How to stop an fc ("kicks" in CTF)

[Gabrobot]

Originally posted by dyehead

I think you're missing the point, which is that guns suck, and that's not an option to solve the problem of what our question was, your reply was, 'lamers, shut up and use guns because s/o ctf is dumb'

 

Okay, so you're saying that your opinion is that guns suck and that my opinion is that saber only CTF sucks...thanks for not only stating your opinion in a manner which seems to imply that you're right and that it's a fact, but also giving me an opinion which I don't have. If I used the same tactics, then I could say something about your opinion being that everyone who doesn't play saber only CTF should jump in front of a train, and we would get exactly nowhere. Please, enough of the childish nonsense of warping my opinion and then forcing it on me...it just shows why you shouldn't be the ones to be deciding if something needs to be changed in the gameplay...you have no respect for others and their opinions.

 

 

Now, the reason you think guns suck may be that you can't, and refuse to, learn how to use them and how to defend yourself against them. I was playing a JA FFA game just yesterday, where I was one of the top scorers...the reason was because I was using everything I had to kill people. I used force powers, my lightstaff and guns. Then this guy (who had all of 2 points by the time the match ended) started calling me "lame" and that I "don't know how to play jk"...now, guess what type of player he was? He was one of those "honor" people who feel that their way of playing is right, and since that doesn't include using guns, he's going complain about it when he's always killed by guns.

Now, I don't know if that's why you think guns suck, but that's what I suspect. If I am wrong in my suspicion, then correct my error and please state a logical reason why you think they suck.

 

I don't know if saber only CTF sucks, as I haven't tried playing that way...why have I not played that way? Because, to me, it doesn't sound like a fun way to play. That's just my opinion, and there are obviously some people who find it fun...that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. I prefer to play CTF with everything it was intended to be played with. Some people may not want to play with everything...that's fine, they can play it however they want. If something doesn't work when you play that way, however, don't blame Raven and demand that they make a patch to "fix" this "bug"...that is not fine. Raven made the game the way it is for a reason...kicks were popular...Raven would not have taken them out if there wasn't a problem with them being in. That problem is that they're easy to pull off, and completely screw up all the other elements of the gameplay.

 

I have stated my reasons for why I think kick would be used, and why it would ruin JA just like it did in JKII...if you ignore my logical arguments, then that's your own fault, not mine.

 

And my last message is: Don't ruin everyone else's fun. It is tragic that the way you played CTF in JO is no longer fun in JA, but that's just because Raven made people depend on everything, rather than a few moves repeated in robotic button presses. That is JA, and if you don't like the way JA is played, then that is your problem...JA is JA...and if you bring up that idiotic "JA is a JO mod" argument, then be warned that I have a logical reply for that, as well.

 

I'm also so glad I'm talking with people who value other peoples opinions so highly, that they openly say, in a most rude way, that you're going to ignore my reply's if you don't like them. Very open minded of you, I must say.

[Hatred01]

If Raven wanted those features in JA they would have put them there...and I believe I remember reading somewhere they some of those they specifically did NOT want in JA.

 

There is no need to make a new thread with the same retarded points about JA needing to become JO. You say s/o is impossible to cap, I say you suck as I always get a cap or two when I play. Then again CTF is for newbs anyway, which is why I dont play it much in the first place.

[darkangel_vnv]

How to kill a FC.

 

With no Pull.

With no Push.

With no Throw.

With no Grip.

 

It's pretty simple.

 

Hit them with your -saber-. That's what it's there for. I've killed countless people in CTF games, using a saber. No guns, no force. Just my trusty saber.

 

That's the answer. Try it. It works. =P

[Reapy]

Hi. I'm a newb. I have made the mistake of lurking and reading all of your "how do i kill an fc you bunch of #$%$@@$ newbs?!?!" posts.

 

From what I read of those threads (and I did read all the posts), the only people saying the excuses you've made up, are yourselves. When people do offer an idea, you basically tell them to stfu, and that they have no clue what they are talking about, and have no right to post in your thread.

 

I agree that not everyone knows what they are talking about, but at liest they took the time to offer an idea. If you don't want to hear people's opinions who aren't in the community, go back to posting on the twl forums, and leave these ones alone.

