine about it, fine, but at least debate about it in a civilized and non-hostile manner.

 

Quitting the community before it even starts? Sorry to see you go, but c'mon, that's his choice too.

 

Anyway... thread closed. Just don't get so carried away next time....