Undisputed Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Well, now you are contradicting your own supporters. Rumor says that offense is overpowered. Now you're telling me that it's not? Before you even speak, think of what you are saying, if the offense is over poerwered, doesn't it make the game unbalanced? gf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by The Undisputed Before you even speak, think of what you are saying, if the offense is over poerwered, doesn't it make the game unbalanced? gf Ha ha ha. That's funny. Before YOU even speak, think about what you're saying. You all are going on and on about how unbalanced the game is. Rumor claims that offense is overpowered. You're claiming they're not. How can two members of the same community disagree over such a fundumental difference in the argument? Tell you what. Why don't you all get together and figure out what the problem is, AGREE ON THE PROBLEM, and present a workable solution to Raven. Right now, all I am seeing is a bunch of speculation as to why the game is unbalanced. Okay, Rumor is saying that the fact that you can have a capper from each team running around with a flag must mean that offense is too much. If so, why are you unable to kill the capper? Could it somehow mean that maybe DEFENSE is too much? If so, how are both cappers able to get the flags in the first place? See where this is going? You can't have one overpowering the other because you can't use defense effectively enough to defend your flag. You lack the offensive skills to kill the capper. Don't you even see how your own whining is proving my point every single time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th4t Guy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Furion...for the game to be balanced both sides of offense and defense have to work. Which means people will be able to take the flag and get away but then returners should be able to return the flag at some point. They wont always be able to but that is because the other team has been able to return their flag before you have. This allows the other team to cap but this is what balance is in a ctf game. The offensive imbalance that is being mentioned is that of which the fc can get the flag and not be killed. The other offensive part of the game is that of the returners. But geuss what...their job cant be done because a skilled fc with an energizer and/or healer can keep him alive due to a lack moves that are powerful enough to kill an fc or moves that enable you to knock him down so your teamates can try to kill him while he is down. What i am trying to get to is that for a game to have perfect balance their has to be a way for both parts of each side to return the flag but there will be some scoring. But as of right now there is just fc's getting the flag and no one scoring/being able to return the flag enabling their side to cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 @Th4tguy: It seems to you all RIGHT NOW that there's no way for you to kill the other person. The gameplay is different. You are all learning it. When you master the intricacies of the game then you'll be in a better position to be SURE that your proposed changes are going to work. All I am seeing is people complaining that their favorite moves are gone. Well, it's a new game! It's different! If it wasn't going to be different, then WHY DID YOU BUY IT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th4t Guy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 It's different! If it wasn't going to be different, then WHY DID YOU BUY IT? Because i liked s/o ctf gameplay the way it was in JO and i figured it would still be somewhat like that in JA considering all they really added to s/o ctf was new saber styles. Plus i wanted to try siege but s/o ctf was my real reason for buying it. But they took out everything that made it possible to kill the fc. The gameplay is different. Well you are deffinately right on that part in terms of s/o ctf. At least it was possible to kill a good fc but now... When you master the intricacies of the game then you'll be in a better position to be SURE that your proposed changes are going to work. K...done...nothing much to learn just run around around swinging ur lightsabers and hope to hit them with it. And plz dont tell me to use the other moves because the odds of hitting an fc with one them are close to none unless i am playing with someone stupid enough to walk into them. Lets look at the general ways the moves were made. They were made for dueling with no force. There is no move that can get and fc on the run. Plus look at the size of the maps. Larger areas for fc to run through and more room to evade. And what about those people still using the single saber. Geuss what...not that much more to learn beside the cartweel and the kata and no fc in his right mind would run into them. Plus the moves to get people that have been knocked down are useless against an fc since you cant knock them down because only push or pull can do that and geuss what. A smart fc uses absorb so there u go. And its been proven by many people that the kick for saber staff wont knock them down because they know how to avoid it. I wont go any farther on that subject of the moves cause it will be long and boring showing u why the moves wont work. Maybe you should try s/o ctf and see for yourself. It seems to you all RIGHT NOW that there's no way for you to kill the other person. Maybe because we(being the ppl that play s/o ctf) are right in the sense that you cant kill them. No person in their right mind would want to play a 60 min 0-0 stalemate. Thats what will happen when u get 2 groups of people that understand the basics of s/o ctf together in JA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Thanks for the civil reply. I actually understand what you are saying. Believe me, I do. My duelling is completely off because JA is different than JO. However, your