OJP (Open Jedi Project)

[Wudan]

Well, Re: Fragmentation - that's going to happen anyway.

 

You can't tell people to be original - it's something they'll have to do themselves.

 

I plan on radically changing gameplay in my mod, I agree with Emon that gameplay shouldn't be changed by the OJP - but I think that certain fixes and improvements could be made without destroying gameplay (because gameplay is in shambles as it is).

 

Whatever I want to add on top of that is my business

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Whatever I want to add on top of that is my business

 

I totally agree...

...as long as your not 99% similar to another OJP mod - which I think is reasonable to ask...

 

(or some high percentage - 98% would probably not be good either! )

 

Since you plan on 'radically changing gameplay', sounds like you'll have absolutely no problem with meeting that requirement.

Can't wait to see what you come up with btw...

 

(because gameplay is in shambles as it is)

 

This is a totally objective opinion.

(I don't have one yet - I've just bought the game this second. I haven't even got round to installing it yet! lol )

But I've spent enough time in the Jedi Academy forums to know that there are very much two sides to that story...

[Emon]

Yes, there are definately two sides, and it looks like it's boiling down to patches. Some people think patches are bad, I disagree. I think the only reason it was bad for JO was because LEC pulled the plug, and Raven started working on JA. That, and **** just happens, some people made some bad choices or mistakes, it isn't garunteed to happen again.

[Emon]

Originally posted by Wudan

You can't tell people to be original - it's something they'll have to do themselves.

 

That's sort of what I was getting it, thank you for stating so. Really guys, making people e-mail you for the source code isn't going to stop look alike mods.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I agree - I am no longer suggesting people e-mail us for access to the source code initially. I'm totally down with that. I have been for quite a few posts now.

 

What I am proposing HAS to be organised fairly well is the releasing of NEW mods built from OJP source code.

 

I guess this should require some kind of request e-mail, along with the description of the mod etc.

But anyway - let's just decide what permissions are needed first. Once we know that, then we get a bit more nitty-gritty and decide exactly how they should work...

[Emon]

What do you mean, new mods built with OJP?

 

Razorace and Wudan, what are your mod ideas? I'm also thinking about a mod I'd like to do, and if our plans aren't far off, I think it would be to the best for all of us to combine efforts. Basically, I want to take what's in JA, fix it (if not fixed in patches), and improve upon it. Right now I'm thinking of scoping the E-11 and bowcaster, and bringing back some guns from DF and JK.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Blimey!

...what have we been talking about this whole time?!

 

Please check my very first post in this thread:

 

Overall, it seems the aim of the OJP is to provide a standard 'library' of bug fixes / improvements etc. That's fine - I get that. And I see the need for these bug fixes / improvements to be regulated and controlled.

 

Now - from what I've read - the idea is that mods are built 'on top of' OJP - i.e. using the OJP code as a base. If this is the case - then woohoo - this is great!

 

If this wasn't the idea, you maybe should have mentioned something earlier...

 

I don't mind disagreeing on things - but if your not going to read my posts properly, this makes things very difficult.

 

If the idea ISN'T to build new mods 'on top of' the OJP source, then I see it as a very limited concept. Sure - it may have appeal to a few developers who have very similar ideas on what they want to do. But what about the rest of us who DO possibly want to change gameplay a bit? Even drastically?

 

Are we just plain out of luck? i.e. the OJP can't really do anything for us?!

 

 

Emon - if you just want to get a few people together to make a mod, you don't need a big, old open source project for that, you just need to get a mod team together!!

[Emon]

I don't know, I read your posts, but I got confused some how.

 

That's definately the idea behind OJP, it always has been. I'm confused, when was there confusion on that??

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

LOL!

 

...when you said this:

 

What do you mean, new mods built with OJP?

 

I think everybody is confused now - certainly including myself!!

 

Tell ya what - you tell me whatever language your speaking, I'll go off and learn it (it seems to be like English, but slightly different) and then we'll carry on the conversation!

 

[edit]

I'm sorry - I'm just getting a bit fustrated here. I think I've been making myself pretty clear...

 

When I say 'new mods built from OJP source code' - I mean 'new mods which use some OJP source code'. Is that clear?

 

Is anybody else finding me incomprehensible?!

[/edit]

[Emon]

Sorry, I was referring to this comment of yours:

 

What I am proposing HAS to be organised fairly well is the releasing of NEW mods built from OJP source code.

 

I guess this should require some kind of request e-mail, along with the description of the mod etc.

But anyway - let's just decide what permissions are needed first. Once we know that, then we get a bit more nitty-gritty and decide exactly how they should work...

 

In response to that, I think people should have to e-mail us simply telling us they are using the source code in their mod, so that we can keep track of it. Well, it wouldn't necessarily have to be required, but it would be a benefit to both parties if they did.

 

Another great thing about building mods on OJP, is that you could have levels built with new code and entities that will run on any mod built off OJP, which I hope to be almost all. One of the cool things about the code setup in the original Jedi Knight, was that you could add any kind of code you wanted, on a per-level basis. Q3 lacks this, and OJP could help as a remedy.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

OK - I think were communicating now

 

Another great thing about building mods on OJP, is that you could have levels built with new code and entities that will run on any mod built off OJP, which I hope to be almost all.

