Enhanced Brainstorming: Saber System

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I imagine that the dodge system will play a big role in all this, especially since real life players can't react with jedi-like reflexes

 

I definelty think the dodge system has a place in the saber system. Now that I think about it, I can remember many instances where a defending Jedi has side-stepped or ducked to avoid an incoming saber attack in the films.

 

...but I would say this -I don't think a Jedi should be able to defend more than one saber attack in a row. I think if they can defend two or more in sequence, that's when it starts to look 'strange' and 'unnatural'...

 

...also, I've got a feeling dodge should only be possible for slower attacks...

 

On another subject, I think Ytmh has an interesting idea to have the parry ability go into a saberlock instead of just an automatic knockback.

 

Possibly - I'm not sure if I'm quite clear on this idea though. Can this be explained in more detail?

 

I've found that about %50 normal speed would be pretty good for the "average" level of difficulty. Beginner servers could probably use 25% or something.

 

I think this depends on two things.

 

1. WHat stance your talking about (assuming of course we are still having stances - but in either cases, the moves currently associated with the stances...). Red -for example - doesn't need any slowing down imo. In fact, it can be argued it could be sped up and still defended against...

 

2. If we are keeping in ANY concept of auto-blocking. In my system, just holding block is an auto-block (not directional). I think this is still a good option to have - against gunners, fast attacking styles like blue, and simply when you have a lot of opponents coming at you, and it's not really practical to think about directional blocking each of them at the same time.

 

Directional blocking is both buttons together, and would only really be used in 1v1 (or possible 1v2 or 2v2) duels...

 

But of course that's thinking about it from the viewpoint of my system...

[razorace]

I'm against comboing in a "it's different than normal attacking" sense. It's not realistic and forces people to remember button combinations.

 

However, I'm in favor of dynamic comboing which basically means that you pick your next saber move is based off all the possible moves from your current saber position. (The JKA system already uses this to some degree.)

 

For example, from the center position you decide to attack left. Your player winds up and swings left. You're now momentially in the Center left swing position. From here you have multiple options: Wait and let your player move back to the center "ready" position; do another left swing command (center, up, or down) and go into a spin; Do a right swing command and slice your saber back the way it came.

 

The overall effect is that you can have rthym to your attacks. Just like in the movies.

 

However, I should notice that bounce attacks need to be changed. A lot of the problems with the current system is due to the way the sabers don't physically exist in the game world. When sabers bounce they often use animation blending to pass straight thru the other dude's saber and hurts him.

 

Have I several ideas on how to fix this, mainly by having sabers move back to one of the attack positions on impact AND by have the Player's view lock (in the direction of the impact) while the saber is in contact with other objects. This should make impacts feel more real and prevent people from yaw whoring their sabers into people.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I'm against comboing in a "it's different than normal attacking" sense. It's not realistic and forces people to remember button combinations.

 

I think we need to be careful in what sense we are trying to be realistic here.

 

If you mean making a realistic control system, you would go for something like 'Die By The Sword' - where literally EVERY SINGLE movement of your weapon is dictated exactly by movements of the mouse...

 

When I say 'realistic', I mean 'looks' realistic to the action to the movies. After that, the only other requirement is that the saber combat is competitive and encourgaes skillful play.

 

Don't get me wrong - I do think your 'dynamic combo' idea is a good one. But for me, the downside is it would make a sustained series of rapid attacks VERY difficult to achieve. And since we see plenty of them in the movies, I think they should be possible... (i.e. my combo attack, countered by a combo defense.)

 

I actually think both your 'dynamic combo' idea and my combo idea can both exist in the same system...

[razorace]

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

...but I would say this -I don't think a Jedi should be able to defend more than one saber attack in a row. I think if they can defend two or more in sequence, that's when it starts to look 'strange' and 'unnatural'...

Dodge will use saber blocking whenever that's possible. The physical dodging will only occur when an attack occurs that totally gets past the saber dodging system (say when someone is attacked at a odd angle). Physical dodges are more expensive than saber dodge blocks but happen less often (assuming that the player has a saber activated and isn't a total n00b).

 

...also, I've got a feeling dodge should only be possible for slower attacks...

What slower attacks? All attacks should be sought at about the same speed. The difference should be in the windup peroid.

 

1. WHat stance your talking about (assuming of course we are still having stances - but in either cases, the moves currently associated with the stances...). Red -for example - doesn't need any slowing down imo. In fact, it can be argued it could be sped up and still defended against...

