Game feels rushed? (Spoilers)

[Emon]

I can't think of any area where JO is better than JA, JA is like what JO should have been.

 

The level design is way better, I couldn't stand JO's, especially the Doom Comm level, that was ridiculous! The AI is a lot better, I don't see what's so horrible. My main problem is that grunts like stormtroopers stand there while I smite them with my saber, I had no problems with the Jedi AI. They fall off sometimes, but they're supposed to, I notice it happens a lot less on the harder difficulty levels, because AI scales with difficulty in both games.

 

I sort of agree about the filler feel of the tier missions, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it could have been, and a lot of them were just plain fun. I don't think JO had a single level better than most of JA's.

 

I haven't played much MP yet, but I used the new Force stuff all the time. Edit: Detty explained the hit detection error to me, I misunderstood people's posts.

 

Edit: Oh, and I do think it was somewhat rushed, but I blame LEC again. Raven's other games never had the same problems JO/JA does, problems yes, but not the same ones. SoFII I found to be mostly bugless after the patches, it was really solid. I think Raven can fix most of the issues in a patch or too, I just hope LEC doesn't pull the plug on us like they did last time.

[yoda_alex]

Good point rSloan76 about chaining the tier levels together to produce a more cohesive stroyline. I think someone else mentioned that you could do the same thing with the tram level/coruscant level. I'm sure you could do the same to other levels (with sitable modifactions).

 

I personally wouldn't mind a bit of a gap between JA and the next game in the series. With all the new engines about to come out (Half-Life 2, Doom 3, and Unreal 2 already out) I think developers will have to get to grips with the new technology before they can turn it to the Star Wars universe.

 

This could actually be the problem with JA. It came out only a year after JO so I think Raven were rushing to get it out before games like Half-life 2 hit the stores and made the Q3 engine look obselete. But of course waiting would have put JA back by at_least_a couple of years and probably 3-4 years.

 

 

 

btw, how do you quote other people's text?

[rageman]

I've sat and read all the comments in this thread and there are some really good points made. The game is fun, but I too was dissappointed in "kill em all" focus of the game. But im pretty upbeat about this, I see a single player system here that allows mission selection, therefore we can create more "realistic" Jedi adventures, similar to those performed by the Jedi in the new prequals. Its true that the customisation makes it difficult to add a back story to the character, but it can be overcome. Get a gripping story line that revolves around the fate of a planet, or race or whatever and you have a minicampaign ready to go. Implement whatever puzzles and plot lines into the missions and we'll have something we can get our teeth into, all in the line of duty for the Knights of the New Republic. This game is infinatly expandable, we just need to get some guys together with the talent to do it. And there are already peaple out there doing that. If you have a good idea for a mini campaign, write it down, post it up somewhere. If you have good ideas for puzzles write them down and let the map makers know. You dont need 3D and level design skills to make the game better, if you have talent pass it on to those who can implement them.

[dem2k]

I agree with most what has been said. I think one of the key factors is what has been stated. The go in a room kill everything style is old now. A much refurbish aproach is needed.

 

They need to focus on what being a Jedi is about from George Lucas point of view. They weren't just a powerhouse, able to handle everything that was thrown at them. They handled situations on what they thought was right. Just for a random example out of my head. picture a hanger full of stormtroopers guarding a Jedi's only escape route. Going in guns blazing is an option. Or would a Jedi take a more inovated more wise choice? By finding something to distract or draw the attention of the guards?

 

From what i gather from the movies. Jedi are put in extreme or average situations in which they can handle. I would not expect to see Obi-wan take on the entire clone army in one big battleground.

 

As for the Reborn. Ok it was a good idea it worked well for Jedi Outcast. But its getting old very fast, they were probably only added to fill in a hole. Fighting Reborn after Reborn isn't the way to go imho. There needs to be more unique sith characters involed. Ones with a background, unique fighting style as what has been said. When you're fighting jerec on JK you just know that you are fighting one badass Sith. When you finally cleave off his head you feel good that you just killed one badass, all adding to the experiance.

 

Overall:

 

A bit more realism is what the Jedi Knight series needs. It would be very hard to achieve on a Quake3 based engine.

[Kataarn]

I agree with the majority of the people here....JA is unpolished, and not filled.

