Christianity

[CloseTheBlastDo]

Who knows, maybe they did something wrong, (im not saying they did, but who knows) an example (aids) My view is, is that the reason aids came out was because of sexual sin. If people could control themselves better, it wouldnt get spread.

 

Luke,

 

Whether your 'god' exists or not has no bearing on the utter dis-taste of your comment.

 

If your 'god' doesn't exist, then HIV is a terrible killer virus - end of story. Yes - lifestyle choice has very real consequences on the chance of infection, but your implication that sufferers somehow 'deserve' such a virus inflicted on them is - quite frankly - sick.

 

If your 'god' does exist, but the HIV virus was just a natural occurance (i.e. God didn't DIRECTLY make or spread it - it occured naturally through his already created natural laws) then ditto to my above statement.

 

...although if your god does exist, then I can perfectly believe he would be the kind of god who WOULD make a killer virus to inflict 'rightful vengence' upon the 'wicked'.

...of course, the fact that HIV also spreads .via blood transfusions (which obviously shows that Jehovahs Witnesses are the true followers of Christ ) and from mother -> child would mean absolutely f**k all to him.

...it's exactly the kind of thing I would expect from such a pathetic, thug of a deity as the biblical god.

 

Your statement has reminded me of the kind of people who used to parade around when the HIV virus first started to be noticed - waving around big signs with groteque slogans like:

 

'AIDS KILLS GAYS'

...with a big 'thumbs up' sign under it.

 

Words cannot describe how much I dispair over your ridiculous attitude to such serious matters...

Why are you surprised when people bash Christianity?!!! Read your own bloody words - the answer is staring you in the face...

 

...any more ludicrous claims you'd like to make while your at it? How about - skin cancer sufferers deserve to suffer and die for the sin of disgusting, rampant sunbathing?!!

[weiderudare]

Ah, yes, the eternal question: Does God exists?

I want to share some of my views on this matter...

One of the classical question is:

"If God exists, why is he letting us be tornamented by Aids, starvation etc..."

That's a good point, I mean, If God in all his might created a world, why is he/she/it letting us die?

If you look at today, and for about 400 years ago, the people back there had the plague and wars, big ones, all the time..

Did these people had it better than us?

No, of course not, they died all the time, usually from diseases and wars.

So, If God exists, why would he/she/it charge in and save us all now if he/she/it didn't do it when we had alot tougher?

 

I also wonders why God created this world(if he/she/it exists)

I mean, is it said in the bible?

Chapter 3, Line eight: "God created the world so everybody could be happy."

Or what?

Maybe God wanted to experiment, to see how long a stupid race would survive.

To show for his/her/its friends: "You can't guess what my world did today, I killed over 35 million without a reason!"

 

More will come.

[lukeskywalker1]

...of course, the fact that AIDS also spreads .via blood transfusions (which obviously shows that Jehovas Witnesses are the true followers of Christ ) and from mother -> child would mean absolutely f**k all to him.

 

Yes, thats something i should have said.. its not there fault. But it is the mothers fault.

 

Look, how is aids spread, through sex. If your constantly switching partners, chances are your going to get it. Stick with your wife (or find one) and then thats that. I guess it depends on your point of view, but constantly switching partners is wrong, and when you do, you will most likly get something. I look at it as a punishment. As for babies maybe it will teach the mother a lesson (sorry about the baby, as its not there fault, but theres nothing that can be done about it correct? Theres no cure, no way to save the baby, and it wasnt there fault) If it happend to me, id definatly learn from it: Now someone has died, who didnt need to, as a result of my actions. As for blood transfusions, its not that persons fault, nor did i say it was. (hey, didnt you notice i said because of their sins, since when did receiving a blood transfusion become a sin? Or being born for that matter?)

 

 

..although if your god does exist, then I can perfectly believe he would be the kind of god who WOULD make a killer virus to inflict 'rightful vengence' upon the 'wicked'.

 

And...??? That was basically my point. (excluding certain situations)

 

 

Look, i dont want anyone to have something like this, but still, in my view its wrong to constantly switch partners... I dont know what your view is. If you think its fine, then fine, you do what you think is right. If you werent doing that in the first place, you probably wouldnt have gotten it. If you do it, then fine take your chances, its not illegal. Its like stealing, you take a chance, you get out with the stuff, or you get caught. Same with sexual sins, you have sex, your fine, or you get a disease.

[lukeskywalker1]

Originally posted by weiderudare

Chapter 3, Line eight: "God created the world so everybody could be happy."

Or what?

Maybe God wanted to experiment, to see how long a stupid race would survive.

To show for his/her/its friends: "You can't guess what my world did today, I killed over 35 million without a reason!"