All of them, but mainly yellow. The only slow part of red is the wind up, that should probably stay about the same speed. The actual attack swing should be about as fast as the slowed down yellow attack speeds. Remember that we're talking actual manual blocking here. It's MUCH, MUCH harder than standing there with autoblock.

 

2. If we are keeping in ANY concept of auto-blocking. In my system, just holding block is an auto-block (not directional). I think this is still a good option to have - against gunners, fast attacking styles like blue, and simply when you have a lot of opponents coming at you, and it's not really practical to think about directional blocking each of them at the same time.

Yes, Dodge handles autoblocking. It just has a Dodge cost instead of being totally random like in basejka.

[razorace]

Originally posted by RenegadeOfPhunk

Don't get me wrong - I do think your 'dynamic combo' idea is a good one. But for me, the downside is it would make a sustained series of rapid attacks VERY difficult to achieve. And since we see plenty of them in the movies, I think they should be possible... (i.e. my combo attack, countered by a combo defense.)

 

It wouldn't be difficult at all, you just keep holding down the button. It's just like the current system, just with a little more control

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Right - ok I think I get your system a bit more now. And it certainly works as a gameplay mechanic.

 

...but I'm afraid I don't see the resulting gameplay looking much like the movies...

 

In the movies, you see fast exchanges - faster than defending players will have a hope of blocking manually. Now, if you talking about slowing down ALL attacks to make them blockable - well - you may be on course for representing some of the slower, OT battles, but you certainly will not be representing a lot of the blisteringly fast combat in Ep.I and II.

 

Plus, I'm guessing you ARE planning on allowing more than one dodge in a row. And I don't think this will look natural at all...

 

In short - I'm not in favour of completely ditching any concept of auto-blocking (or completely replacing it with auto-dodging...). I think SOME amount of auto-blocking NEEDS to remain to make sure the fast exchanges seen in the movies are still possible.

 

WHat I am proposing is a mixture of both. Auto-blocking for fast attakcs, and manual blocking for slower attacks. You can TRY and auto-block against slower attacks, but this shoudn't be very effective, and you won't have much - if any - chance of knockaways...

[razorace]

Well, yes, things will be slower than the pace you see in the PT, but there's not much we can do about that since we're trying to make a game that is fun to play instead of a video demo. The battles will still be quick paced and furious. They just won't be Yoda vs Dooku fast.

 

And I don't think you get what I mean about the dodge system. Most dodges will use the saber to block incoming attacks. The physical dodges ONLY occur when the saber would be unable to get to the attack quickly enough to block it.

 

Like I mentioned above, it's basically just a better autoblock with an meter instead of a random number generator. As such, it won't look unnatural since a Dodge block will look the same as a auto or manual block (unless a physical dodge is required).

 

I should note that Dodge will probably have to have some sort of effect (visual or sound) to let the players know that it's happening. We need feedback of some sort so people can know why their dodge meter is going down.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Well, yes, things will be slower than the pace you see in the PT, but there's not much we can do about that since we're trying to make a game that is fun to play instead of a video demo. The battles will still be quick paced and furious. They just won't be Yoda vs Dooku fast.

 

I'm not suggesting the whole saber battle would be played at that kind of speed - I'm just saying it should be possible for it to happen.

Fast attacks should be draining. Mine and BloodRiot's system has the fatigue meter. This would drain fast if you continually throw fast attacks at your opponent - so in the end you wouldn't be able to continually sustain them.

 

Bottom line is, I think it's perfectly possible to represent both OT and PT saber combat in the same system - and keep it skill-based. You just have to get away from the idea that 'skill' HAS to involve directing every little movement of the saber. Skill can involve other things too...

 

And I don't think you get what I mean about the dodge system. Most dodges will use the saber to block incoming attacks. The physical dodges ONLY occur when the saber would be unable to get to the attack quickly enough to block it.

 

Ahhh -ok - sorry, I understand now. OK, that sounds good then. It sounds similar to the fatigue system, although I'm guessing your dodge system doesn't get drained when attacking...?

 

 

instead of a random number generator.

 

I agree. No system we come up with should rely on random numbers. The only exception is when the result of the random number is purely visual -i.e. does not affect actual gameplay...

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I think I'm starting to get a firmer idea of that I'm proposing here...

 

...what I'm proposing is a system that incorporates concepts like directional blocking, but STILL has the potential to appeal to 'old-school' JKII / JKA players also.

