razorace Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Ok, I'm creating a new thread to try to jump start discussion about modding the saber system in response to some creative differences various individuals have been having over it. I'd like to try to keep the discussion focused on specifics instead pie-in-the-sky ideas, but any good ideas are welcome. Bad ideas will be met with spankings and wiseass remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 I'll start the discussion by saying that the flaky hit detection needs to be fixed. Towards that goal, I've already created a brand spankin' new trace "type" which I call "real Traces". It's specifically designed to get around one of the major issues with the hit detection, which is the way that the saber can only near miss (hit the entity's bounding box but miss their per-poly ghoul2 trace). This is a extremely important flaw since the saber entities are boxes of monsterous size that are often inbetween saber combatants. Anyway, I beleive my system is working correctly but it still hasn't fixed all the passthrus yet. I beleive the problem related to the way the saber traces currently run from the tip of the saber towards the hilt and the way the saber code handles hits that start inside of objects. I'm back from my vacation and will be able work on this problem soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keshire Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Now that your back I've seen some issues with some of the current stuff. Your new bounce on bodies code throws any stab-like attacks into quite ugly mirrored attacks. This includes the roll-stab and lunge. The other attacks seem just fine. also the View Lock gets caught on terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 Well, I'm leaving the view/move lock against terrain on for testing purposes...for now. Plus, (once I get the bugs out) it might be something that we'd want to just leave on. I've set things up so the saber should be scraping unless it's being rammed into something. It should add some realism and encourage people to not make huge swings in confined areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keshire Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Yep its done that to me so far. Nothing like being trapped in an elevator with one or more people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 More Stuff Completed: - sabers now use actual saber radiuses for saber collision checks. - Rewrote saber tracing system (I call it a Real Trace now) for better performance and accuracy. it's not 100% (there's some crazy situation where it isn't guarnteed to be perfect, like when multiple players and sabers touching the same saber @ the same time), but it's perfect enough for all the SANE situations that I could think of. - sv_fps is now set to 40 for improved hit detection. Please note that you might have to do some setting tweaks (that I can't do for you) to get the most out of the change. See http://www.techspot.com/tweaks/jedioutcast/jedi-6.shtml for details. I've figured out the ghoul2 hit detection problem. It looks like it was a couple of minor logic/math problems that were getting out of hand. Basically, the hit detection is probably about as good as I can make it from a coding standpoint. The only left (without the engine source) is to just boost the server's fps rate and tweaking the saber collision radius. I've already doubled it from the base value for OJP Enhanced and it makes a big difference. Of course all this will have to be tested but it seems to be shaping up well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Is this for gameplay changes to the saber system (I.E. I want some system where I can move my eyes and I attack exactly where my eyes point, as well as having massively cool special effects and twirls) or things more related to coding changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Originally posted by babywax Is this for gameplay changes to the saber system (I.E. I want some system where I can move my eyes and I attack exactly where my eyes point, as well as having massively cool special effects and twirls) or things more related to coding changes? It's for both. However, your idea isn't really fesible. Something like that would require inverse kenetics with a massive amount of body modeling and that's a bit beyond our abilities. Sorry. However, I am working on ways to allow players to have more control over their sabers. You'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Well, I was just kidding as to my "suggestion," I just tried to make it as outrageous as possible I would like it if you couldn't move at all while you swing your saber, and at the end you have a sort of half second pause... so it would create a more "you attack, then I attack" setting. It would sort of make it more like Tekken or Soul Calibur 2 (I love that game). However I can see that many people might not like this... plus I wouldn't be programming it, so only do it if you like Can you elaborate on your saber system? Sounds cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keshire Posted January 20, 2004 Share Posted January 20, 2004 Well we currently have three saber system threads open, and I'm sure everything being proposed by Razor or Renegade is being worked on. So have a look. Enhanced WIP: Saber System Enhanced Brainstorming: Saber System and optionally: Enhanced WIP & Brainstorming: Saber Throw Mechanics Brainstorming: New Weapon Type: Reverse Grip Enhanced Ideas: "Z-Targeting" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 20, 2004 Author Share Posted January 20, 2004 Originally posted by babywax I would like it if you couldn't move at all while you swing your saber, and at the end you have a sort of half second pause... so it would create a more "you attack, then I attack" setting. It would sort of make it more like Tekken or Soul Calibur 2 (I love that game). However I can see that many people might not like this... plus I wouldn't be programming it, so only do it if you like I don't really think that's a good idea. There's already a noticable pause when the player transistions from one starting position to another. Plus, not being able to move would be suicide vs gunners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 Ok dokie, I'm working on the saber mechanics as we speak. This is what I'm thinking here. On every collision, there will be several random rolls of 0-1000, that determine what happens based on the situational stats of the following : - Knockdown: The force of the collision knocks you down. - Knockback: The force of the collision blasts you off balance, while you're off balance, you're vulnerble to attack. - Butter fingers: The collision knocks the affected saber out of your hand. Factors that affect the above: - Skill levels - movement speeds - current saber moves/positions - hand(s) grip on the sabers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soruss Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Ideas to follow... in a very messed up order becuase I kept finishing the post and going "hey, what about..." I'd like to see some different properties for the attacks in different directions (does this make sense?) Say if you moved diagonally back, then your swing might be better at causing the enemies saber to be knocked away, leaving him/her open for attack. Vertical strikes would be the best at surpassing defenses, where horizontal strikes just hit a large area. Also, mayber if you start a swing and move in the opposite direction that the swing was initiated in, the attack might do less damage? Oh and uhh... maybe different stances make you move faster in different directions at different speeds... examples: blue) Forward: very fast, Strafing: fast, Backwards: above average yellow) Forward: very fast, Strafing: above average, Backwards: average. red) Forward: extremely fast, Strafing: average, Bakwards: slow. Might add some subtle strategy. One more idea... Something needs to be done about just holding down the attack button forever. Maybe some sort of a stamina, so when you hold it down your stamina decreases and when you let go you suffer penalties to speed/defense proportional to how long it was held down? Dunno if this belongs in the saber system thread, but with hand to hand/ melee fights the best tactic is just to crouch and punch because you can't be knocked to the ground. the grab is too slow... maybe if you could turn whiledoing it. I dunno. If you don't know what Promod for jk:o is then you might want to look it up for some ideas. Had some great features, but was a little broken in it's own right. The class system was great. ok ok, im getting off topic and rambling. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 3, 2004 Author Share Posted February 3, 2004 Ok dokie. I just got the brand new (and already infamous) saber system up and running. It's still in the early stage of development but it's mostly there. It's now time to fill in control defines, bug smash, and game balance. I'll be uploading the system soon, hopefully tomorrow. Anyway, this bad boy will be need a LOT of beta testing to balance things out, figure out what works for the game, etc. Any help would be appreciated. Dunno if this belongs in the saber system thread, but with hand to hand/ melee fights the best tactic is just to crouch and punch because you can't be knocked to the ground. the grab is too slow... maybe if you could turn whiledoing it. I dunno. You can't be knocked down while crouching? That's not good. I'll have to check that out. Also, mayber if you start a swing and move in the opposite direction that the swing was initiated in, the attack might do less damage? Done. I've made it so movement and turning in relation to the target results in more or less damage +- %120 (assuming that you're spinning like a top while getting launched at the target from a cannon As for styles affecting speed, I don't think that will really work as if would cause the slower styles to become useless. However, I agree that the run strafe should be a bit slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 The new saber system behavioral core is now on the repository. Please check it out if you have time, the more feedback and testing the better the system will be. I've been playing with it a bit and here's some areas where I think it needs improvement: - Damage scaler for the behavioral code. Realistically a idle saber is much less likely to screw up than a saber in a full on attack. - While the parry bonus does give some advantage to manual blocking, I think the fatigue system will need to be in place before it will become really useful. - Maybe make the knockback and knockdown actions have a bit of kickback to them? I think it looks a bit weird when they stand in place while these things happen. - Add server cvar so that wall/floor/world impacts can be set so they don't cause saber screw ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 - Add in the saber characteristic "Parry Bonus" to the parry bonus behavioral code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keshire Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Hmm...I didn't think any of the saber bonuses were used in MP? Your speaking of the ones defined in the .sab's right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 Yep, and, yes, they are used in MP. - Make idle sabers not significantly affect mishap chances. Y pointed out that it looks funny that vader can get floored if he bumps an idle saber with an idle saber while running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Chemix Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Things I want to see: The ability for a sword/ saber to have both saber blades and real blades. Something that allows swords to expand, unsheathing section by section, would be realy cool looking, and functional for servers that want servers yet ban laming, which could accidently happen when a sword is out, because the blade can't withdraw, this would allow blades to withdraw A new sort of reflective shader that works on weapons, or atleast a chrome shader that looks better than the default one Balancing out the saber system, better defence with the double blade saber, lower attack power with the strong saber, more katas for each type of blade, saber acrobatics Felixble weapons Don't overcomplicate the system, but make it better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 The ability for a sword/ saber to have both saber blades and real blades. Something that allows swords to expand, unsheathing section by section, would be realy cool looking, and functional for servers that want servers yet ban laming, which could accidently happen when a sword is out, because the blade can't withdraw, this would allow blades to withdraw A new sort of reflective shader that works on weapons, or atleast a chrome shader that looks better than the default one Balancing out the saber system, better defence with the double blade saber, lower attack power with the strong saber, more katas for each type of blade, saber acrobatics Felixble weapons Don't overcomplicate the system, but make it better Chrome shaders are an issue for the individual skinners. I don't know how physical weapons are handled server side but adding in saber weapon animations would be a pretty big hassle for something that I can't imagine more than one or two modellers would use. Flexible weapons? What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Chemix Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 sword mods are becoming more and more popular, so it would be very usesful, as for flexible weapons, I don't know, throwdarts perhaps, num-chux (dang I know I spelled that wrong) whatever, I was just trying to help, but don't forget the last part of that post, remember, overcomplication is a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 I haven't seen them get more popular. What are you basing that on? And creating flexible weapons would be a coding nightmare. I don't really see it happening, especially when the game isn't about non-Star Wars weapons anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted February 5, 2004 Author Share Posted February 5, 2004 I'd like to discuss what we should do with the katas and the Primary + Secondary mouse combo. While the katas are flashy, I think they're making people not do basic saber play by just spamming the katas a lot. I think they either need to be removed totally or seriously nerfed. As a possible replacement, I suggest that we convert P + S into a counterattack/grappling move button so that saber users can do physical attacks immediately after creating an openning in his opponent's defenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keshire Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Ok some quick ideas. Lose the katas. Or make them easily interrupted. Currenty, I think your revamped saber pass-through code causes them to be interrupted when they connect. And I second the counterattack/grapple idea. I would also like to state that a parry or broken parry should stun the person for a second, or at least slow them down. As it is, a person sent into a parry or broken parry can back away pretty fast to avoid most oncoming attacks. I also mentioned this to ReneGade, but I think the kick should break locks. Then you have breaking the lock by win or loss breaking the lock by force push breaking the lock by kicking the attacker away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Chemix Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I've seen 4-5 sword packs I've seen 4-5 saber packs there are about as many swordpacks being released now as saber packs for jka In JKO there were almost no sword mods I consider it an increase Ur still overcomplicating the system, your making it way to complex, it might ruin the mod if nobody understands how to fight anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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