 

 

youve read the thread right? At least read the last few comments. Anyways, chapter 3 line 8 of what? I looked in genesis, and its not what you said?

 

Also, when have 35 million people just simply died?

 

A lot of what you asked was what can God do for me (or what isnt he doing for me/us) The thing is, we dont do anything for him. If we started then maybe something would get done. Are we worthy to get saved from this world? No. I take it you read "chapter 3 line 8 (whatever that is) but why havnt you read the rest, or have you? And even more importantly did you understand it? Did you really read it, or just look for contradictions and holes?

[CloseTheBlastDo]

(hey, didnt you notice i said because of their sins, since when did receiving a blood transfusion become a sin? Or being born for that matter?)

 

The bible DOES tell you not to intake blood (i.e. blood transfusion).

The Jehovah's Witnesses have the 'correct' interpertation of the Bible, and have known this for years.

 

If you take a blood transfusion which then results in you being infected with HIV and thereby contracting AIDS, it serves your dumb, sinful arse right for not obeying

 

'ambiguous'

'immature'

'bully-boy'

 

god.

 

IS being born a SIN?

NO - of COURSE it isn't.

 

...but the child still get's to die for the 'sins' of it's parent!

Halelluah! Praise the Lord! I've been converted!!

 

If you think I'm being serious, please re-adjust your sarcasm detector...

[ShockV1.89]

So how do you explain something like the Holocaust. Was that done to teach anyone a lesson? Was God punishing the Jews? If so, why would he punish all the other people that got thrown into the furnaces (cripples, mentally deficient, black people, etc)? Did THEY do something wrong too? Seems to me God did something wrong in making the cripples born how they were (ie, no legs, blind, etc).

 

Were the Jews slaughtered by the millions to make an example to others? Face it, there was NO real good reason for them to die, and God (supposing he's omnipotent) could have done something to save these (largely) innocent people. And if he was benevolent, he would have. Heck, if I see a guy sprawled out on the street, bleeding from a head wound, I dont stop and think to myself "Hey, this guy hasn't done anything for me. Screw him," and keep on walking. No, I help him.

 

I'd hate to think that I'm a nicer person than God.

[Cosmos Jack]

"ShockV1.89" If you like all that good stuff god does you will love this site.... This site says everything I think and a little more. lol

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

[ShockV1.89]

What an excellent website. Thank you!

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

My view is, is that the reason aids came out was because of sexual sin. If people could control themselves better, it wouldnt get spread.

 

Undoubtedly, one of the more ignorant things I've seen you write. Luke, you really should pay more attention in Biology class. AIDS is merely the result of HIV, which is a virus. There are many, many, many viruses that affect humans alone. But within animals, there are a significant number of viruses that are quite deadly, the Canine distemper virus, for instance. Can dogs sin?

 

Even if you consider that viral outbreaks are the punishments of god, then you also have to consider that god is incompetent. There have been many signature diseases of human history (syphilis, tuberculosis, small pox, polio, HIV...) and there have been successful vaccines and innoculations for many.

 

In addition, it has not been shown that many have been very successful in eliminating any particular demographic (unless you consider the millions of American Indians that perished due to the small pox introduced by the Europeans).

 

Also, god is obviously a boob if he/she/it targeted sexual sinners with his/her/its HIV. There are an extremely large amount of people who contract the disease without amoral sexual contact (by amoral, I'm referring to christian morals).

 

Using HIV, et al, as your validation of a god is very ignorant indeed.

 

Also, why wouldn't we expect some of the thousands (if not millions) of viruses that affect humans to be deleterious by chance? Actually, it isn't chance at all.... it's natural selection. The HIV survives humanity's attempts to curb it because it is more perfect of a virus than others like ebola.

 

As usual, I've no illusion that you are actually "listening" to what I've written... I'm typing for that fence-sitter

[Cosmos Jack]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

In addition, it has not been shown that many have been very successful in eliminating any particular demographic (unless you consider the millions of American Indians that perished due to the small pox introduced by the Europeans).

Ahh, but you forget. To the Christians Native Americans were heathen sinners that needed to be converted or wiped out.

 

So in a way you just gave him a good example of his idea. Even though it's still ignorant to think that it's a punishment from a all powerful god. Whatever helps him wake up in the morning.

[Homuncul]

Were the Jews slaughtered by the millions to make an example to others? Face it, there was NO real good reason for them to die, and God (supposing he's omnipotent) could have done something to save these (largely) innocent people. And if he was benevolent, he would have. Heck, if I see a guy sprawled out on the street, bleeding from a head wound, I dont stop and think to myself "Hey, this guy hasn't done anything for me. Screw him," and keep on walking. No, I help him.