 

I was lurking here looking for people to talk about the multiplayer game. All I see are people crying because kick isn't back in the game.

 

From all I have read that you posted, it sure does sound like s/o ctf is in trouble without kick. I think everyone here agrees with you that it is a problem, and stopping a fc is next to impossible. But the vast majority of people do not want the flip kick back in the game, you have to see that. You have your one solution, we have heard it, numerous times, in numerous duplicate posts.

 

I would actually like to hear the things you have tried that havent worked to stop the fc. I find it interesting. I relise that you guys played the game a lot, and are probably quite good at it. I do agree with you that ja is basically an expansion pack for jo, so the "learn the game" fud is bs.

 

What have you guys tried? I think when people say, learn the game, they mean, try new tactics. It is quite obviouse that the balance is off in that one game mode, but for now, you are going to have to adapt your tactics.

 

Instead of sitting there, spamming the same messge over and over like a viagra advertisment, how about you add something constructive to your own posts, which you care so much about.

 

I know you guys have tried stuff, but please, share it with us, so when we wade through all the reptative posts, we at liest come out knowing something more.

 

So anyway, here are my ideas. I'm a newb, I'm sure you tried them, but I might as well throw something on the table. Again, from what I've read, I agree that you probably need something more, or new tactics, for s/o ctf.

 

Quick backstory of newbishness. Got JO, played 1.2 a lot on pub servers all the time, all they needed to do was make it so dfa didn't spin. Hated 1.3 butt fighting, but played a little. Quit playing by 1.4. I was ok, never great. Enjoyed weapons ffa's the most. Played a bunch of weapon ctf and ff duels.

 

Ok, ideas.

 

I've noticed from my two nights playing JA that the staff butterfly move is pretty overpowered. It is balanced somewhat by the fact it uses force, but on a super fast regen server, its easily exploitable (I'll get into that in a sec, a much more serious issue then kick imho). Anyway, hitting someone with the butterfly takes off like 60+ health, even for a glancing blow. It also moves fast, and is easy to control.

 

Have you guys drained the dedicated energizers? As soon as they get in the flag room can you drain them? I don't know how effective energize is, but if two guys can energize each other through a drain, then it should be toned down.

 

I didn't once see any of you mention team heal or team energize as being over powered, even though you have clearly stated that they are so effective that the a team can keep a flag runner fully healed and energized while he is being chased by several people at once. Hopefully these people are draining the flag runner and people around him?

 

From what you all have described, the problem seems to be team heal an energize. Try to set up a server by disableing these powers. Is the flag killer so difficult to kill now? If you don't feel that you should turn these powers off and want them in, why are you petitioning for kick (which appears to be annoying to every othe person in other game types) back in the game. From what it sounds like kick is a jerry rigged tactic to fix a broken power.

 

Seriously though, if all of you guys are so good, I don't understand how you can't get over to the guys base, drain him, drain his buddies, team energize each other, butterfly into the guy, drain push him into a kata, or whatever. I don't buy this ulimited health + force bs. I don't. Why is he allowed to get ulimited force + health? What are you doing to stop it?

 

I know you have all tried this stuff, but please, how about telling us before hand, instead of waiting for someone to put forth an idea and then swoop in decaring your omniptotence to us n00bs.

 

Throwing. Why have you not mentioned throwing? Why cant 1 guy drain everything in sight with a 2th guy energizing him and 2 throwing sabers at the fc?

 

Anyway, running out of time to type and I have to get back to work. To sum it up, sounds to me like the problem is team heal and team energize, and not the absence of kick. Also, do us a favor and post something constructive instead of the same thing over and over again. What have you tried to do to deal with the poor situation you are in besides spam some forums?

[Comm539]

Darkangel: The problem is actually stopping the fc, in order to kill him. I'm sure you can kill an fc on a pubic server (so can everyone)...but thats not the problem. The problem occurs in competetive matches (ie.clan matches) when two fc's who have even the slightest of a clue what to do (ie. run away) that the fc cannot be caught to do whatever moves you want to kill him. Kicking would stop the fc. We do not want kicking as a way to kill, merely as a way to stop an running fc

 

The comparason with kicking and a 'one hit jump on your head move' is ridiculous. Kicking isn't a one hit killer, although the roll stab is (which is why people whore it).