 

I managed to finish it in about 10 hours....and honestly, I felt jipped. Fights were too easy, the AI is just retarded (let's run off the side of the ramp into a hot pool of lava!), and some of the levels are just pointless.

 

That being said, there are a number of levels I do like:

 

BOTH Rancor levels

The Jawa Level

Most of the story levels with the exception of Hoth.

 

However....the number of bugs also highly irritates me....the door on the level where you have to disarm all those bombs in the power facility....at the end when you're trying to get out....IT DOESN'T WORK!!!%@!$#!

 

Anyway....I'll stop ranting now and wait for the patch.

[Emon]

What I don't get is how the game has so many very nice, professional touches and then some parts manage to suck.

 

The dust effects when you threw someone into a wall or landed the right way were really cool, and the walking sounds were very nice. Ignoring the buginess of the dynamic glow (almost certantly will be patched, it's an OpenGL kind of issue, not entirely Raven's fault), was very well done in terms of both visual quality and speed, at least on my system. The new distortion effects like on push/pull and the cloaked guys just blew me away, that was totally unexpected for me. Many of the levels are designed really well, and most all of them, while not being a marvel of Q3 mapping, just look and feel simply good. Not incredible, but they are just good. Same goes with the new per-pixel dynamic lighting effect, that shocked me, it's so incredibly cool!

 

Then there's some stuff that's just half-assed. I don't get it at all. The ragdoll needs work (patch we can hope). I like it as it is, over none at all, because I personally think a bad death position without the ragdoll would be even worse. It's also really cool the way bodies can by shot and can move through the air being totally limp. I mean, we aren't, or I'm not, asking for too much on this. Just get rid of the bugs. Fix the collision problems, fix the bone constraint problems, and make it so a body doesn't hold onto a ledge with a fingernail.

 

Then there's the various MP gameplay issues, which, when you think about it, is rather understandable, many games experience the same thing, and many times they are patched to perfection. Will JA? Maybe. We have to see. If not, the game is much better than JO for modding, it offers developers a greater base, so I expect to see the game leave a good while at least with mods.

[Darth Stryke]

I agree with many of the points that have been said. However, I really liked every aspect of Jedi Outcast and I thought that was just as worthy of an addition as the first 3. With that said, Jedi Academy just did not feel right. As soon as I finished the SP game, I didn't care about it anymore. I found it more enjoyable to load up different sp and mp levels and remove all npcs with the npc kill function and then place my own enemies and neutral npcs so that I could have it more like the other games. I also, for some reason, prefer to play as kyle rather than Jaden. But it is also fun to make levels where you play as an imperial or a dark jedi or Boba Fett and place good npcs to fight. The biggest 2 problems with JA are the lack of neutral npcs like civilians and the extremely poor distribution of enemies. At most, there should be perhaps 1 or 2 saber-wielding enemies in a level. No more.

[Emon]

The character customization is cool in that you can be anyone you want, which is fitting for a game based around the Jedi Academy.

 

For some reason, I didn't get the same feeling I did in JO when I encountered dark Jedi. In JO, I was like, "whoa...", because it felt special and sort of rare when you found them. But that's probably because I'm so used to it.

[Deadeye]

They need to focus on what being a Jedi is about from George Lucas point of view. They weren't just a powerhouse, able to handle everything that was thrown at them. They handled situations on what they thought was right. Just for a random example out of my head. picture a hanger full of stormtroopers guarding a Jedi's only escape route. Going in guns blazing is an option. Or would a Jedi take a more inovated more wise choice? By finding something to distract or draw the attention of the guards?

 

I agree completely. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I think that powers like lighning should be removed from the game.

 

I rarely use it b/c it's not fun to use. It's just a force field of death.

I don't want my character to be a Jedi Master. I want to play as a Jedi Knight. A warrior. I think that to produce force lightning takes serious concentration (and anger i.e. darkside). You shouldn't be able to just whip it out while in a duel. I would like to see the next game have some stealthier elements, or really just a need for the player to plan their attack. In JO and JA, there's no stopping you. You are by far the most powerful character in the game. Stormtroopers, and most other enemies are worthless to you. They pose no threat at all. Even the reborn are kinda weak, although I do enjoy dueling against them. I want to be able to be overwhelmed by the enemy even if I am a Jedi. Give me a good reason to avoid combat b/c it's too dangerous. It makes the action all that more enticing.

