Puzzlebox Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 I didn't like Rise of Nations much at all actually, they some nice features but... About the relearning thing vostock my intention is to have 4 universal powers that are gained by both Jedi and Sith, they will gain these as they progress- Apprentice Padawan Knight Master An additional 8 powers are in the game, 4 go to the Jedi and 4 to the Sith, heroes or not. So it's (cumulative) Apprentice-2 Padawan-4 Knight-6 Master-8 Most of these would affect things that are easily manipulated like attack rate and such. I'm a bit mixed up with what you said about mixing up heroes Vostock, I think I could make what I'm saying less complex by not typing so much. A power is a special action. Lets say there are 25 special actions in the game. I do not define the action by a given hero. The number of powers available to the Jedi class is 8, Yoda will therefor have 8 powers, he does not differ from a normal jedi master in this regard. What makes him special is he is yoda, moves particularly fast when ordered to attack and is generally better stat wise than most units in the game. Yittreas would recieve no special action. His accuracy would be significantly increased and his line of sight would be greater. If he broke from a battle every so often and raised his arm up and little red bubbles appeared over the heads of Imperial Troops I don't think it would increase realism, Yoda force pushing every so often would, I know you didn't suggest the EE approach but thats the manifestation of my reasons against doing something like that. My system is less complicated than yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 How is yours less complicated than mine? You've got 25 special abilities, and I have 16. Your guys get to pick and choose their abilities, mine just have them. Or am I missing something? And you're still spelling my name with a 'c'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 I was using 25 as an example vistoc and it relates more to a game engine, as well 25 does not resemble my game. My guys don't pick and choose either, A Jedi apprentice will have the universal force power of force push and a light side power, he doesn't get to pick. A Sith apprentice will get the universal force power of force push and a dark side power, he doesn't get to pick. Each time the respective Jedi or Sith unit advances into their next their next level they will recieve one universal power and an additional power based on their alignment/whatever. App. Pad. Knt. Mstr. Light Light Light Light J J J J Universal Universal Universal Universal JS JS JS JS Dark Dark Dark Dark S S S S ------------------------------------------------ My system is far less complicated because it is practical. Heal-Needs no explanation. Rage-Doubled attack and attack rate for a period of time. Force Choke-Needs no explanation. Force Lightning-Needs no explanation. Your system involves four force powers and a bunch of these> No Reward Is Worth This-When activated, all friendly units near Solo will earn a reward for each enemy they destroy. The reward earned is added to the Credit stockpile. Leave That To Me-Target an enemy building or transport, and all garrisoned or transported units will be revealed. Buildings will also reveal any units they are training or upgrades they are performing. Alternatively, target a Power Supply to shut down the power. If the building is both a Power Supply and a production building, it will be powered down and the production queue revealed. Kenobi is not revealed when performing this ability. We Make A Great Team-No matter where they are on the map, both Luke Skywalker and Han Solo will gain full Hit Points and their special abilities will be instantly recharged when this power is activated. Skywalker or Solo will not be effected if they are engaged in combat. Clumsy-When activated, all enemy units near Jar Jar will take a random amount of damage as he stumbles around accidentally unloading or dropping boomas. This is what giving units unique powers like that accomplishes. -Real time strategy game set in the Star Wars universe. -Play as one of four seperate factions and command over 300 units including the feared AT-AT or the agile X-Wing attack fighter. -Recruit legendary heroes with unique powers and abilities to help you conquer your foes. -Create your own epic adventures with the included scenario editor and play them online with your friends. -Official content from Star Wars Episode III: Sebubla Strikes Back. It sounds good V it just isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 See now I find that just way too complex. In terms of my template, Jedi advanced from Padawan, to Veteran Padawan, to Knight, to Veteran Knight. Along the way they recieve various bonus' like greater speed, armour, firepower, and abilities such as 'force push' but these are generic. For the Heroes, their bonus' cannot be upgraded, so there is no problem there. The trick here is to make the Jedi capable of being part of an army without needing too much micro-management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 2, 2004 Author Share Posted August 2, 2004 It is too complex, that is much more than most people would like to remember, especially when first starting to play a game, some of those powers as well would hardly ever be used, if ever. As for the micromanagement the powers I included will be handled easily by a decent behavior script, as well the computer will use be able to utilize all of them rather than some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 So Pesslebackz, does your idea use any Heroes apart from Jedi and Sith? Or are Jedi and Sith not really "Heroes" either, in that you can build several of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I think a few more craft from the movies should be in vostok's idea and to that end the link here has data about one craft the seperatists should have the Nantex Class Fighter from the films. I suppose it's fortunate i kept my webspace operational http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo1.jpg http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo1a.jpg http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo2.jpg http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/geo2a.jpg sorry about the zoom making it that close i don't know why it does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Your links don't work, though I am very interested to see what you're referring to since I already have every unit from the movies in my design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Perhaps This Should Work instead? http://dk_viceroy.tripod.com/Images.