 

It's like you're hating god instead of criticizing it here. But I see it this way: you try to attribute to god some human characteristics, judging him from human perspective, while god's reasoning assuming his omnipotency and omniscience is perhaps something incomprehendable to us. If I wasn't .... I don't know who I am actually.... I would have said that god still has a plan in the long term, and that for all of this there was some kind of sadistic reason (judging with human criteria). I think the Holocaust is not the best example to try to criticize god.

[Rainer511]

I just realized the problem with this topic. It's far too general. Christianity is a very broad subject. You can talk about resurrection, ethics, or your opinions on God's morality. Heck you could even assume God exists and debate whether or not the apocryphal books should be considered canon! When I think about it CTBD comments on Mormon beliefs was completely valid for debating! There also seems to be many more people refuting Christianity than people defending, which makes it very difficult to address everything that comes up.

[lukeskywalker1]

Luke, you really should pay more attention in Biology class.

 

Next semester

(beginning of feburary)

There also seems to be many more people refuting Christianity than people defending, which makes it very difficult to address everything that comes up.

 

Its always been like that... lol, ive gone to one thread where there was no christians at all... arguing about (creationism vs. evolution?)

 

BTW, CTBD isnt the point of the debate to convince the other side your right. If not, then we might as well quit, because we will just debate forever, with no reason. So you complaining that im trying to convince makes no sense.

 

Even if you consider that viral outbreaks are the punishments of god, then you also have to consider that god is incompetent. There have been many signature diseases of human history (syphilis, tuberculosis, small pox, polio, HIV...) and there have been successful vaccines and innoculations for many.

In addition, it has not been shown that many have been very successful in eliminating any particular demographic (unless you consider the millions of American Indians that perished due to the small pox introduced by the Europeans).

Also, god is obviously a boob if he/she/it targeted sexual sinners with his/her/its HIV. There are an extremely large amount of people who contract the disease without amoral sexual contact (by amoral, I'm referring to christian morals).

Using HIV, et al, as your validation of a god is very ignorant indeed.

Also, why wouldn't we expect some of the thousands (if not millions) of viruses that affect humans to be deleterious by chance? Actually, it isn't chance at all.... it's natural selection. The HIV survives humanity's attempts to curb it because it is more perfect of a virus than others like ebola.

 

Ok, so a virus just pops out of no where, and is only spread through sex, and its actually awesome. Every 24 hrs (maybe 12) it changes... or something (been a few years since ive checked out aids) So its practically impossible to make a vaccine. True, people have made vaccines. Who knows why? I didnt say God caused all diseases. Yeah, people can be raped, or whatever, and its not there fault. Who knows what reason God has for that?

[weiderudare]

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

youve read the thread right? At least read the last few comments. Anyways, chapter 3 line 8 of what? I looked in genesis, and its not what you said?

 

I was meaning that nowhere in the Bible it says why God created the world. I have read the bible 2 times, I mean, read it, thought about what it says and means. And after that, I still don't belive in God.

 

Also, when have 35 million people just simply died?

I know that 35 million people haven't died in like a second. But im talking about a over a 30 year period. I was meaning that half of the population in Europe died in the plauge. Thats alot.

 

 

 

Originally posted by lukeskywalker1

A lot of what you asked was what can God do for me (or what isnt he doing for me/us) I take it you read "chapter 3 line 8 (whatever that is) but why havnt you read the rest, or have you? And even more importantly did you understand it? Did you really read it, or just look for contradictions and holes?

I have read it, 2 times, Have you? I think that God is a mean God, who only does that he feels to do

 

The thing is, we dont do anything for him. If we started then maybe something would get done. Are we worthy to get saved from this world? No.

What shall we do?

Kill some jews? We have done that, didn't work

Worship him? We have done that for about 2000 year, didn't work

Kill some moslems or other people? Didn't work

 

So, what should we do? I mean, the bible says he created us, so he have to have a plan, right?

[vegietto]

yeah god doesn't cause all diseases, i mean some of them people bring it on themselves like girls when they act like they our going to give it to a guy then stop guys can't just stop i mean it is hard for us i can but not most guys i mean if the gurls is one of them that always gived it up or if the guys is drunk then it is going to happened, but god doesn't cause them all i mean and i don't why he lets it happened maybe it is to teach the person a lesson for their sins.

[weiderudare]

But isn't God supposed to be allmighty?

So, when you say that God hasn't created all the diseases, then he hasn't complete power. And that would probably ruin the whole idea of God.

[vegietto]

that doesn't mean he has all powers but maybe he gived them diseases for punishment fo all the sins they have done in their life that is what i think ok

[weiderudare]

But what about the children that gets sick?

What evil things have they done?