 

Look at it from a lightside standpoint. The lightsaber is not a weapon with which to deal out death, and leave stormtrooper parts in your wake. It's a defensive weapon. The only time you whip it out is to block laser bolts, or to duel with other saber-weilders. Now I'm not suggesting we cut out the killing of stormtroopers. All I'm saying is make the lightsabers' uses more enticing. I want to have to put it down, and run, jump, sneak, and plan. Then when the time is right, ignite that thing and go to town. Thats why the duel btw Obi-wan and Darth Vader in ANH was so great. Now we see what these lightsabers are for! Same thing in the Phatom Menace. You get a taste for its power through out the movie when they wack away at droids, then they tease you with the short duel with Maul and Qui-Gon in the dessert. Then in the end it all comes down to the big duel.

Re-creating that feeling would be very important.

 

Recall playing JK1 If you chose lightside, you had to be a bit more carefull in combat against mulitple foes. You didn't really have much of an offense, but you had great defence with the lightsaber. As a darksider, you had force throw -which we need to have back!! lightning, destruction, deadly sight. You were a death-dealing uber warrior. But when it came down to the duels with the 7 Dark Jedi, you were matched up pretty evenly. You had force powers to counter each other. It felt great!

 

So in the ideal dream game, there would be overwheming odds for the player to successfully go in guns blazing, and it can be done by both light and dark side. But dark side would have a much easier time with it. A lightsider, would be more prone to taking the less destructive and more rightious path around all the bad guys.

 

"The dark side is quicker, more seductive" -Yoda. So make it like that damnit! The game would have so much fullfilling reaplayabilility. Just like in JK, the restrictions of lightside, and darkside powers, made playing each side of the force a completely different game! JA was supposed to give you that darkside/lightside choice. Well Raven. You wanna know why LEC put that in the original JK? For replayability! You guys just put it in there for no reason at all. It's only 2 levels away from the end. The replayability is only a matter of loading up that level and playing the last hour again. Woo Hoo! great fun. It's almost insulting to us how ill-concieved that implimentation was. It was just about worthless.

 

Simply put, you give the player a choice btw two sets of weapons(force powers), one set very destructive and offensive, and another set very passive and defensive -stealthy. Restrict the player to one set of those weapons at some point not too far into the game. -Whal la! Two games in one! Is that so hard?

 

-Ok sorry, that was harsh, I just got a little carried away. But I don't think I'm wrong here.

 

we just need to get some guys together with the talent to do it. And there are already peaple out there doing that. If you have a good idea for a mini campaign, write it down, post it up somewhere. If you have good ideas for puzzles write them down and let the map makers know. You dont need 3D and level design skills to make the game better, if you have talent pass it on to those who can implement them.

 

In another post that I started about modding JA along these aforementioned lines, I did post a design document that outlines the way the Hutt level should have been. Anybody wanna impliment this? Check it out, it's the really long post by me.

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112829

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by yoda_alex

btw, how do you quote other people's text?

 

That's simple...just click on the button attached to someone's post. Like I just did.

 

And in the interests of keeping this important thread alive...I've read all the other posts. Excellent points raised again, and I can see many of us are discerning gameplayers. We know what we like, and what we don't like.

 

Jedi Academy really suffers in a major way from giving us lots of different environments to explore...but then it fails to show us the native flora and fauna, and the variety of aliens even among the enemies you fight is considerably sparse. What do you mean? I can hear you ask. There are quite a few different aliens in Jedi Academy. But the simple fact is that we've seen most of them before.

 

In Every Dark Forces/Jedi Knight game so far, we always meet these...

 

Imperials (from Stormtroopers to officers)

Grans

Rodians

Trandoshans

Tusken Raiders (Grave Tuskens in JK/MotS, standard Tuskens in JA)

Probe Droids

Interrogation Droids

 

...in every single game - and they are always enemies (except for a couple of Rodian Padawans in JA who helped you in the last few levels).

 

In Jedi Outcast and now Jedi Academy, we have Weequays (which did also appear in MotS), but most of the other antagonists (apart from the brief appearance by the Noghri and Assassin Droids) are simply human. All of the Dark Jedi, with the exception of Alora (and Desann in JO), are human.

