How to stop an fc ("kicks" in CTF)

[traj]

Understand that, then repond.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Oh, please. You don't know jack about me. I don't even play the game with this handle.

 

And you refuse to share your handle. Which is exactly why we're willing to dismiss you ad naseum. Everyone either uses their handle as their handle here, or they've been up front about who they are.

 

If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof with "I'm a 133+ player, leave me alone", well that convinces no one about the merits of his argument. It just happens to be an instance of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority.

 

Except that Kasparov is the expert in the field. You're not. His EXPERIENCE with the situation far outweighs your ANALYSIS of it. Plato once commented "What is knowledge without the wisdom to use it?" For someone like Kasparov, the two go hand-in-hand. Not only does he have the knowledge, he has the experience from using it as well.

 

Personally I would like to see sabre damage upped. Why am I not moaning and whining over how low it is? Because I have a game that has the balance I want: Jedi Knight II: Outcast 1.02.

 

There's a cvar to increase (or decrease saber damage). Why can't we get cvars to toggle kick on/off and increase/decrease kick damage? Nothing in the code is preventing this...I can say that for certain because we could change this stuff with xMod.

 

Ah, yes. I simply have no right to download a patch that fixes BUGS because Raven changed gameplay because of whiners. Tell you what. Use your (and your ilk's) infinite wisdom to make a mod that adds in the gameplay you want. You'll be happy because you'll have the gameplay you want. I'll be happy because I'll have the gameplay I want. I may even download your mod to try it out. (I never did say I didn't know how to kick, BTW. I have won many a duel due to a well-timed kick...)

 

You hit more or less the same option everyone else does. Why should you be any different from the rest of us?

 

But you can't kill the capper, which is OFFENSE...

 

Now you're just playing with situational relevance. Get off it. Capping is referred to as capping because while it's offense, it's not offense in the sense that you're going around killing people (which is what everyone in their right mind refers to offense as in an FPS). If I said capping is overbalanced in favor of the FC right now, I'd be telling you the truth (even, in my limited experiences thus far, with guns -- or maybe I'm just too damn good at it). If I said S/O offense is so badly nerfed it's difficult to kill an FC, it'd still be the truth.

 

Luc Solar, who had heretofore not been involved in this conversation, offered you a way out, and you're just spitting into his face (and the wind). If nothing else, at least show him some respect. He only has your best interests in mind.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

Its toggleable... active in s/o ctf...a mode you don't play. If you, then badly, because you can't see why kicks are needed in this type.

 

Unfortunately, there are others of you (generic you, not you personally) that have expanded the FF S/O CTF requirement to also include FF S/O Duels and/or any gameplay mode that includes FF S/O combat. While your own request is for ONE particular gameplay, others have requested it for MULTIPLE gameplays. Thus, my problem, if implemented AS IS IN JO.

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Saber Staff kicks have been rejected with a good reason. You need to stop to activate them. You cannot pull at the same time, so you have to be infront of the fc. This is impossible when the fc has speed (you do too) and is moving the same speed as you.

By all means, if you suggest a way to stop an fc that works then the complaining will stop, but you can't...and neither can anyone else. Since raven added NO NEW WAYS TO STOP A MOVING PLAYER, its logical that the old ways are needed.

 

IF constraining the change to include FF S/O CTF, and ONLY this type, I suggest that you get an official consensus on a petition and respectfully request that LA/Raven do as you suggest. IF not constraining to ONLY one type of gameplay, we all have the right to express our opinion. Can we agree on that?

 

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Ok, kicks were easy in JO. This is a different game as you so kindly, although irrelevently keep pointing out. New moves do far more damage. If they're close enough to kick you, then you can kata them. You can also spam duel sabers, roll stab, butterfly etc. There are far easier ways in JA to kill a player (and therefore a kicker), but you're not moaning about them.

 

I am not asking for a patch, am I? There are quite a few aspects of this game that I find disconcerting (I am going from JO 1.02 to JA 1.0.x) but none of them are deal breakers for me...