(Obviously this can only be so true. The 'real' old schoolers would never play anything different from the base game. But I mean in principle - assuming they were willing to try something new...)

 

...and at the same time this system would allow for both OT and PT type combat.

 

The base game is ALL auto blocking - there isn't even a block button.

...but saber combat still requires skill to be good at it. If you disagree, try telling that hypothesis to top JKII / JKA players...!

 

The skill obviously isn't literally controlling the saber in a direct way, but instead it comes from positioning, performing specials etc.

 

What were proposing with directional blocking is a different type of skill. It feels more 'real' and 'direct' - but that doesn't mean it is ACTUALLY more skillful.

(To demonstrate my point hypothetically - if you slowed down the incoming attacks enough, it would become rediculously easy -to the point that the base game would require more skill.)

 

So rather than just completely replacing the base-game type play with only directional-blocking type play, instead you can mix the two together. In this way, you get a system which covers the whole trilogy and is more inclusive to different types of players...

[razorace]

The Dodge system is connected to the Fatigue system. Fatigue points feed the Dodge meter.

 

Yeah, me and Y set up this basic saber system concept like a year ago and have been refining it ever since. Hell is in the details.

 

Anyway, I've also toyed with the idea of the idea of having the ability to set the saber attack speed at the expense of fatigue. However, that also ties into the more RPG like skills system so I haven't really talked about it here.

 

I think it would be easier to assume that there isn't a varible swing speed control for now. There's no problem with having a universal server setting for the swing speed but a per player setting is a whole new can of worms.

[BloodRiot]

I like razor's idea of dynamic comboing over the pre programmed and automatic combos in which you have no power to change and/or stop at will.

 

All the moves from all the stances are usable as long as they are equalized to yellow speed standards imo.

 

Well if razor says that the dodge meter will also work as an autoblock then i dont we have a discussion whether or not the autobloking is still in the system. On question though... since the dodge meter represents that above human reflexes that allowed jedi to dodge or block things that a normal human couldn't... welll we ARE talking about the force right? So why not make the dodge ability a force power that is on at all times and is auto engaged just like the force sight when it makes you dodge that sniper shot? Just something to think about..

 

My guess is that saber speed has to be just enough for a normal human player to be able to block one ore more chained attacks... but still with the right ammount of dificulty that it will require practice and will keep you on your toes.

 

The attack move is to inflict damage upon the enemy player in order to win, while defense is usd o strategically maneuver into or wait for a more favorable time and/or recover stamina spent on attacks or some other thing. Another way to view parry is like an attack directed at the opponents weapon instead of his body in order to deflect the enemy saber leaving the opponent open for attack for a split second... counter attack is always performed only after a sucessfull parry and it's advantage over a regular attack is that it's ALMOST a certain hit to the body... the risk pays off cuz you will directly cost the enemy valuable dodge points and/or his life.

 

About some new stuff i just thought about...this shuld be hell but i'll just try it anyway. Since the parry can only be performed from a defensive pose, why not making the parry from a non-defending pose like a fake half attack to allow a real full attack followup? Remeber in th duel fo the fates? obi wan and qui gon side by side with maul right in front of them.. obi wan fakes an attack to draw maul's attention while qui gon goes for the real strike.

 

Since the dodge meter will be present and will save the player's butt a few times, no matter what you do... it will always look more real cuz only when u run out of dodge and make a mistake... you really get hit and die... so it will always look more real. After dodge is depleted and you get hit.. i'd go for a 1 hit kill. If you are good then even if you get a bit drained dodge meer.. it will recharge.

 

I've been mostly considering Duels...taking other gamemodes into account, it think the blaster fire defending should be automatic but it's effectiveness would depend on both the points spent on saber defense and the current stamina. Either way Jedi by all means are powerfull and hardly will a smart gunner tak a jedi/sith threat lightly. Nevertheless the jedi must never be uber powerfull to underestimate a gunner.. and even for a jedi... there is a time to fight.. and a time to get the hell out (again TPM offers the perfect example -> Qui Gon and Obi Wan vs the Droidekas on the trade fedaration ship). Since stamina will also affect gunners and quite possibly..dodge as well notsure how razor wants to use dodge for gunners. In the end, it can be balanced.

 

Keshire: The style choosing over individual moves should also work. I have nothing against that. Just hadn't thought about it that way.