 

The Jawas offer some very welcome variety in the NPC lineup, but at the end of the day, they only appear on one level.

 

There is something fundamentally wrong with this picture in light of all the SW races we know about. There is probably, in fact, more variety of alien in the Mos Eisley Cantina in ANH, than we've seen in this whole series of games.

 

For any future Jedi Knight games, that simply has to change. If I see the same line-up of enemies in another sequel, I'll probably throw a fit. The ingredients have gone stale, and we need something fresh.

 

Even MotS managed to introduce some Ithorians, Noghri (again, not much like their actual description), Vornskrs, Swamp Wampas etc., even poisonous flowers, as enemies.

 

Where are the Mon Calamari, the Quarren, the Bith, the Talz, Sullustans, Devaronians...and all the others? And that's just from the Original Trilogy - there is a wealth of other races depicted in the Prequel Trilogy.

 

Why can't we have Wookiee bandits associated with underhanded Bith and a questionable Mon Cal? Why no Bothan spies, some working for their own ends, who might offer some assistance?

 

The more I think about it, the more I wish they would simply wipe the slate clean. Forget the Imperial Remnant altogether and focus on a huge crime syndicate bent on some outlandish scheme, that may not necessarily involve the fate of the known universe, but would have a major impact on a few key planets.

 

But I digress, and I'm probably rambling...

 

Going back to Jedi Academy, and what it already contains in terms of levels and enemies...it would have been far more interesting (to me at least) if the Imperial Remnant had also been actively trying to work against the Cultists, rather than with them. When you think about it, most of the Imperials were leary of the Force, and would much rather have focused on the next big super-weapon, rather than subject themselves to the rule of yet another Sith Lord wannabe...

 

The mercenary/smuggler/Crime Lord angle could have been worked into a far more compelling sub-plot - and how good it would have been to simply have to follow their trail in the early stages of the game to find out what they were stealing, why and for whom... They make a far better ally for the Cultists, while the Imperials should have been working against them.

 

How refreshing it would have been for you to encounter an Imperial agent, and teaming up with them to work against a common foe...and then you are simply betrayed and clapped in irons, and have to fight your way free of the Imperials too. What if that man on Dosuun (the nutter with the conc. rifle) had actually been an ambitious Imperial General fighting the cultists - but who holds just as much hate for any Force user... He reaches out from his stronghold to try and curb the cultists wherever he finds them. And what if he'd outfitted his troops with cortosis armour, and Ysalamiri to protect them against the Force-wielding menaces of the universe?

 

Then the idea of an Interdictor Cruiser taking down merchant ships seems more in context. Grounding a cultist supply ship...or a ship suspected of carrying Jedi...

 

The tiered missions could have been strengthened so much by interweaving strong sub-plots, and given a 'theme' for each tier. A smuggler/crime theme for one tier, a Remnant theme for a second tier...and the Cultist menace for the third tier. And clues dotted around each of the levels, that hint at what will come to light in the other levels. Like learning about a Rancor stolen some time ago from one of the locations...and it turns up as the mutant freak in another level in the same tier.

 

I just feel like taking the jumbled jigsaw puzzle of JA and shaking it up, and watching all the pieces fall into place so I can see the full picture in all it's glory. Instead, I'm looking at a jigsaw with a few pieces missing - and that's damned annoying. :/

[Emon]

Great post. I think you're right, about everything.

 

I've always wanted to do a single player project for one of the JK games, and do something really good, like what you're talking about. I'm focusing on MP for JA, because I just can't do what I want for SP, comparing the engine to stuff like Source.

 

Which reminds me, does anyone know if Raven would mind the ripping of textures/models/sounds for HL2? Myself and a friend of mine both think it would be sweet to do an SW project on HL2's Source engine, but I wouldn't get anywhere without the media. And more specifically, I wouldn't want like LEC sueing me or anything.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Emon

Which reminds me, does anyone know if Raven would mind the ripping of textures/models/sounds for HL2? Myself and a friend of mine both think it would be sweet to do an SW project on HL2's Source engine, but I wouldn't get anywhere without the media. And more specifically, I wouldn't want like LEC sueing me or anything.

 

I think they would mind a great deal. That's not to say that there is no possibility of a Star Wars mod in another engine though.