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 Yeah that works. I'd forgotten why I'd taken the Geonosians out, then I remembered their actually one of the minor factions now. Look here: http://vostok.150m.com/New/MinorFactions.html#Geonosians Keep in mind though my design needs to be fixed up, it's in a bit of a state of disrepair at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 Originally posted by Admiral Vostok So Pesslebackz, does your idea use any Heroes apart from Jedi and Sith? Or are Jedi and Sith not really "Heroes" either, in that you can build several of them? I know what a trap looks like. Yes vokstic my game does use heroes apart from Jedi and Sith ones. I don't see what you are getting at when you ask if Jedi and Sith are not really "heroes", you can build several Jedi and Sith yes, and no they are not heroes, they are Jedi and Sith who recieve Jedi and Sith powers. Heroes are units that served some important role in Star Wars and warrant seperate graphic sequences and stats than normal units. Darth Vader is an example of a hero, he would get his own sound bytes, icon, graphic sequences, and stats in as much that they are individually considered based upon his character from Star Wars. Our example is a Sith, this means he gets the abilities a Sith gets, he carries his own significance by being. If Darth Vader could blow fire from his ass I would be all for implementing it, but I don't remember that being in the movies, I'm sure its in the expanded universe we're both purists. It is infinitely better for the overall game not to give the RM heroes powers individual to the specific unit. If you go the EE route and give a few streamline powers for a class of hero then there is no hope. Doing so wastes the developers time by adding features that will scarcely be used no matter how good they are in namesake, it also makes scenario design much more difficult and eliminates possibilities by making certain things impossible and overcomplicating things that would normally be simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 No offence vostok but i think you've now got too many minor factions the geonosains were better in the confederacy i liked your plan better with them in. Pezzy Believe me nothing in any game is "not used" Vostok I can give you milions of pages of data if you needed it for your plan. It would be a pleasure since your plan is the best and will remain the best despite pezzy's claims. So we should use it as a base for a unifid forum game plan instead of everyone coming up with one and none of them being that good. Pezzy if you think you can make a game by all means do let us know when the beta's ready and we'll be expecting screenshots by the end of the year with comprehensive coverage and of course the right to point and laugh when you give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Viceroy, Vostok would not like fact files since most of the stuff that is taken from EU. Puzzticles if you don't give heroes some form of superiority then there really is no point for them in RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 They are superior frozentits, the same way they were superior in the movies. Its not warranted to invent more ways to make superior out of thin air when they all ready are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Viceroy: As Frozticles said, while the vehicles themselves are not EU, much of the "datafiles" on them are. In particular I find the info on the Geonosian Fighters to be lacking; looking at AotC, the Geonosian Fighters clearly have some sort of flak ability in the lasers. Not only is the purple colouring of their lasers indicating they are in some way different to standard red and green lasers, but the way the lasers burst into black clouds without hitting anything demonstrates this too. For some reason, all the datafiles I've read make no mention of these flak-lasers, though they are obviously there. Also, I don't think I have too many minor civs at all. As Windu pointed out in another thread, the Geonosians only fought alongside the Confederacy because it was their planet that was being invaded, so the Geonosians should not really be made a part of the Confederacy civ. I sincerely doubt we'll see any Geonosian Fighters in the opening space battle of Episode III. Besides, since I combined the Trade Federation and the Confederacy into one civ, they've got more than enough units as it is; they don't need any more in the form of Geonosians. PezDispenser: So how many powers will your rank-and-file Jedi have access to? I've only given my Padawans one power and my Knights one power, both of which are cast automatically at an interval like special abilities in Age of Mythology. However, the individual Jedi/Sith Masters (Vader, Skywalker, Kenobi, Dooku, Jinn) have two generic powers each (so their familiar to players instantly) and one unique power. Having to learn a single unique power is not too taxing, so the disadvantage are minimal, yet this single bit of uniqueness helps add variety between the civs so they aren't totally alike. Dooku fights differently to Vader in the movies; I want to reflect this in the game. The same analogy goes for the other heroes; their most important power is generic, and their secondary power is unique to make them appear different to their counterparts in other civs. I will not make all their powers generic as you're suggesting. Doing so will make them less unique and more like boring generic civs of the kind we see in games like RoN and EE. Since the important powers are aura abilities, which you don't have to cast, people will certainly use them, because if they didn't they don't gain the benefits that their enemy will probably be getting from their Heroes. When it comes down to it, the Unique abilities may not be used all that much, but their primary purpose is to