 

Renegade: yes, the parry will work something like that. By clicking on attack+defense you execute a an attack towards the enemy saber as i said... it will look like a strong defense and is merely a defense powerup as sugested by razorace. After that it has to do with timing liek you said and with stamina again as you said... yup i guess you got that part down nicely I think the drawback to parry is that if you have a much lower stamina than the opponents, the parry could or should backfire and it's the players saber that get's deflected and or disarmed. This risk probably makes parry an unwise mov to spam unless you are a good stamina manager. Maybe it should cost more stamina as well... although not completely realistic, gameplay wise it should be itneresting and enjoyable.

[razorace]

Well, unless we get some new animations designed just for parrying (the current animations are made for actual attacking), I can't really see the parry working by "attacking the saber". The current animations simply aren't set up for the lateral movements used for parrying.

 

Doing fakes is interesting idea.

 

Ok, assuming that parry = attack+block, what should the block button do while you're doing an attack? Anyway? Should that be the "fake out" button?

 

IMO, using Dodge Blocking (saber autoblock) against blaster bolts should be less expensive since bolts seem to be easier physically to block AND because blaster bolts are much harder to manually block.

 

As for Dodge and non-Jedi, Non-Jedi would have some level of Dodge (simulating luck and professional level reflexes) but it would be much less than what Jedi get. Non-Jedi should also get less stamina to account for them having fewer skills that drain stamina.

[BloodRiot]

I'm glad you liked the fake idea. I'll explain further.

 

Parrying is used from a defensive stance while faking is used in offensive stance. The word stance is not to be taken as in the stances we know in JO/JA... but rather as player/character attitudes or behaviors.

 

When you start defending an enemy attack, you are taking a defensive stance as far as your current combat maneuvers... either for regaining stamina or just waiting for the right time to strike back. If you are attacking than you are obviously on offensive and it's likely that the opponent wil take a defensive stance in turn.

 

If the fake is implemented, then i propose that the parry can only be a followup of a previous defense move that allows a counter attack afterwards as a followup to parry... so it becomes a chainned (but not automatic as a kata for instance) event: Block -> Parry -> Counter Attack.

 

If you haven't blocked anything and do the attack+defense move than it's likely you are either attacking or in a standoff. if it's not defending the attack+defense makes a fake attack.

 

Or we may simple make them a totally diferent set of keys or key combos or whatever.

[razorace]

Well, we can't make it too complicated or people won't be able to use it effectively.

 

I think your block->parry->counterattack is an interesting idea but I don't think the player will have enough time during a block to press the parry button. A Parry->Counterattack system would probably work but I'll have to think about how to do it since you'd have to somehow switch to counterattack mode and back after the parry.

[BloodRiot]

The switch you mention could just be automatic... like the special attack after a sucessfull saberlock in JA.

 

So that way if you succeed at a parry and perform an attack right after it's automatically the counterattack, but if you wait a second after the parry, then you continue fighting as normal.

[TheLiberator34]

Ok here's my two cents.

Offensively speaking I think the real problem is the saber "styles" should be based off kendo movements rather more than spinny, flashy moves. You see in kendo you have different which each serve a tactical purpose. Yellow would have you point your weapon at the opponents throat and present the a good offensive or defensive position. Red would probably have you hold the weapon overhead with the butt of the hilt aimed at your opponents eyes(for a more powerful downstroke) and blue would have you point towards your opponents knees(to lure him into attacking or to do a quick upward slash to strike the hands or arms or your opponent.) I know you think changing animations is tough, but I've seen it done on a few mods.

Defense wise I like the idea of a block button, maybe with a dodge meter as a backup to that, but you should only be able to dodge one or two stroke. If your still in saber range after that any skilled swordman should be carving you up.

[razorace]

Say, aren't you one of the guys working on that Matrix mod?

[keshire]

Let me get this out of the way while its still fresh in my mind.

 

I would suggest leaving saber throw for a seperate discussion. The fact is that this new blocking system doesn't nessesarily mean saber throw has to go or stay - they are two different features which don't have to affect each-other.

 

Saber throw should be single use. No force power. I'd also argue it should be an overhead vertical throw instead of the current horizontal. This makes it a last ditch effort attack or a "I know your close to dying" attack. Use of force pull like stated earlier or manually retrieving should follow. Then you could just bind it to a different key.

[Aryyn]

Blocking its all about blocking. Because a hit is recorded 9 times out of 10.

[BloodRiot]

To be honest i kinda like the kendo moves idea. But as far as i know renegade and razor also want some prequel duel flash to it.