entire FF S/O CTF community did not figure out the only way to play the game in a week. Why should you expect to know EVERYTHING there is about the gameplay in only one week? Give it time. Asking for something now just because it isn't JO is not going to get you anywhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th4t Guy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Lets just say theoretically that maybe some of these ppl have been playing it longer than the week that it has been out so they have more than a months experience with the game... and they have more experience and know that it wont work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Th4tguy Lets just say theoretically that maybe some of these ppl have been playing it longer than the week that it has been out so they have more than a months experience with the game... and they have more experience and know that it wont work. Okay. let's theoretically say you are correct. Your implication means one of two things: 1) they are beta testers and therefore did not buy the game (I manage our beta testing program so I know what beta testers get), or 2) they are playing an illegal warez game in which case I don't give a flying fsck about their opinion. Clear enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th4t Guy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Clear enough? Not really...because now they have the full game and can still prove it it doesnt work so now their point is proven and no one has been able to come up with a solution. BTW learn the moves, and try to kill a fc in s/o ctf(you will have lots of time since the game wont end. Make sure it is an fc that knows what he/she is doing, you can tell by wether or not they try to take on ppl or run). This is just so that you will be able to experience what some people are experiencing and will understand just where we are coming from. I actually understand what you are saying. Just so u know i did read that but i think it works best when u have to experience it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Th4tguy Not really...because now they have the full game and can still prove it it doesnt work so now their point is proven and no one has been able to come up with a solution. BTW learn the moves, and try to kill a fc in s/o ctf(you will have lots of time since the game wont end. Make sure it is an fc that knows what he/she is doing, you can tell by wether or not they try to take on ppl or run). This is just so that you will be able to experience what some people are experiencing and will understand just where we are coming from. Guess what? This isn't Raven's forum! They're not even posting on Raven's forum! In any case, even IF they experienced this gameplay during a beta test and found out that the final shipping version has the same problem (and beta testers test the final build before it goes out), they're violating the terms of a beta NDA by posting it. NOW IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage To prevent someone from grabbing your flag you need defense, right? To grab someone else's flag, you need offense, right? So, if you can't defend your own flag from getting stolen and you manage to steal their flag, then what's imbalanced? k let me recruit 40 people to stand around the flag (and on top of each other) and proceed to use /amprotect (to keep anything from moving/hurting them) and that should work. right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumor Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Ha ha ha. That's funny. Before YOU even speak, think about what you're saying. You all are going on and on about how unbalanced the game is. Rumor claims that offense is overpowered. You're claiming they're not. How can two members of the same community disagree over such a fundumental difference in the argument? Tell you what. Why don't you all get together and figure out what the problem is, AGREE ON THE PROBLEM, and present a workable solution to Raven. Right now, all I am seeing is a bunch of speculation as to why the game is unbalanced. Okay, Rumor is saying that the fact that you can have a capper from each team running around with a flag must mean that offense is too much. If so, why are you unable to kill the capper? Could it somehow mean that maybe DEFENSE is too much? If so, how are both cappers able to get the flags in the first place? See where this is going? You can't have one overpowering the other because you can't use defense effectively enough to defend your flag. You lack the offensive skills to kill the capper. Don't you even see how your own whining is proving my point every single time? offense/defense have different meanings. he is talking about the act of attacking another person. in turn, he means the returners/defense going on the offensive TO THE CAPPER i am talking about the act of attacking the objective, which is the flag. thus the capper is always on offense to attack and get the flag to his flag. but he is also defending the flag he took, and therefore himself. lack the offensive skills to kill the capper? more like the offensive TOOLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Rumor lack the offensive skills to kill the capper? more like the offensive TOOLS. Skill = using the tools at your disposal If you're telling me that you have to have one tool AND ONLY ONE tool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardent Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Skill = using the tools at your disposal To some extent. In order to make use of a tool, however, it first has to be created. Once it's created, you gain skill in its use and you can make marvelous things happen. Take that tool away, but keep the same expectations for the results and you don't meet expectations. The goals of CTF remain the same. But we're suddenly short on tools. Our skills are still intact. But someone's stolen our tools. We want our tools back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Ardent The goals of CTF remain the same. But we're suddenly short on tools. Our skills are still intact. But someone's stolen our tools. We want our tools back. Your tools are still in JO. If you want JO gameplay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the weiner dog! Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I hereby ban you from this thread as well noob. New rule: Those who know nothing about game play on said topics can not post or lecture people who do play said game type. If found to be in violation of this rule Rumor will come to your house and kick you in the shins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Please, FurionStormrage, give it up. At the moment you're like someone who knows nothing about chess, but still insists on debating a chess related problem with Garri Kasparov. If Kasparov sais that every match in the new chess version 1.07 ends inevitably in a stalemate if both sides know how to play the game, it's pretty pointless for you to give him a "LOLOLOL you're arguments are weak, why don't you just eat his king with the bishop, lol?". I don't know **** about CTF. Thus it is better for me to shut up. You should also realize, that you have no idea what you are talking about. There's no point in voicing your opinion. The "l337" people here do have a point but is bringing back kick the only solution to their problem? I doubt it. It would be a quick fix but not something I'm hoping to see in other gametypes if saber damage is not upped. And no.. I don't have the game yet Personally I hate regenerating powers. I hate the 1.04 drain. I thought the 1.02 heal was a bit too much. I don't like drawn out fights. I don't like the fact that you can let someone hit you 7 times and then get back to 100hp simply by pressing a button (drain). I'd like to see people pay for their mistakes and die a lot. Now.. "How to kill a FC?" There could be other ways. How about letting the double edged saber kicks be performed in mid air? How about making sabers hurt a lot? How about nerfing (yes: NERFING) regenerating powers like team heal/energize and heal/drain making the capper's life not-so-easy? The line of sight restriction shouldn't really be a biggie in CTF, right? An absorber is not affected and a darkie can be killed in other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undisputed Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage Ha ha ha. That's funny. Before YOU even speak, think about what you're saying. You all are going on and on about how unbalanced the game is. Rumor claims that offense is overpowered. You're claiming they're not. lol you know your stupidity amazes me... If I say the offense is over-powered, what does it mean?It means I am agreeing with rumour when he says "offense is over-powered and I'm claiming that "Offense is over-powered" lol...let me explain in to you in the simplest terms possible... Originally posted by The Undisputed If your playing ctf, and both the teams have a flag then the game doesn't end lol. To end the game, you need to kill the fc which again, requires offense. And that, my friend implies to the unbalanced nature of the game, indicating to the "over-poweredness" of the Offense, you know what that means? It means I'm agreeing with Rumour when he says offense is over-powered and that I'm "claiming" that offense is over-powered geez... Once again, think about what your saying and dont just blurt out whatever your mind speaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undisputed Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Allright, for all the whining idiots who say that kicks and ptk and pt shouldnt be brought back in the game. When raven rreleases a patch to that, just dont download it, its that simple. geez play the game without the patch, just don't get yourselves embarraced by trying to convince others to something thats not logical, lets talk sensibly, is there even a possibility to kill an fc if hes running around without 5 guys pull whoring him and two guys killin him with a saber or whatever? you say guve the game some time and you'll come with new ways of strategies to kill the fc. well, why don't you spend your time strategising while raven makes a patch. And if kicks bother you that much, just dont download the patch, its that simple JUST DON"T DOWNLOAD THE PATCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar Please, FurionStormrage, give it up. At the moment you're like someone who knows nothing about chess, but still insists on debating a chess related problem with Garri Kasparov. Oh, please. You don't know jack about me. I don't even play the game with this handle. Originally posted by Luc Solar If Kasparov sais that every match in the new chess version 1.07 ends inevitably in a stalemate if both sides know how to play the game, it's pretty pointless for you to give him a "LOLOLOL you're arguments are weak, why don't you just eat his king with the bishop, lol?". I don't know **** about CTF. Thus it is better for me to shut up. You should also realize, that you have no idea what you are talking about. There's no point in voicing your opinion. The "l337" people here do have a point but is bringing back kick the only solution to their problem? I doubt it. It would be a quick fix but not something I'm hoping to see in other gametypes if saber damage is not upped. And no.. I don't have the game yet If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof with "I'm a 133+ player, leave me alone", well that convinces no one about the merits of his argument. It just happens to be an instance of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority. Personally I would like to see sabre damage upped. Why am I not moaning and whining over how low it is? Because I have a game that has the balance I want: Jedi Knight II: Outcast 1.02. Originally posted by The Undisputed Allright, for all the whining idiots who say that kicks and