 

You only have to look at the 'Troopers' Star Wars mod for the Unreal Tournament 2003 engine, which to my mind has now set a precedent. They went to Lucasarts, and asked for their permission to recreate Star Wars assets that would be used in the mod - and they were granted permission to do so.

 

Whether this has anything to do with the fact Lucasarts is itself using Unreal tech to make a Star Wars game, I don't know - but I would imagine that is a strong possibility.

 

So in those terms, I think it might be more feasible for you to look at the Unreal tech as a platform for developing an original Star Wars concept, because when Republic Commando is released, people are going to be modding Star Wars stuff out of their ears for it.

 

So you never know...asking sometimes reaps great rewards...

[Emon]

Originally posted by StormHammer

I think they would mind a great deal.

 

I feel there's a fairly high chance they might not, because I know they don't have any problem with using Raven assets in Raven games, but I am not aware of anything outside of that scope.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Emon

I feel there's a fairly high chance they might not, because I know they don't have any problem with using Raven assets in Raven games, but I am not aware of anything outside of that scope.

 

But you are forgetting the fundamental issue. Jedi Academy is Lucasarts' game - Raven simply developed it on their behalf.

 

To Lucasarts you must look for answers, yes...mmmm...

 

And I think we've taken this a little too far off topic now...

[Emon]

Right, I would have to ask LEC. I'm not sure if LEC actually claims rights on the entire game and all its contents, or just gets to publish it and a few other bogus legal rights. The artwork may very well belong to Raven.

[Archonon]

So I've been reading as much of these posts as I can to more or less get a feel for what many people feel was a strength or weakness in JA and I suppose I will put in my own opinion.

 

I'm going to focus primarily on SP since this is what I bought the game for and frankly what I have the most experience with. I've played all of the games in the DF/JK series, I like all of them and completed all except for the original. Now despite there being some elements which I preferred in games that came before, as a whole I have found JA to be my favorite.

 

About what I would have liked to have seen in JA I can pretty much only mention what countless others mentioned here. After playing STV: Elite Force I loved the format of squad based missions and friendly/neutral npcs which not only conversed with you but you could interact and affect in the story itself. In EF1 members of your squad could be killed randomly in missions, affected by your gameplay (except a few scripted exceptions). I also enjoyed how the character would go back to the ship in between missions and could walk around, talk and learn more about his/her companions. This is something I felt that JA had the perfect opportunity of integrating due to its mission-tier system. I would have liked to see more depth to the character of Jaden in his relationships with fellow students/teachers as well as growth as a person/Jedi. And I would have loved to have seen friendships and even a romatic relationship developed into the main plot or sub-plot to show different dimensions to the character. I know JA is primarily a FPS but EF managed to pull this off at least to an extent which could have been expanded upon in JA.

 

Level design I liked much more than its predecessors. I can't really say I did not like any of the levels really, only that I found some of them too small and confined. Of course the perfect example for me here is Mos Eisley and my fave SW world, Coruscant. I'm grateful they made the effort to put in this place at all, but my two concerns that made the level not feel as it should was the architecture looked nothing like Coruscant and that it was confined only to a very small section of ledge jumping. I would have wanted to see areas such as the old Jedi Temple (which I always thought should have been reimplemented as the Jedi home as opposed to Yavin), the Senate or in the very least just ground level similar to AOTC and have only a fraction of it in the high area instead of it all. Still in the most part I did like the levels, even the little of Coruscant there is, pretty much. I was glad to see partially dynamic levels such as the sand burrower, rancors, Boba Fett, and the few others which were more than only hack, shoot and slash. Still, in comparing with those that came before I really like the new ones better. I never liked the Nar Shaddaa levels in the previous games, I hated running around catwalks and buillding ledges when you're supposed to be in a massive metropolis it just felt wrong to me unlike what I have seen from Taris in KOTOR, even the old Ep1 game gave me a greater sense of a city in the Mos Espa mission than any one of the JK games with Nar Shaddaa. The old games also focused way too much in Imperial bases, trash compactors and starship levels for me; I suppose my like for ruins, temples and citadels is to be blamed on LOTR since I associate the Jedi more with those types of characters than space warriors.