 

In fact both blue and yellow stance are too spinny... the best moves are definetly red stance for single saber. They would only need to be a bit speed up to match yellow speed. a mild wind up (as in longer than standard yellow but shorter than red's should provide a good feeling. Even in the movies we see the move windups.

[keshire]

Kendo Stances should be doable. Unless he wants the whole sha'bang. Then that more problematic. I've got all the saber anims sorted now I'm going thorugh and putting descriptions next to them. Then I'll start some work on altering moves and styles and stances.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

But as far as i know renegade and razor also want some prequel duel flash to it.

 

Well - Razor actually doesn't want prequel duel flash -at least not at the same intense speed. i.e. too fast to have a chance to manually block.

 

I, however, do. I'm not saying I want one OR the other, I think it should be possible to have both. Some players may become expert at the new, slower directional blocking combat. Others may be better at the more 'old-skool' combat - which will more resemble the prequels.

 

...both should be able to fight each-other in the same system.

 

...this is why i want JUST block to be auto-block, and block + attack to be directional block...

[BloodRiot]

I dont have a problem about having both, but i dont think it's a good idea to allow the mboth to work at the same time. Imo if we go for distinct systems i'd make a server option to dictate what type of saber fight is enabled on that particular server... realistic dueling or movie dueling.

 

But above all i'd rather have a realistic dueling system with flashy movies in between.

 

Also Renegade... realistic doesnt mean slow paced. and i believe the kendo talk was about moves not pace of the duel. The old school battles will always have to included the realistic feature anyway cuz otherwise it will defer lil from what we already have in JA. The Staff and Dual Sabers are flashy enough on their own.

I believe alot of moves will have to be tweaked tho. The butterfly is a move that i want in, but i dunno how to make it realistic even by your movie standards... Maul used it but as a navigational move not as an attack. the sight of a guy crossing half the taspir landing pad with a butterfly while hitting everything in it's path while still performing the move to the end looks pretty 2d arcade fighting game to me. maybe if we used the sideways and create a backwards only move for the butterfly... it still inflictcs damage but it will look nicer. Another reason for my frown upon the butterfly is that it would be hell to defend that attack without autodefense( or with autodefense for that matter).

 

Imo if such too-much-like-present-JA visuals are used, it will defeat most of the realism and movie like appeal we strive for.

 

So in the end, imo we should have a realistic fighting with non and semi flashy moves that represent the basic proficiency with the saber... and we got the flashy stuff like jump attacks, cartwheels and other flashy stuff that destinguish the jedi and their use of the force from ordinary fencers of old or samurais and the way it's depicted in the star wars movies. The best of both worlds.

 

I'll rest for now. After reading some of your comments i'll try to re-adapt the system and work out a more thought out explanation.

I'll get back on this.

 

Cheers.

[keshire]

I'll second the removal of the forward butterfly. As it is people use it as an attack. Same thing with the dual forward butterfly.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I believe alot of moves will have to be tweaked tho. The butterfly is a move that i want in, but i dunno how to make it realistic even by your movie standards...

 

Yeap - I agree. If we want to get it as Movie Realistic as possible, we need to think about altering (or removing) some of the moves currently in JA - I think some of them are way OTT...

 

Also Renegade... realistic doesnt mean slow paced. and i believe the kendo talk was about moves not pace of the duel.

 

Razor is proposing slowing down ALL moves - to the extent that you should be able to manually block them. i.e. there would be no moves of the current blue stance speed...

 

...but saber battles of 'blue stance' speed are seen in plenty of instances in the movies. So if we want this system to represent ALL the different kinds of saber battles seen in the movies, then blue attacks SHOULDN'T be slowed down.

 

...that's my point...

 

I dont have a problem about having both, but i dont think it's a good idea to allow the mboth to work at the same time.

 

...but hang on. What you described here:

 

So in the end, imo we should have a realistic fighting with non and semi flashy moves that represent the basic proficiency with the saber... and we got the flashy stuff like jump attacks, cartwheels and other flashy stuff that destinguish the jedi and their use of the force from ordinary fencers of old or samurais and the way it's depicted in the star wars movies. The best of both worlds.

 

..aren't you talking about the same system? Not having to be split up into two different servers (realistic and flashy...) - aren't you saying that you want to see both these kinds of attacks possible? If so - this is exactly what I am asking for. Just add 'fast' attacks to that list you have (jump attacks, cartwheels etc.), and that's what I'm saying...