Kicking isn't a very powerful move either...just 20hp. When theres saber damages that does more, its unlikely people would just 'whore kicking' becuase its easy. Personally I find a kata, rollstab and butterfly all far easier and all do more damage.

Kicking is however, a way to stop a 'runner'.

Despite this, we realise that others may still not want kicking and is why we have asked for a toggleable kick patch, so only the people who need it have to have it.

 

 

Reapy:

No force creates a ridiculously slow game...so its not an option.

 

Draining the enrgizers won't work. They will start (if they're not already) energy chaining to give both themselves and the fc infinite force.

 

Again butterfly and w/e isn't any good unless you can stop the fc from running away in the firstplace.

 

 

The post is a request, highlighting the problems in s/o ctf. It asks for kicks to be reintroduced as a toggleable patch for s/o ctf. We're sick of people saying 'your meant to be good, kill him anyway." But if both fc's know what to do and run away, there isn't a way to stop him. There are no new tactics to learn, since raven didn't add any new ways to stop people. This is why the old way of stopping someone (kicking) is needed in s/o ctf.

 

We've told you how to do it (readd kicking) but some people disagree. To these people, give us an alternate way. I'm afraid noone has of yet managed to answer:

How to stop an fc in s/o cft

[Reapy]

Ok, but what I am trying to say is, you are coming to the forums and saying, kicking was the only way we knew how to stop it, its not there, we cant stop it. That's a defeatist attitude. Instead, you need to be saying, we did x and y and it doesnt work. At liest let people know you have tried out all the old tactics used before kicking was discovered (I'm sure in JO people had the same issues until someone figured out kicking someone to death kicked ass).

 

I also didn't say don't use force. I said dont use team heal and team energize. Those are your problems, not a lack of kick. Instead of introducing a feature that will split an already tiny community (that was my other issue, got busy so I had to post before I got to it), why not tweak team heal and team energize. Changing those powers will only affect team games, and most of the game types by people who are bothered by kick, wont be effected.

 

It doesnt sound right that you can get an energize chain over draining, or someone energizing two drainers.

 

I'd say for now, if you have given up on there being a way to rebalance the game mode, you are going to have to disable team energize or team heal, or both. Maybe you can just limit the power to level 1. If you are willing to toggle kick on/off and customize the server that way, then why not use the toggle you already have?

 

Some people are really against kick, becuase it will split the community. The community is tiny as hell too. To me, a casual gamer (I used to play as hard as you guys did at other games, but growing up doesnt leave the time or desire to do it anymore), the community is the server list i pull up in the game. Right now the server list has something like 30 servers on it, 10 of which are warez I cant join. The others are empty, or have a bad ping. If they are good, chances are that they have force regen jacked up, and my ffa game is going to have 10 people walking around with their sabers down yelling at you for playing an ffa. I don't have a problem with this style of gameplay on a server that has rules outlined to play as such. I'll just find another thats set up to play like a real ffa.

 

Unfortunatly, I don't have that option. I have only played ja a few nights, but I have yet to find a server (duel, power duel, ffa) that has a good ping (<110 ), full force, and default settings. All of the ones I have are no force (dont mind this setting), no guns, with super force regen on. It's rediculous.

 

The other night I got on a good ffa server. After the game I had 76 or so kills, the guy closest to me had around 45. All i did was butterfly everyone, occasionally doing a kata or regular hit, maybe a few roll stabs into duel saber katas. I couldn't do this with out super force regen. I want server options, where I can play any game mode I want. JA doesnt have that. Thats the more immediate threat then having a kick toggle.

 

Imagine if I don't like kick. Now the chances of me finding a server with "factory" settings are even slimmer to none, as now have of the servers are going to have kick and the other half arent going to have it.

 

Anyway, you guys are just being too close minded, asking a rhetorical question (translation: question that has no answer) over and over adn over and over again? What do you want to hear?

 

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!