 

I will also go against the tide in the storyline. While I do think that JA's storyline should have been more detailed and have more depth, I liked it far more than the previous ones with DF a close second. DF I liked in the manner that was simple and to the point, mercenary helping Rebellion against Empire and its new secret weapon and meets Jabba along the way. I am not however too fond of JK1 and JO's story because they implement the Force as something someone can just pick and insert into someone else or themselves. The whole Valley of the Jedi thing was really disappointing to me and of course the same thing applies for the Reborn and even more the Shadowtroopers. Though I disliked this as it was started in JK1, by JO I had just accepted it which is why by JA it doesn't really bother as much as before. I do liked the idea of the scepter that could resucitate Marka Ragnos and the revival the Sith Empire, I suppose because of the light parallel to the Ring and Sauron in LOTR, I found it much more interesting than Jerec wanting a Valley with Force power or Desann's experiments to create the perfect dark force user. And I'll also admit that I enjoyed fighting the Sith Warriors in JA all the time because that is precisely what I wanted in this game. I was interested in fighting as a Jedi against opponents of equal and greater ability. I've always loved the idea of having a Sith army in modern eras in SW to counter the new Jedi, even in the movies themselves I've never felt there was a real opponent to the Jedi except the occassional Sith Lord; despite being good to fight sometimes stormtroopers, mercs and droids just seem too uneven a match. But then again the way I would have wanted it is an actual Jedi army vs Sith army, not Jedi player vs Sith army, but again that's just me.

 

The villains in JK as a whole have been generally disappointing for me. I have no idea who the villain was in DF since I never finished it, I think some Imperial commander; but I really hate Jerec and his group. The characters were way too over the top for my taste, the Twi'Lek character just made me laugh at how stupid he was than frighten as an enemy, Yun was a character I also dislike a lot he reminds me of Rosh, Maw was terrible a guy still alive sliced in half? Come on, I bet Maul wished he'd have that guy's doctor, Sariss and Tavion had about the same effect for me, I just wish Tavion was not dressed like an indian. Desann I did not like either but more mainly because of being a T-Rex, that was just not right. Jerec was ok, but he was not menacing and for me mostly lame. JA's was not much better in this department either but I found Marka Ragnos a potentially good villain, especially having to duel in his tomb with his statue and stuff, but only if Marka had been resucitated into physical form instead of going into Tavion would have this worked for me. I look forward to seeing Malak and Bandon in KOTOR to see if they turned out more as I'd hoped for SW villains. As to seeing mostly humans as villains, I partially agree but for the most part in the movies the majority of the villains were human, outside of Jabba's group, and at least I found more variety in creatures in JA such as the Rancor, Wampa, Sand Borrower, Howlers, etc still I know what you mean.

 

MP wise all I will say is that I wish there had been a similar system as Forcemod 2. I wish Jedi were strictly that with sabers and Force powers while other classes such as soldiers and mercs didn't have Force but had gadgets and blasters and such, or in the very least have an option to have something like that in MP, I hate seeing Stormtroopers and Boba Fett with Force powers and sabers.

 

I apologize for such a long post but I had plenty of catching up to do with so many other comments in this thread.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Archonon

I apologize for such a long post but I had plenty of catching up to do with so many other comments in this thread.

 

No need to apologise. This is the home of the Force Long Post - and unless you've been here a while, you haven't seen a true FLP as posted by Kurgan, or Kurt whatsisname, or myself.

 

And it's refreshing to see an alternative perspective on the preceding games in the series. I'm glad you found JA to be more rewarding for you.

 

As for your comments about some of the characters in JK...I agree to an extent. Boc was definitely overdone, especially in the cut scenes. Jerec was a bit 'campy' in parts, too - I almost expected him to walk that funny walk and draw his cape up over his face in the grand old silent villain tradition...

 

I liked Maw, it has to be said. He had a unique appearance and abilities which helped to define him. I liked most of the other characters too, but as you say, they were overdone in parts, which detracted slightly from the whole.

[yoda_alex]

Originally posted by Archonon

I really hate Jerec and his group. The characters were way too over the top for my taste.

 

Fair point but a lot of Star Wars characters are over the top e.g. Darth Vader and the Emporer (maybe its a dark jedi thing?).

 

I think the reason people say they'd prefer JK-type characters is due to the overall absence of character in JA.