 

Yes - this is a GREAT plus to having the OJP in place - totally agree.

 

In response to that, I think people should have to e-mail us simply telling us they are using the source code in their mod, so that we can keep track of it. Well, it wouldn't necessarily have to be required, but it would be a benefit to both parties if they did.

 

Yes, this is the right way to think of it.

 

If we can keep track of the mods which are using OJP source, then if we see two mods which are 99% similar we can just say 'Hey guys - it looks like your mods are going to be practically the same - might you consider joining forces?' It may turn out that there were more differences than we realised - or they may indeed join forces. Whatever. At least we can TRY and organise things so that overly-similar mods don't get made - because that doesn't help anybody. Not the mod makers, or the end users - the players.

 

Ok -so do we agree that - ideally - all mod makers who want to use OJP source in their new mod need to touch base with the OJP admins - so we can organise things? That's all I'm saying...

[Emon]

Sounds good.

 

Only reason I can see that someone wouldn't want to use OJP is the view that it's bloated, and would have large VMs. But this isn't going to affect actual speed, only load times perhaps. At least noticably. Only truely anal coders like ASk will have a problem.

[Scarlett]

Actually, my idea I was thinking about would be to possibly have a couple of different versions.

I don't really like that idea. It seems like it'd be best to just keep everything in one version. As long as any beyond-patch gameplay changing aspects are done outside of BG code, we can easily make them Cvar options... i think that'd be the best way to go.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Yes - the OJP code itself is going to get quite large!

 

People making new mods from the OJP source code are free to 'strip out' whatever they don't need though I guess. At least I don't see why this is a problem.

 

...and as long as all the OJP additions have been clearly marked with nice clear, searchable comments, it should be as painless as possible to do this - ideally as least...

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I don't really like that idea. It seems like it'd be best to just keep everything in one version. As long as any beyond-patch gameplay changing aspects are done outside of BG code, we can easily make them Cvar options... i think that'd be the best way to go.

 

Well - partly, this depends on what people see as the scope of the OJP.

 

Seems that some people just see it strictly for bug fixes and improvements which don't affect basic gameplay.

 

However, I saw it as more encompasing than that. For example, I am ready to add an LMS (Last Man Standing) system to the OJP. But this - of course - DOES affect basic gameplay...

 

First of all, is this kind of work (e.g. LMS) welcome to be added to the OJP?

 

Second - assuming it is - do we release the OJP absolutely chock-full of cvars? To me - that seems like a total mess. I dont' agree with that. Pro players - for one - would NEVER play it - because they would never know what type of game they were playing when they joined an OJP server - they would rather not have the bug fixes - no matter how good - and just stick with the base game.

 

So splitting it up into at least 2 types of mods allows us to take on any and all 'improvements' without turning the released OJP mod into a cvar nightmare!

[Emon]

I don't like the multiple version idea, either. Just have internal and external releases. Internal is very frequent, external leaves out the minor revisions so people don't have to update so damn much.

 

Gameplay changes through cvars would give end users a little more incentive to run the mod. But restrict them to balance issues, nothing major. Through this, OJP could patch any gameplay issues that Raven doesn't or cannot get (like if LEC pulls the plug), and, hopefully, become an unofficial patch, and at the same time support all sorts of new user made levels. (Competitive players wouldn't bother with this mod, as they almost always like everything vanilla, but I personally think that kind of strict competitive play sucks anyways).

 

I have a lot of faith in this project. I think that if it goes the way we want, it could be the sole factor in determining the long term condition of JA.

[Emon]

ROP, I see your problem with the cvars, but I believe multiple mods is a bigger problem. It's confusing, they're not compatible, just... I don't like it. We aren't going to be making six hundred changes here, so it won't be a huge mess.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Emon,

 

Can you please just double-check you've read my last post thouroughly.

 

I'm not talking about different versions as in v1.0, v1.1, v2.0.

 

I'm talking about two different 'builds' of the OJP.

 

One which is limited to only bug-fixes and non-gameplay changing improvements. (Sounds like this is what your most interested in)

 

...and another build which could have all the other additions (e.g. LMS, extra force levels, jetpacks etc. etc.)

 

...unless were not intending the second kind of additions to be allowed in the OJP at all. In which case I think that's a bit limiting. And actually going against the whole 'open source' concept you've been speaking so strongly for...

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

ROP, I see your problem with the cvars, but I believe multiple mods is a bigger problem. It's confusing, they're not compatible, just... I don't like it. We aren't going to be making six hundred changes here, so it won't be a huge mess.

 

I believe the opposite.

 

I think it's FAR worse to have one mod chock-full of cvars, than having two builds.

 

Either that, or we have to think about limiting the amount - and the SCOPE of the features we can have in the OJP - which I don't think is very appealing, and goes against the idea of 'open source'...

 

 

And it's not just the literal amount of changes, it's also the SCOPE of the changes.