 

There, yes, we all agree with you, s/o ctf if hurting without kick. But when you want a patch, you are effecting the whole community, so you have to listen to the whole community. The whole community says kick is the suxs. That isn't what you want to hear, so like a spoiled child, you are repeating the same arguments over and over again, hoping to hear one person say, yeah, throw kick back in.

 

Well, there is no kick right now. So work around it, nurf energize and heal on your servers. You are in a league, and the only time this matters are when you play your league matches (by your own words), so instead of fractioning an already small community with a patch, so your even smaller twl community can play better games by adding kick, mod your league rules instead, and nerf and/or remove team heal and energize.

[Rumor]

i will state it again:

 

WE DO NOT WANT MORE NERFS. that just drives more players away.

 

heal/energize are HUGE parts of strategy in matches.

[Comm539]

Nurfin forces etc will only lead to balance issues. Kicks were in JK2 and since this is 80% the same code it won't affect balance (even if it does, we just turn kicking off).

 

We have tried everything, meaning literally everything in JO to stop an fc. These were pre-stated but again:

Gripkick

kick

pull kick

dfa

rage dfa

ptk

 

These were ways to kill the fc with 1 hit or to stop the fc to finish him.

 

You admitted yourself

 

The other night I got on a good ffa server. After the game I had 76 or so kills, the guy closest to me had around 45. All i did was butterfly everyone, occasionally doing a kata or regular hit, maybe a few roll stabs into duel saber katas.

 

Your spamming moves (not just you, i mean most people). These moves do 4x as much damage as a kick! Why would kicks be an 'easy kill' when you already spam these moves? I suppose these are much more skillful and harder to implement than kicking? I would say its vice versa. Kicks are no longer 'overpowerful' when the best way to win is spamming duel sabers.

 

 

BTW, s/o ctf community was the largest competetive and longest active community in JK2, not a minority. And remember, you think you'll have trouble finding a server with factory settings. Saber collision, combo limits, timing, swings etc are all redefined as irrelevant. The best way to win has become spamming duel saber swings and the odd kata. This threatens all of the competetive community.

So although we may be a minority (a large minority at that ), I would imagine it would be 10x harder to find a server if the competetive community dies: Who do you think runs all those servers?

[Kurgan]

My solution is simply to use all the weapons in the game, rather than just sabers.

 

But that's just me...

[Comm539]

Please don't suggest to change gametypes. If duellers had everything but bluestance removed would you tell them to grab a stun baton and call you Charlie? We want to solve our gametype that has and can still worked, not play another one.

[Reapy]

I must be communicating poorly, because I agree with you on all of these things. I am well aware that a thriving competative community is needed for a game to last. I am also aware that if a game's mechanics are so off that you can't compete, casual gamers suffer just as much, because in the end, the game isnt as fun.

 

I liked kick, and wouldn't care if it was in the game at all. I got bored spamming one move. The move should work in concert with a few others to effectivly kill someone. I didnt like 1.4 ffa's because it took too long for you to kill someone, ruining the fun somewhat, when you would batter someone down only to have someone come running around the corner flailing and getting the last hit in.

 

I am not saying I think kick is over powered, and it doesnt belong. I agree with your plight 100% and believe it is a problem. And perhaps you are right, nurfing isnt going to be a solution.

 

JA in general just seems to keep you on your feet. Jedi moves really fast with speed and rage (one reason i wasnt as big a fan of ctf actually), and the only way I could bring people down without weapons was to bring them down to the ground. It's a lot harder for me to kill people, and I relise how difficult it is to stop some guy with jewed out weak sabers with a team of competent people.

 

So I don't mean to come at you like you are all idiots and dont know what you are talking about, nor come at you like I don't think theres a problem with that game type. I was just observing how split the community is over kick, and pointing out that adding kick is going to split it further.

 

There are a million ways to implemnt the kick with out it sucking, and I never did see the problem with it before, and especially not now since you can roll all over the ground after you get knocked down. In fact, comeing down to it and left to my own devices, I would say put kick back in.

 

But I'm not left to my own devices, and neither are you. There needs to be something changed in your game type, but you also have to listen to the other people, and there needs to be a compramise. You arent going to change anyone's mind about it no matter how much sense you make. A scrub is a scrub.