[Comm539]

Ok, kicks were easy in JO. This is a different game as you so kindly, although irrelevently keep pointing out. New moves do far more damage. If they're close enough to kick you, then you can kata them. You can also spam duel sabers, roll stab, butterfly etc. There are far easier ways in JA to kill a player (and therefore a kicker), but you're not moaning about them.

 

This is a reason why. if kicks were added, they wouldn't be whored in JA.

 

And I don't play much ff s/o duel, but some./ Even so, it's clear that theres obvious problems with draining etc. Kicks were part of damage combos to take out a player before he could drain it all back. With kicks gone, its practically impossible (with 2 good players). But it would be toggleable. If so many people disliked it, then it would obviously not be turned on. If it was turned on, then 'non-kickers' would be the minority. This way, Raven can let the community decide for itself...kicks or no kicks.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Ardent

And you refuse to share your handle. Which is exactly why we're willing to dismiss you ad naseum. Everyone either uses their handle as their handle here, or they've been up front about who they are.

 

Sorry, ad naseum is in reference to a logical fallacy. You could try to look fancy by using ad infinitum, but once again you'd just look stupid.

 

The argument is there in Black and White. If you can't attack the argument, what does it matter that you don't know me? I am not attacking YOU, I am attacking your ARGUMENT. If you want to uselessly flame me then I will respond in kind.

 

 

Originally posted by Ardent

Except that Kasparov is the expert in the field. You're not. His EXPERIENCE with the situation far outweighs your ANALYSIS of it. Plato once commented "What is knowledge without the wisdom to use it?" For someone like Kasparov, the two go hand-in-hand. Not only does he have the knowledge, he has the experience from using it as well.

 

Ah, now we see the true fallacy in your argument! See, Kasparov is in a very rarified field of play. He actually may be one of the only authorities on the subject.

 

You, however, claim that there is a VERY LARGE MAJORITY of JO/JA players who are "experts" yet only five or ten of you are actually posting on these boards pretending to represent the ENTIRE FF S/O community (of which I am a part) and/or the ENTIRE FF S/O CTF community (of which I am not part). You, or others that share your belief are claiming to represent MY community, and you clearly do not.

 

 

Originally posted by Ardent

There's a cvar to increase (or decrease saber damage). Why can't we get cvars to toggle kick on/off and increase/decrease kick damage? Nothing in the code is preventing this...I can say that for certain because we could change this stuff with xMod.

 

I am not changing cvars at all. I am playing on servers where others may or may not have chosen to change cvars. I tend to want to stick to servers that are as pure as possible.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

You hit more or less the same option everyone else does. Why should you be any different from the rest of us?

 

I am not asking for a patch and you are.

 

Originally posted by Ardent

Luc Solar, who had heretofore not been involved in this conversation, offered you a way out, and you're just spitting into his face (and the wind). If nothing else, at least show him some respect. He only has your best interests in mind.

 

I don't need a way out, thank you very much. It seems like you are trying to find excuses to not master debate.

[.:Silver:.]

I'm all for bringing kick back, but pull+saber throw is rightfully gone. In JO, no matter what you did (besides run away), there was no block to a pull throw. Even if absorb is on, the pull still forces your character to perform the defensive animation, which opens you up for the saber throw.

 

Now, I would be for having pull throw back only if absorb allowed you to maintain a defensive stance. This would be a nice compromise for both sides.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

I hereby ban you from this thread as well noob.

 

New rule:

 

Those who know nothing about game play on said topics can not post or lecture people who do play said game type.

 

If found to be in violation of this rule Rumor will come to your house and kick you in the shins.

 

 

don't forget having my 3 legged labrodor bring her 16 pups for you to feed by hand, and she will proceed to fart in your bed and living areas. gg.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Skill = using the tools at your disposal

 

If you're telling me that you have to have one tool AND ONLY ONE tool...