 

Luke, Kyle - I thought these two characters worked well, probably because we are most used to them. They weren't annoying or over the top. (I_do_think it would have been cool to see them on their own a bit more in a sort of private "council of war" as it would have given the discussions a bit more gravitas. Imagine the cutscene, Jaden is telling Luke and Kyle about his encounter with ROsh. Then Luke asks Jaden to leave them while they discuss the situation. It would really have emphasised the importance of Tavion's return)

 

Tavion - I really didn't care that she had come back. You only actually meet her 2 or 3 times so she is more of a cameo. They could have made so much more of her and how she is on a revenge kick against Katarn. Instead she had a few rather mundane appearances that didn't really have any affect on me.

 

Rosh - He didn't get on my nerves too much. I liked that he was really excitable and competative; you just knew he was going to turn to the Dark side. They did not need to include the cutscene about 2 missions in to tier 1 (where Rosh says that Kyle isn't "fostering his talents" and that he's "holding him back").

 

Alora - Tavion from JO as a Twilek only eithou the backstory to make you dislike her. She was just a slightly more skilled cultist.

 

Jaden - A bit too clean cut and goody two-shoes but OK overall. I didn't think her conversion to the dark side was beliavable mainly because I didn't consider Rosh to be Jaden's friend. They only have a few cutscenes together and the only missions they are both in either have them in different sections (the training level) or beating the s**t out of one another. Jaden and Rosh should have had some missions where they fought side by side. These could also have demonstrated how headstrong Rosh is if, say, he charged into a room of enemies on his own without you support.

 

 

Most of these point relate to the story of JA. It was just unpolished. One of the most dramatic scenes (Rosh igniting his red sabre) was riuned because you don't know what colour his original sabre was. If you knew it was gren ( and had actually seen it!) him igniting a red one would have been quite powerful - but it was not to be.

 

I think most of us agree that the problem with SP is not the level design per se, but the FEEL of the levels and interwoven cutscenes. They just don't feel like star wars. The locations don't feel like those in the film or those we've read about. The characters are bland and the enemies repetative. Levels are not teeming with civilians but are packed solely with hostiles. And put simply, the plot is poor; which is a far cry from the star wars trilogy on which the game is based.

[Archonon]

Stormhammer: LOL on the Jerec comment. Jerec was still better than Desann imo but he was just too "fake" to appear menacing for me. But that Twi'Lek dude was just too much for me everyone else was cheesy but I grant watchable. I just like my villains to be more like Maul, from my perspective he was menacing and his gaze was unsettling, had he been real, you know. Vader was at his peek in ESB, always cool and scaring the hell out of anyone in his presence, that's the type of villain I look for in SW games. But don't think I didn't like the previous games, far from it, I just like seeing more Knightly based locales than those garbage compactors and zillion imperial bases.

 

yoda_alex: I agree completely that the JA story should have had more depth in its realization, I hope that came across in what I wrote before, I only mentioned that I enjoyed the premise which the story was based upon more than the previous ones, a fully fleshed out and detailed storyline with exploration into the personalities and development of the characters of JA would have been the best it could reach. This is the reason why, for storyline purposes, I like RPGs better than other game types because they truly explore these types of issues. Imagine if the JA storyline had been developed like KOTOR, for me it would have been the best because I really like seeing games which the player can get into the story aside from just playing. Aliens Vs. Predator 2 had a top notch SP storyline which I really enjoyed apart from all the shooting, hunting and wall crawling, the Wing Commander series did the same for me in space sims, they are like watching movies run along aside the game itself.

 

I mentioned the levels as part of my complete impression of JA not in regards to any comments made by anyone in particular. As to the feel of the game, I also agreed there should have been npcs both neutral and friendly running about in different places for different reasons. But I have not seen many pure FPS that have constant npcs at all or more than a few people here and there, even in JK1 there were only occassional npcs in the Nar Shaddaa level that I could remeber, not many after that. Still, believe me I also was disappointed at the lack of friendly/neutral characters. Though I agree the locations felt as if in a void for only having enemies, I did not really felt the game lacked the SW essence all that much, for me at least the overall feel of the games was very similar to JK1 and JO but everyone gets something different from the movies anyways so this is all quite subjective to each individual.