 

Raven SHOULD have thought up some new force powers and added them to the game. What they basically did was nutralize the amount of fun I had with my favorate force powers (push and pull) and screw you all over with team energize and heal. I would think they could have come up with at liest one more, like force break or something like that that drops peoples absorb, protect or speed they have going in the area. Anything.

 

I agree with you, your solution has to come in a patch of some sort, it is a major imbalance. Kick might or might not be the answer, you have to wait for raven from that. Until then, you have to deal with it, or go back to JO until it's been dealt with in a patch. I think everyone would prefer that you stay in JA and work on new skills (disrupting the force healing /energize chain, predicting and steering the fc into waiting attacks, isolating the fc from his healers, and whatever difficult tactics it takes to bring down a competent fc on a competent team)

 

Again, I don't mean to disagree with you, and i'm no saying you guys are stupid and that the kick thing isnt an issue. Hope I've explained myself better this time.

[Kurgan]

See, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to suggest to use other weapons in this case.

 

Bear with me here...

 

I think of "Sabers Only" as a mutator (remember UT?) just like JediVsMerc or Disable Force.

 

These mutators (if you will) work great in some game types, but poorly in others.

 

For example, I tried JediVsMerc on CTF, thinking it would be great (classes in CTF right?) but it was buggy. My skin was default and I couldn't change it to a team skin. Though I would be counted as being on a team, my teammates could hurt me (even though team damage was off). Bots on my team would attack me sometimes, etc.

 

Obviously Raven just didn't intend for this to be used, so they didn't bother to iron out the bugs in it.

 

Likewise certain maps are optimized for the use of Force. Big maps with lots of places to jump to are examples of this. Without force they are tedius to navigate, its easy to get lost, and most areas are unaccessable, etc.

 

Raven favors sabers only in Duel mode, obviously, but CTF seems to be a mode that is intended for all weapons (force or no force) primarily.

 

That is the feeling I've gotten from playing it. Now don't get me wrong, JK2 was different, as the maps tended to be smaller and flatter. You had kicks and that sort of thing to help you out.

 

Kicks could be modded in sure, and I think it would be a little boring (I didn't enjoy sabers only ctf in JK2, why would I enjoy it in JA?) but it would make some people happy.

 

The point is, I don't think the game should be bashed or it should be treated like this is the only way to play (I think some folks are taking it too seriously).

 

Saying sabers take skill to use obviously has merit, but then so does pointing out that with sabers only you have to master 3 weapons, whereas with everything you have to master 12 more.

 

Sabers only in Duel = great

Sabers only in FFA = fine

Sabers only CTF = no thanks

[Comm539]

I understand, but we have to keep explaining our point of view to make it clear to LA and Raven that there is a major imbalance. As I see it, having no kick has divided the community to its extremes.

With kicks in, people were disgruntled but played on. Now we could give the choice to have kicks or not, but your still not happy. This appears selfish and inconsiderate.

You say 'people will turn on kicks becuase its easy' obviously the saber moves are now far easier to implement and do much more damage.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

I understand, but we have to keep explaining our point of view to make it clear to LA and Raven that there is a major imbalance. As I see it, having no kick has divided the community to its extremes.

With kicks in, people were disgruntled but played on. Now we could give the choice to have kicks or not, but your still not happy. This appears selfish and inconsiderate.

You say 'people will turn on kicks becuase its easy' obviously the saber moves are now far easier to implement and do much more damage.

 

Actually, you guys keep claiming that the loss of kick unbalances the game. The fact that no one can win PROVES FOR A FACT that the new gameplay is VERY BALANCED.

 

Simple logic, really...

[the weiner dog!]

g_enableKick 1/0

 

g_forceSpecialRestriction 1/0

 

g_gripLineOfSightRestriction 1/0

 

g_oldStyleRoll 1/0 (a lot of quake 3 engine based games have various "old effect cvars", actually I think even JA has a few)

 

 

that is all it would take.

 

it could even be toggle options.

 

[Comm539]

Its that easy. Call 0800 792 792 now and we'll even throw in a strafe jump cvar absoloutely free.

 

 

 

I haven't seen any complaints that dfa could be changed to not need force.

 

los grip...whats the difference between 1 and 2 points in grip? What wrong with the old grip?