If the have evil parents, why are the kids punished?

do the children have to suffer because of their parents mistake?

[lukeskywalker1]

I was meaning that nowhere in the Bible it says why God created the world. I have read the bible 2 times, I mean, read it, thought about what it says and means. And after that, I still don't belive in God.

 

Ok.

 

I know that 35 million people haven't died in like a second. But im talking about a over a 30 year period. I was meaning that half of the population in Europe died in the plauge. Thats alot.

 

 

So its God's fault right?

 

I have read it, 2 times, Have you? I think that God is a mean God, who only does that he feels to do

 

I might have.. ive read all through once. Now i just skip around.

Ive been skipping around for about a year, so i probably have read most of it again. Some things i have read over and over again.

 

 

What shall we do?

Kill some jews? We have done that, didn't work

Worship him? We have done that for about 2000 year, didn't work

Kill some moslems or other people? Didn't work

 

So, what should we do? I mean, the bible says he created us, so he have to have a plan, right?

 

 

True he has a plan for us. But you have the wrong understanding of christianity. We dont kill people.... its happend. But then again, many "christians" have. My point is, you could call yourself a christian, and kill someone, but your not christian. But even so, the media will make it out that a christian has done this or that.... even though it wasnt a christian.

[vegietto]

yeah their parents bring it on the kids but it is true

[weiderudare]

Ok then, what defines a christian?

How should we live to get Gods attenion?

Killing people in Gods name has been done many times, and if their not christians, then what are they?

 

And what about the other religions? Do the moslems have wrong?

[vegietto]

a person who is fully faithful to god, not do stupid stuff, they our evil people, i don't know about theo ther ones

[weiderudare]

But how are you faithful to God?

Paul(Is that his name?) wrote letters telling people not to marry ecother.

If God is so great and forgiving, why do we have to live a certain way to be accepted by him/her/it

[CloseTheBlastDo]

BTW, CTBD isnt the point of the debate to convince the other side your right. If not, then we might as well quit, because we will just debate forever, with no reason. So you complaining that im trying to convince makes no sense.

 

As far as I'm concerned, that is the typical school-boy definition of a debate, and explains your attitude in volumes.

 

Consider a court of law. Lawyers on opposing sides give their cases. They are free to bring forward evidence and counter each-others arguments. This is very similar in nature to the kind of debates we have here on these forums.

 

First point to make is that either case aren't free to make any old claim they like!! They must provide EVIDENCE. They must use logical and rational arguments. If they don't, the opposition can OBJECT.

...much in the same way that we sometimes object to each-other's points in these forums if we think the other party is not using logical or rational arguments.

 

The other important point is that in a court of law, both sides aren't just there to argue their cases JUST FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING THEIR CASE - or to 'convince the other side their right.'

The POINT of it is to get to the TRUTH. That is the point of a court of law, and as far as I'm concerned, that is also the point of a debate. i.e. to get to the TRUTH of a matter by considering and discussing many viewpoints.

 

Now of course, I will believe my viewpoint to be the truth of the matter - at the time I give my opinion. This is normal and acceptable.

Otherwise, I would not bother giving an opinion!!

 

But, If I hear something from someone else which seems to contradict my viewpoint, and it is also backed up by evidence and is a logical, rational argument - then I have three choices.

I can either:

 

1. Acknowledge the point as valid - NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S

 

2. Acknlowdege the point, but provide a rational, logical counter-argument (with evidence)

 

3. Ignore the point as if it didn't exist and carry on with my arguments.

 

Choice no.3 can be used (free speech and all that), but debaters who resort to choice no.3 show themselves to be the kind of debaters who are actually NOT interested in reaching an agreement on the ACTUAL TRUTH.

...they are only interested in making sure their viewpoint APPEARS to be correct. i.e. CONVINCE the other side they are right...

 

You have resorted to Choice no.3 MANY times Luke.

If you insist on it, I will go back and quote you from the times you have - but I would rather you stand up and admit it like a man rather than me having to prove it to you...

[lukeskywalker1]

Originally posted by weiderudare

But what about the children that gets sick?

What evil things have they done?

If the have evil parents, why are the kids punished?

do the children have to suffer because of their parents mistake?

 

 

Just because God didnt make a virus (or did he? I dont know) that doesnt mean he is not omnipotent.

 

Maybe, the children serve as a punishment. I know its not fair... you act as if we live in a perfect world. A perfect world wouldnt need God. You act as if the world is perfect and your trying to blame everything bad that happens on God. It might be bad at the time, but it can turn out better. They even teach us stuff. For example not to take things for granted. We take almost everything for granted. We can learn to not take things for granted by seeing these people (our health) we are luckly that God has blessed us with good health.