provide uniqueness amongst the Heroes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 "When it comes down to it, the Unique abilities may not be used all that much, but their primary purpose is to provide uniqueness amongst the Heroes." Well mine would be, Vader throwing his lightsaber at Luke or Palpatine Electricuting a group of rebel troopers is a lot more fun than "Leave that to Me" or "Clumsy" and it actually reflects Star Wars. "I will not make all their powers generic as you're suggesting. Doing so will make them less unique and more like boring generic civs of the kind we see in games like RoN and EE." None of the factions will be boring because they all have seperate art work and units. To the overall point about powers lets look at human behavior, we as human beings learn better when we are more interested in something, you said your powers may not be used all that much, if the powers you intend to include remotely resemble the ones noted then they certainly would not be used all that much at all and would be a waste of time to implement. The Jedi/Sith/Universal powers I have included is twelve 4J 4U 4S Jedi get the 4 for light side and the 4 universal powers, Sith get the 4 for the dark side and the 4 universal. Players will enjoy playing around with the powers and will pick them up quickly. ---Question for you people--- If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is not realistic to Star Wars or 8 force powers that are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 None of the factions will be boring because they all have seperate art work and units.You mean like how none of the RoN factions were boring because they all had separate artwork and units? That's way too many powers for the Jedi and Sith. That many powers will turn the game into a hero-fest like WarCraft3, particularly if you're suggesting rank-and-file Jedi and Sith will get these powers. I challenge you to list 12 powers that we see from the movies. If you think my unique powers aren't the best representations of the characters from the movies, I'm open to suggestion for replacements. But the unique abilities are staying so the Heroes are still interesting between civs. ---Question for you people--- If you had Darth Vader in an RM Map in addition to a massive army would you rather have one force power and one unique power that is realistic enough and quick to use or 8 force powers that will require concentration that will make the rest of your army suffer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 All seperate artwork and all seperate units. Three words, unit behavior scripts. You know that there were not 12 used in the movies and you wish to capitalize on this, they are realistic to Star Wars. ? I wasn't trying to get you to change anything I'm arguing your logic. The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Originally posted by Puzzlebox You know that there were not 12 used in the movies and you wish to capitalize on this, they are realistic to Star Wars. Not sure how it can be realistic to Star Wars if it wasn't in the movies. I thought you were a Purist like me?The answer to your question is one force power and one unique power.Ah good, so you agree my way is better when taken in the context of the army as a whole rather than using the individual Hero like you would in WC3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I thought jedi were going to be used as a surgical strike weapon like commandos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 Lets just diagram one of the powers that wasn't in the movies, Rage-This is a dark side power, it affects attack and attack rate by increasing them and drops defense significantly. This makes perfect sense and sees wide use via the Sith. The answer to your second question is most definitely not, the question you asked made it quite clear that the rest of my army was going to suffer because I had to concentrate too much on the 8 force powers. Ask a less biased question and you will get a more objectively sound answer. Scenario:Vader and a massive army in a large battle, well Vader can take care of himself but those missile troopers are going to shoot down my ties that are on the way... 2, or 8. As for computer use, Unit Behavior Scripts, as for player use powers won't be able to cast that many and a lot of them are stat effects which remain for a period of time. *Edit* He probablyly meant about scare units power which would be used at a distance, that withstanding I wouldn't use Vader anywhere near where it could get him killed nor would most players. As well 8 would add to the strategy a player employs when using the hero, more so than one unique power would, the 8 are they themselves specific because of what they do and the situation they affect i.e. blaster deflection, defense, speed etc... There is no question which system is better. "WarCraft III where heroes can take on entire armies" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Actually rage is a star wars power from the movies Luke gave in to his anger and used his rage and attacked vader and sliced his had off remeber? For purists you really don't know the movies that well do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I never said Rage wasn't a justifiable power. Now all we need is 11 more justifiable powers. As a Truth Bearer you should know Purism doesn't mean extreme knowledge of the movies. A Star Wars Scholar has extreme knowledge of the movies. I just happen to be both a Star Wars Purist and a Star Wars Scholar. Puzzlebox, what bias? The game is going to involve both individual Heroes and large scale battles, as such my scenario is a typical one and not biased in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puzzlebox Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 That doesn't count Force Choke Force Lightning Throw Saber Force Speed Mind Trick etc... You can't say that that rage had anything to do with a force power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Of course it has to do with a Force power. Why are the Emperor and Vader always telling Luke to give in to his hate? And Throw Saber is not a Force Power. I have no Force Powers but I could throw a lightsaber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.