 

Rolling is very infuriating now. Its pointless. You can't roll to go faster and the roll doesn't move you enough for it to be useful to avoid an attack.

 

And finally kicking. It won't be whored because of easier, more powerful saber attacks, yet it will allow ctf to be playable.

[Break_dF]

Originally posted by Comm539

Its that easy. Call 0800 792 792 now and we'll even throw in a strafe jump cvar absoloutely free.

 

 

 

I haven't seen any complaints that dfa could be changed to not need force.

 

los grip...whats the difference between 1 and 2 points in grip? What wrong with the old grip?

 

Rolling is very infuriating now. Its pointless. You can't roll to go faster and the roll doesn't move you enough for it to be useful to avoid an attack.

 

And finally kicking. It won't be whored because of easier, more powerful saber attacks, yet it will allow ctf to be playable.

 

Ban this gringo for posting phone sex numbers. And thank you sir whinner dog for answering my newb question.

[Comm539]

Originally posted by dFiend

Ban this gringo for posting phone sex numbers. And thank you sir whinner dog for answering my newb question.

 

I at least got a few kicks from that number though (poor joke i know)

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Actually, you guys keep claiming that the loss of kick unbalances the game. The fact that no one can win PROVES FOR A FACT that the new gameplay is VERY BALANCED.

 

Simple logic, really...

 

actually, your "simple logic" is flawed.

 

a balanced game favors both the offense and defense, not just one or the other. this game favors the offense (cappers) by a huge margin.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Rumor

actually, your "simple logic" is flawed.

 

a balanced game favors both the offense and defense, not just one or the other. this game favors the offense (cappers) by a huge margin.

 

To prevent someone from grabbing your flag you need defense, right? To grab someone else's flag, you need offense, right? So, if you can't defend your own flag from getting stolen and you manage to steal their flag, then what's imbalanced?

[Undisputed]

lol lol lol

 

Comm

 

Replace kicks with lightning, it does an awefully lo of (and i stress on awefully lot of) Damage lol lol

 

if not that, then bring kicks back in the game.

[Undisputed]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

To prevent someone from grabbing your flag you need defense, right? To grab someone else's flag, you need offense, right? So, if you can't defend your own flag from getting stolen and you manage to steal their flag, then what's imbalanced?

 

Dude... If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

 

gf

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by The Undisputed

Dude... If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

 

gf

 

Well, now you are contradicting your own supporters. Rumor says that offense is overpowered. Now you're telling me that it's not?

[Undisputed]

and then you might say, so both the teams have the same options so offense will be the same with the two teams...

 

 

It would be same even with kicks so whats your problem?

 

gf

 

peace,

Bryan

[the weiner dog!]

Originally posted by The Undisputed

Dude... If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense.

 

gf

 

He’s right storm, and THAT is the problem.

 

A grab is easy as hell because a capper can pretty much just swoop in and grab and get out without a scratch.

 

It is utterly impossible to do "basic" saber swings on a guy flying at 90 mph and who can jump 100 feet in the air and resists force pulls because of absorb.

 

Think of it like this:

 

I use force speed at level 3 and absorb at level 3.

 

My goal is to never be hit by you.

 

Your only weapon is fists or a stun baton.

 

Think you will ever touch me?

 

That's right; you won't even get near me unless I let you.

 

 

Now since basic swings are out let's look at the "new moves".

 

-staff kicks

 

Useless, totally useless.

 

Why?

 

Because you can't push/pull to stun the capper and halt his movement in conjunction with the kick (they must be done at almost the same time to work).

 

Now when you consider staff kicks restrict your movement and you can't do them with out coming to a complete stop, you are basically not going to hit a moving target with them because they are so restrictive on your own movement.

 

 

 

-Kata

 

 

Same as kicks, useless.

 

Sure the damage is decent but again the movement restrictions prevent them of being effective against an incredibly fast moving target.

 

 

 

So that brings us to:

 

Each team can grab in the first 30 seconds of the match, neither team can score.

 

Each team sends a pack of “returners” to get their flag back, but they all lack the same offensive means to kill a capper that the defenders did so it just turns into one long drawn out futile attempt.

 

Stalemate.