 

more like the specific tool that is in question sets us up to use the REST of our tools (minus rage+dfa)

[Rumor]

Originally posted by .:Silver:.

I'm all for bringing kick back, but pull+saber throw is rightfully gone. In JO, no matter what you did (besides run away), there was no block to a pull throw. Even if absorb is on, the pull still forces your character to perform the defensive animation, which opens you up for the saber throw.

 

Now, I would be for having pull throw back only if absorb allowed you to maintain a defensive stance. This would be a nice compromise for both sides.

 

there are many ways to counter/block pt

[traj]

Originally posted by .:Silver:.

I'm all for bringing kick back, but pull+saber throw is rightfully gone.

 

Pull throw is still in the game if I'm not mistaken.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Oh, please. You don't know jack about me. I don't even play the game with this handle.

 

 

 

If Kasparov says something about a move and I can use a mathematical calculation to prove that he can indeed win the game without it being a stalemate, simply dismissing my proof with "I'm a 133+ player, leave me alone", well that convinces no one about the merits of his argument. It just happens to be an instance of the logical fallacy called Appeal to Authority.

 

Personally I would like to see sabre damage upped. Why am I not moaning and whining over how low it is? Because I have a game that has the balance I want: Jedi Knight II: Outcast 1.02.

 

 

 

Ah, yes. I simply have no right to download a patch that fixes BUGS because Raven changed gameplay because of whiners. Tell you what. Use your (and your ilk's) infinite wisdom to make a mod that adds in the gameplay you want. You'll be happy because you'll have the gameplay you want. I'll be happy because I'll have the gameplay I want. I may even download your mod to try it out. (I never did say I didn't know how to kick, BTW. I have won many a duel due to a well-timed kick...)

 

 

 

But you can't kill the capper, which is OFFENSE...

 

going by your attitude and your stance on the issue, you obviously don't play it competitively. nuff said. we don't need to know your gaming handle.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

What YOU are not getting, and need to, is that this is a NEW GAME. If you want things exactly the way they are in JO, THEN GO PLAY JO! Simple, really.

 

More than one person has bothered to post alternate "proofs" to you as to what to do. All I have seen is "Don't force us to use the sabrestaff for kicks". See, Raven DID put kicks in the game, but you guys won't use it! All I hear is PATCH, PATCH, PATCH!

 

If you are going to reject every single suggestion why should anyone support you when you ask for a patch?

 

As to the person who said:

 

Your just saying "I can't handle kicks. Help meh!!!111" Besides, kicks would be toggleable so you wouldn't have to turn them on.

 

I DO handle kicks. I have even kicked people to death in duels (without activating my sabre) because that person was kick-spamming. I prefer not having to deal with kick-spammers. There's more to this game than kicking.

 

IMNSHO, the REASON why kicks are spammed in JO is because 1) they are so easy to do, and 2) they are not so easy to block. As I said to Ardent in another post: If I am holding a blade that can cut with every part of its surface and you try to kick me, you should have a consequence if my sabre manages to touch you. BUT IT DOESN'T, and that's the whole problem with kicking.

 

I don't care if you want kick back in the game. I don't even care if you want it available in every gameplay mode. I DON'T want it implemented exactly the way it is in JO! THAT'S what my argument is. Understand that, then respond.

 

then what is with the saber passing through your body and it not doing any damage with a high-damage swing? or a dfa going right through you and not doing damage?

 

i don't see the problem in a saber not doing massive ammounts of damage to you when you are kicking, especially when its not being swung AND THEREFORE ONLY DOING IDLE SABER DAMAGE. i mean HELLO people where are your brains? idle saber does 1 damage. same if you are kicking or you walk up behind them and hold your saber into them.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Rumor

then what is with the saber passing through your body and it not doing any damage with a high-damage swing? or a dfa going right through you and not doing damage?

 

I am not having this problem on LAN play.