 

You seem to be under the impression no-one was going to add features which changed basic gameplay.

 

However, I was already planning to do so. (LMS)

 

If you do accept the LMS code, and you add a cvar for it, then say goodbye to the so-called 'professional' JKII players who just want to play the game as it is - no massive gameplay changes from base should be even possible.

 

If you still accept the LMS code, but don't include it in the final mod - what was the point of me contributing it in the first place?

 

If you don't accept the LMS code - then you limit the whole idea of the OJP. It would still work, and it would be fairly good - but why not allow all changes and make 2 builds?

 

Could you explain exactly how 2 builds will cause such confusion?! Seems pretty simple, clear and effective to me...

 

but again - it's majority rules here - so whatever everybody else thinks...

[Emon]

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

Emon,

 

Can you please just double-check you've read my last post thouroughly.

 

I'm not talking about different versions as in v1.0, v1.1, v2.0.

 

I'm talking about two different 'builds' of the OJP.

 

One which is limited to only bug-fixes and non-gameplay changing improvements. (Sounds like this is what your most interested in)

 

...and another build which could have all the other additions (e.g. LMS, extra force levels, jetpacks etc. etc.)

 

...unless were not intending the second kind of additions to be allowed in the OJP at all. In which case I think that's a bit limiting. And actually going against the whole 'open source' concept you've been speaking so strongly for...

 

1. I know what you mean, I know you mean different builds, and I still disagree.

 

2. Things like LMS, jetpacks, and whatever aren't what OJP is for, that's for the mods built on OJP. OJP is for things like new entities, bug fixes, new collision detection, maybe like new and fixed AI, and maybe very small gameplay changes to fix balance issues, making it an unofficial patch. Speaking of patches, that could be used as a guideline for what should go in. If Raven wouldn't add it in a patch, maybe it shouldn't be in OJP. Patches rarely severely alter gameplay or add new elements to gameplay, only fix them, which, as I have followed, the limit to gameplay changes for months now.

 

3. It's limiting, sort of, because it goes beyond the scope of OJP. We want, or at least I want it to help developers to make their own gameplay changes, not let them use ones we've created. If we go by your idea, we'll start to see some lookalike mods. And how does this go against open source? Open source just means the source code is freely available to anyone, in a nutshell.

 

4. "Chock-full of cvars"... As stated above, we'd only be making minor changes, there would be no more than like a dozen new cvars. I don't see that as "chock-full".

 

And limiting what goes into OJP is, as stated above, not against open source. This is primarily a mod for developers, not end users. Rather, it is for developers directly, end users are affected indirectly.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Ok - I see what your saying.

 

Basically, I've seen the OJP slightly differently than you have.

 

Yes, if we are limiting the OJP to non-gameplay changing features, then fair enough. We don't need two builds - I agree.

 

However, I'll be a bit disappointed if this is the case. I saw the OJP being a little bit more ecnompasing than that.

 

...but if this is the case, then so be it...

 

I think we can do what you want to do AND MORE with the 2 build concept. And I don't see it as confusing - at all infact! But whatever everybody else thinks...

[Scarlett]

Alright, i can see your point about having different builds, Renegade, rather than all the options... i didn't think about some of those things. But let's just limit it to two, eh? One for enhancements alone and another of additions and the enhancements. So when there's a new update that's an enhancement, it'll be implimented into both builds.

[Emon]

Hey, I understand what you mean. But think about it. If we make all those changes, there's no real point in having other mods, and we're going to see a lot of copycats.

 

Take for example various C/C++ libraries. LibXML only loads and parses XML stuff for you, it doesn't interface with your code. LibJPG will load JPEGs for you, but it won't start drawing them on cubes for you in OpenGL. Every project's got to have some sort of boundaries, for OJP, it's gameplay changes.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Alright, i can see your point about having different builds, rather than options... i didn't think about some of those things. But let's just limit it to two, eh? One for enhancements alone and another of additions and the enhancements. So when there's a new update that's an enhancement, it'll be implimented into both builds.

 

This is EXACTLY what I am proposing. Just 2 builds - that's fine.

 

All the stuff in the 'enhancement' mod would also be fully included in the 'additions' mod - exactly.

 

In this sense, they are compatible mods.

 

The ONLY reason for the two builds is because your more serious JKII gamer wants to know what he's playing when he joins a server...

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Hey, I understand what you mean. But think about it. If we make all those changes, there's no real point in having other mods, and we're going to see a lot of copycats.

 

Not nessesarily true Emon. Not all mods will nessesarily just blanketly use all the features from the OJP. And this was the whole point of the copy-cat clause we've been talking about for a while.

 

I, for one - know that the mod I would plan to make from the OJP would not just casually copy ovver all the features. In fact, I'm fairly sure I wouldn't want half of them! My mod is about Movie Realism - so a lot of it wouldn't be applicable (one small example - RGB sabers - I wouldn't want them - I would only want colours seen in the movies).

 

If you read my first post, I used two case examples to illustrate how I saw it working.

 

Your analogies between libraries and the OJP only work if you consider the OJP actually as a library. It doesn't nessesarily have to be JUST that...