ptk and pt shouldnt be brought back in the game. When raven rreleases a patch to that, just dont download it, its that simple. geez Ah, yes. I simply have no right to download a patch that fixes BUGS because Raven changed gameplay because of whiners. Tell you what. Use your (and your ilk's) infinite wisdom to make a mod that adds in the gameplay you want. You'll be happy because you'll have the gameplay you want. I'll be happy because I'll have the gameplay I want. I may even download your mod to try it out. (I never did say I didn't know how to kick, BTW. I have won many a duel due to a well-timed kick...) Originally posted by The Undisputed And that, my friend implies to the unbalanced nature of the game, indicating to the "over-poweredness" of the Offense, you know what that means? It means I'm agreeing with Rumour when he says offense is over-powered and that I'm "claiming" that offense is over-powered geez... Once again, think about what your saying and dont just blurt out whatever your mind speaks But you can't kill the capper, which is OFFENSE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 What you don't understand, FurionStormrage, is that the others here are talking about the game. You know nothing about the game but insist however on arguing about totally irrelevant semantics/identical coding/whatever solely for the sake of arguing. That's why I suggested you "let it go". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof Very right...except your not giving any prof...or any alternate method to solve the problem. Your just saying "I can't handle kicks. Help meh!!!111" Besides, kicks would be toggleable so you wouldn't have to turn them on. As an 'anti-kicker' commented in another post: Many people who won't bother posting want kicks You don't speak for the whole of the community, maybe people want kicks. Even if people turn them on, Go to another server or kick them back or don't let them kick you or Spammed?! Duel sabers are spammed...go moan about them or If they're close enough to kick you, you can do a ata or butterfly or any other one kill move you want. and Why would they be spammed, when duel sabers do 4x as much damage? You have no idea about ctf gameplay and why kicks are needed. And just for your education about a gametype you evidently have a severe lack of knowledge for: When an fc gets the flag: He's attacking When an fc gets back to his base: He's defending Woah, careful I know its a tricky concept for you. Stealing the flag and surviving is now easy. This is where an unbalance lies. Killing the fc is impossible. This is the other side of the imbalance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurionStormrage Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 What YOU are not getting, and need to, is that this is a NEW GAME. If you want things exactly the way they are in JO, THEN GO PLAY JO! Simple, really. More than one person has bothered to post alternate "proofs" to you as to what to do. All I have seen is "Don't force us to use the sabrestaff for kicks". See, Raven DID put kicks in the game, but you guys won't use it! All I hear is PATCH, PATCH, PATCH! If you are going to reject every single suggestion why should anyone support you when you ask for a patch? As to the person who said: Your just saying "I can't handle kicks. Help meh!!!111" Besides, kicks would be toggleable so you wouldn't have to turn them on. I DO handle kicks. I have even kicked people to death in duels (without activating my sabre) because that person was kick-spamming. I prefer not having to deal with kick-spammers. There's more to this game than kicking. IMNSHO, the REASON why kicks are spammed in JO is because 1) they are so easy to do, and 2) they are not so easy to block. As I said to Ardent in another post: If I am holding a blade that can cut with every part of its surface and you try to kick me, you should have a consequence if my sabre manages to touch you. BUT IT DOESN'T, and that's the whole problem with kicking. I don't care if you want kick back in the game. I don't even care if you want it available in every gameplay mode. I DON'T want it implemented exactly the way it is in JO! THAT'S what my argument is. Understand that, then respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traj Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Originally posted by FurionStormrage What YOU are not getting, and need to, is that this is a NEW GAME. If you want things exactly the way they are in JO, THEN GO PLAY JO! Simple, really. We don't want things exactly the way they were in JO. We want to be able to finish a game of CTF against other good players. Or finish a FF Duel against another good player. For as much as you post, you sure don't read too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comm539 Posted September 25, 2003 Author Share Posted September 25, 2003 Its toggleable... active in s/o ctf...a mode you don't play. If you, then badly, because you can't see why kicks are needed in this type. Saber Staff kicks have been rejected with a good reason. You need to stop to activate them. You cannot pull at the same time, so you have to be infront of the fc. This is impossible when the fc has speed (you do too) and is moving the same speed as you. By all means, if you suggest a way to stop an fc that works then the complaining will stop, but you can't...and neither can anyone else. Since raven added NO NEW WAYS TO STOP A MOVING PLAYER, its logical that the old ways are needed. Ok, kicks were easy in JO. This is a different game as you so kindly, although irrelevently keep pointing out. New moves do far more damage. If they're close enough to kick you, then you can kata them. You can also spam duel sabers, roll stab, butterfly etc. There are far easier ways in JA to kill a player (and therefore a kicker), but you're not moaning about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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