 

Originally posted by Rumor

i don't see the problem in a saber not doing massive ammounts of damage to you when you are kicking, especially when its not being swung AND THEREFORE ONLY DOING IDLE SABER DAMAGE. i mean HELLO people where are your brains? idle saber does 1 damage. same if you are kicking or you walk up behind them and hold your saber into them.

 

Yes, and idle sabre damage DOES NOT HAPPEN AT ALL during a kick. As far as the kick is concerned, the player does not even hold a weapon. Also, please understand that I am playing JO 1.02 where the idle sabre damage is well above 1 HP/sec.

[Comm539]

It appears mor and more like your someone who runs around flailing a saber screaming boo hoo when you get kicked.

Try walking and swinging a saber as they kick you. They die before the third knockdown kick.

Honestly, if you took the time to learn how to inflict and counter kick tactics, there wouldn't be a problem.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

It appears mor and more like your someone who runs around flailing a saber screaming boo hoo when you get kicked.

 

I have already stated that I have kicked people to death in duels with my sabre deactivated; these self-same people were kick-spamming. If I don't know how to get away from a kick, exactly how am I able to kill them when my sabre is deactivated and they are just trying to kick me with their sabres on? It seems to me like you have a comprehension problem...

 

Originally posted by Comm539

Honestly, if you took the time to learn how to inflict and counter kick tactics, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

Honestly, if you took the time to realize that what you wanted was JO, why'd you buy this one?

[Comm539]

I never said I wanted jo...take the time to comprehend that I want JA with kicks added to s/o ctf only.

 

oh btw, I kill kick spammers with a stun baton and harsh language. Oh hell, gtg, my pig flew off again. We can all claim things in a forum.

[traj]

Originally posted by FurionStormrage

Honestly, if you took the time to realize that what you wanted was JO, why'd you buy this one? [/b]

 

I'll say it one last time for the cheap seats.

 

WE JUST DON'T WANT FF DUELS AND FF/SO CTF GAMES TO END IN STALEMATES. THERE IS NO WAY TO KILL SOMEONE GOOD WHO DOESN'T WANT TO BE KILLED IN FF/SO CTF OR FF DUELS.

 

Please read that 50 times Furion so I don't have to type it again.

[FurionStormrage]

Originally posted by Comm539

I never said I wanted jo...take the time to comprehend that I want JA with kicks added to s/o ctf only.

 

oh btw, I kill kick spammers with a stun baton and harsh language. Oh hell, gtg, my pig flew off again. We can all claim things in a forum.

 

Ah, yes. ANYONE can claim ANYTHING in a forum, but the moment you start claiming that SOMEONE ELSE did or is doing something without proof is libel.

[Comm539]

generic 'your'

[HFB_Muerte]

I think you've all pretty much exhausted this topic...let it go.

 

I keep hearing "you cant kill an FC that doesnt want to be killed". If the FC is THAT good even kicks won't get to them, so whats the fuggin point? (hint: there isn't one..it's moot)

 

Were there NEVER any stalemates in JO CTF? If both teams had great FC's didnt the game come to a standstill?. Do you mean to propose that kick was such a HUGE part of strategy that it makes or breaks the game? I hardly think that Raven put kick in JO just to make S/O CTF viable.

 

Personally I dont give a crap whether they bring kick back or not, but you all really need to work on some new strategies rather than waste your time here.

 

I played some S/O CTF just to see what you're all talking about. Granted it wasn't the "uber-elite, I'm so much better than you crowd", but I caught AND killed the FC many times. I dont think they wanted to be caught either, because they would keep trying to run and avoid me...so I must be missing something about that whole argument (seriously..being able to avoid players is not an elite skill). BTW the only force I used was push/pull.

 

I know it won't make a bit of difference because you are all so tied up in the JO play style...but I guarantee there are ways to have good so/ff/ctf matches...you're all just too dependant on tactics that no longer work.

[traj]

haha

 

You ask us to let it go, then make a bunch of assinine comments about a game you know nothing about, then flame us. Nice.

 

This has been explained WAY too many times. I won't do it again. If you took the time to read the posts around here, you would know why the games end in STALEMATES.

 

This is exhausted though, you're right about that.

[Rumor]

Originally posted by HFB_Muerte

I think you've all pretty much exhausted this topic...let it go.

 

I keep hearing "you cant kill an FC that doesnt want to be killed". If the FC is THAT good even kicks won't get to them, so whats the fuggin point? (hint: there isn't one..it's moot)

 

Were there NEVER any stalemates in JO CTF? If both teams had great FC's didnt the game come to a standstill?. Do you mean to propose that kick was such a HUGE part of strategy that it makes or breaks the game? I hardly think that Raven put kick in JO just to make S/O CTF viable.

 

Personally I dont give a crap whether they bring kick back or not, but you all really need to work on some new strategies rather than waste your time here.

 

I played some S/O CTF just to see what you're all talking about. Granted it wasn't the "uber-elite, I'm so much better than you crowd", but I caught AND killed the FC many times. I dont think they wanted to be caught either, because they would keep trying to run and avoid me...so I must be missing something about that whole argument (seriously..being able to avoid players is not an elite skill). BTW the only force I used was push/pull.

 

I know it won't make a bit of difference because you are all so tied up in the JO play style...but I guarantee there are ways to have good so/ff/ctf matches...you're all just too dependant on tactics that no longer work.

 

 

btw you played a newb. you won't get close enough to land anything in this game the majority of the time.

 

JO the cappers were just as good as they are now, and so's the returners, BUT the returners have no effective tools in JA. all of the capper's tools are still in tact.

[Ardent]

Originally posted by Rumor

JO the cappers were just as good as they are now, and so's the returners, BUT the returners have no effective tools in JA. all of the capper's tools are still in tact.

 

We got more actually. Not going to mention anything, but I definitely have four or five new tricks up my sleeve in JA.

 

Absorb has lost a bit of its ubiquitous goodness, but Protect is now ridiculously effective based on the few times I've toyed with it.

 

Rumor's point remains, however; returners and, perhaps even moreso defenders, are missing one of the vital links in their arsenal chain.

[Kurgan]

I was thinking this over the other night (idle thoughts) and wondering logically how to solve your problem.

 

I was thinking, if, (as you say) it's impossible to kill a flag carrier using conventional means in Sabers Only (I assume meaning gripping them, Lightning, saber throw, etc) because they have "infinite mana and health" (due to people energizing and healing them constantly) why not do this:

 

 

Since your kicks are gone, compensate by having your FC attacking team employ similar tactics.

 

Constantly feed your attacker mana and health so he never dies and never stops hitting the FC. Thus somebody has to screw up and that's when it hits.

 

It's like a tennis match anyway, so why not just play it like that?

 

And with SaberDamageScale jacked up to 2 or 3 (or even higher) that means that even with all the mana in the world you can't possibly heal the guy fast enough to compensate for all that damage (or even dare I say one hit kills). Protect or no Protect...

 

There are of course other tricks to use in JA, like the rolling stabs (you say rolling is slow? combine it with speed or Rage), wall run (to get ahead of somebody), katas, staff kicks, etc.

 

In another thread folks were complaining about how "weak" they thought the single saber was vs. dual or saberstaff then they discovered the katas. I know what you're going to say, they "suck" because they miss?

 

Well if you can jump and land in the right spot you can cut up three people at once with it. Sure if you miss you're in big trouble (he'll get away) but that's where practice comes in. It doesn't have to be a "flashy but useless move."

 

Anyway, just some suggestions here.

 

PS: Are fists still usable in Sabers Only (give yourself zero points on Saber Attack)? I never thought to check...

[Comm539]

Thats normally what happens, in JK2 aswell. Only 2 need energise, the rest drain, or just a healer and the attackers are pretty well safe.

However, the problem lies with actually stopping the fc in the first place. Kicks could ground and fc, but now he's free to run forever, with the attackers chasing him. Besides, its not really fun to pointlessly chase an fc every map, hoping that he's eventually slip up.